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jmcrae
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The human aspect is that people don’t have the attention span for more than one at a time. The Mass is human, as well as divine.
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pnewton
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Are you speaking of the faithful, or of the priest?The human aspect is that people don’t have the attention span for more than one at a time. The Mass is human, as well as divine.
I was thinking of something similar to your last sentence and I was wondering if perhaps this practice might have something to do with the accommodation for humanity, meaning, the shortcomings of those who ask for these intentions. If you are referring to the priest, then the effacacy of the Mass has never depended upon the ability of the priest to concentrate. Yet I can see making accommodation for our humanity.
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jmcrae
Guest
I am primarily thinking of myself, as a communicant, remembering at the time of Holy Communion not only my own private intention for the Mass, but also the public intention (if it was announced) to offer up in my reception of Holy Communion.Are you speaking of the faithful, or of the priest?
I think that’s definitely a factor - it would certainly be very human for someone to think or wonder, "why was my Mass intention coupled with that one? Does the priest even really remember my name, these days?I was thinking of something similar to your last sentence and I was wondering if perhaps this practice might have something to do with the accommodation for humanity, meaning, the shortcomings of those who ask for these intentions.
I also know that our secretary dreads to hear that a Mass has been canceled for some reason, and that she has to inform a family that their Mass intention is being moved to another Mass. It can be very emotional for families to deal with this kind of change, especially if the Mass intention is close to their hearts.
I am sure it would not be endurable for her to have to call several people, if there had been several Mass intentions stacked on to that Mass.
No, of course not - which is why we are also encouraged to bring our own private intentions to Mass, to join them with the public intention for whomever has asked for the Mass for their loved one.If you are referring to the priest, then the effacacy of the Mass has never depended upon the ability of the priest to concentrate. Yet I can see making accommodation for our humanity.
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Phemie
Guest
But what it says is that each time an offering is made, a separate Mass must be celebrated.I know little of canon law, but in the English, this is not the literal interpretation of 948.
I found this article:
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CCLSTIPN.HTM
and
Thus, it seems that it is not multiple intentions that is being addressed by 948, but simony. What I do not understand is why anyone would object to having another intention said at a Mass with their intention. Is it superstition or a lack of grasp of infinity? Grace cut in half remains the same.
So if 30 people each give a stipend and request a Mass for Jim Brown, Fr. must celebrate 30 different Masses. If one person gives one single offering for a Mass for Jim Brown, Joe Black and John White, Fr. celebrates one Mass for the three together.
We have a woman who always requests Masses for “Lester and his Nan & Pop” and we always announce it as ‘For Lester P. and his Nan & Pop’ at the request of “Lester’s mom”. When she first requested these Masses she wasn’t sure how to name herself since she had remarried and her son’s surname was different from hers. I suggested simply “Lester’s mom”. She was grateful to be able to have herself listed that way and that’s always how she requests that they be announced. She usually contacts the parish at the end of the year and books one Mass/month for the next year, including one of the Christmas Masses (she’s the only one I’ve ever had request a Christmas Mass).
The person requesting a Mass can make it for any the intention of as many people as he/she wants.
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pnewton
Guest
Right. I understand that. The priest can not roll all thirty into one Mass. What is not prohibited in that canon is offering another intention for which there was no stipend.But what it says is that each time an offering is made, a separate Mass must be celebrated.
So if 30 people each give a stipend and request a Mass for Jim Brown, Fr. must celebrate 30 different Masses.
I am really just wondering if all this stipend business is past its time, at least where there is a salaried priest who is no longer dependent on stipends. I mean, if the offering of Mass for a deceased is not possible because of backlog, then I would think that we are not ministering to people in the best way.
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pnewton
Guest
I have actually found this topic to be fascinating. It seems the guidelines vary greatly from diocese to diocese. My own diocese has guidelines that deal almost exclusively with the money issue, capping a stipend at $5. Maybe that’s why my priest does not mess with it anymore. I saw that Atlanta allows $10 but mandates the Mass have a single intention. I think I will look up some more.
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Phemie
Guest
You mean I couldn’t offer a Mass for Mom & Dad, it would have to be one for Mom and one for Dad with two stipends? That doesn’t seem kosher.I have actually found this topic to be fascinating. It seems the guidelines vary greatly from diocese to diocese. My own diocese has guidelines that deal almost exclusively with the money issue, capping a stipend at $5. Maybe that’s why my priest does not mess with it anymore. I saw that Atlanta allows $10 but mandates the Mass have a single intention. I think I will look up some more.
Stipends in our parish are $10 but when the diocese transferred 1500 Masses to us they were all $5 stipends.
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pnewton
Guest
The document said that single intention may be multiple individuals. Here is where I found it:You mean I couldn’t offer a Mass for Mom & Dad, it would have to be one for Mom and one for Dad with two stipends? That doesn’t seem kosher.
Stipends in our parish are $10 but when the diocese transferred 1500 Masses to us they were all $5 stipends.
archatl.com/offices/odw/docs/Stipend-Guidelines.pdf
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pnewton
Guest
I actually found a canon lawyer weighing in on this topic.
catholicexchange.com/mass-intentions-and-stipends/Note that it is also quite possible for a priest to say Mass for the intention for which a stipend has been given, and simultaneously for other intentions as well. He may, for example, celebrate a regularly scheduled parish Mass for which some parishioner has provided an intention (and a stipend), but at the same time he may perhaps have in mind the intention of his elderly mother. In fact, he may have as many intentions as he likes while offering a Mass, so long as he has accepted a stipend for no more than one of them. While on the surface this may seem illogical, keep in mind that the spiritual value of a single Mass is infinite. The intention for which a stipend was offered is not somehow getting short-shrift if the celebrant offers that same Mass for other intentions as well!
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Phemie
Guest
So he can add non-stipended intentions to a stipended Mass, but not another intention for which he’s received a stipend.I actually found a canon lawyer weighing in on this topic.
catholicexchange.com/mass-intentions-and-stipends/
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pnewton
Guest
This canon lawyer believes it is permitted. On the other hand, I found one diocese already where it was not allowed by the bishop.So he can add non-stipended intentions to a stipended Mass, but not another intention for which he’s received a stipend.
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Deo_Gratias42
Guest
Because it makes it less efficacious for the other intention.What I do not understand is why anyone would object to having another intention said at a Mass with their intention. Is it superstition or a lack of grasp of infinity? Grace cut in half remains the same.
This is from the Moral Theology book that is used at the seminary for the FSSP.
523. - 3. The effects of the Mass that are received by an individual in consequence of the special application of the priest (fructus ministeriales) are, according to the common opinion both extensively and intensively finite in virtue of the positive will of Christ.
Wherefore, the greater the number of person for whom the Mass is being said, the less fruits will the individuals receive. And the more Masses that are applied for a person the greater will he benefit thereby.
A priest must offer a Mass for each stipend received, and he may not satisfy another obligation by a Mass for which he has accepted a stipend (C 825), not even if he wishes to apply the spiritual benefits according to himself (fructus specialissimus) to others. - The priest may accept additional compensation for a Mass besides the stipend for the application, but only if it is certain that the added re-numeration is given exclusively for the celebration and not for the application of the Mass (C 825).
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pnewton
Guest
If that was true (it would surprise me if it was), do you know where this is in Church teaching? It seems to go against what St. Therese said about the grace of God. I am reminded of the story she told here:Because it makes it less efficacious for the other intention.
Thèrése often testified to the wealth of grace that was constantly being poured out by the divine giver. She used an example from her childhood when her older sister Leonie thought herself too old to be playing with dolls, and she held out a basket of playthings to her younger sisters saying, “Choose one.” Thèrése wanted everything offered her and taking the entire basket replied, “I choose all.” So too with the graces offered her by God,Thèrése said, “I choose all.”
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Don’t get me wrong. I don’t doubt something because it comes from a traditional source. But we St. Therese is a doctor of the Church for a reason. We may still have something to learn. I found this written by a priest in Kansas:
But we can and should also offer this grace (which is infinite because of the infinite value of Jesus’ life) for others. The “Mass intention” is the person the priest is specially intending this grace to be given to. Of course, there is plenty of grace to go around and grace is not limited to only the Mass intention, but only limited by our openness to it.
cure-of-ars.org/mass-intentions/
Perhaps this is a point where theological difference of opinion is allowable?
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pnewton
Guest
I also found this by Fr. Hoffman of Opus Dei. He has pretty sound credentials.
catholicnewsagency.com/column.php?n=1800It happens that the parish might receive more requested intentions than Masses are available. In that case, the pastor can ‘bundle’ a bunch of intentions once or twice a week and load those intentions on to one Mass so long as the person requesting the Mass knows the Mass is for more than one intention. In that case, no one loses out because there is an infinite amount of grace available at each and every Mass. (cf. Decree Mos iugiter obtinuit from the Congregation for the Clergy, 1991)
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Deo_Gratias42
Guest
The book I’m using is Moral Theology by Fr. Heribert Jone. It has an imprimatur, a imprimi potest and two nihil obstats officially declaring that the book is free from doctrinal and and moral error. Further, this book has been in print for many decades and has a good reputation. The book can be trusted.
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pnewton
Guest
Yet it contradicts others that can be trusted. It is not official Church teaching just because it has an imprimateur. That only means that one bishop’s office has determined that it is free from doctrinal error, not that everything is true Church doctrine. There is a huge difference.The book I’m using is Moral Theology by Fr. Heribert Jone. It has an imprimatur, a imprimi potest and two nihil obstats officially declaring that the book is free from doctrinal and and moral error. Further, this book has been in print for many decades and has a good reputation. The book can be trusted.
I linked what I quoted so that everyone could check it out for themselves. The one man I quoted had excellent credintials that anyone could use for comparison. I think it helpful to be able to verify everything. Does anyone know where there is other Church teaching on that can be linked?
I guess I should ask for current doctrine. The book linked is from the 18th century.
amazon.com/Moral-Theology-Heribert-Jone/dp/0895554720
This does bring up a good point. Perhaps there are some bishops that operate on this belief and that is why they limit Masses to one intention, so as not to “dilute” the grace.
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