The problem with Fatima

[JoshuaIsLord]

I think some Catholics have a problem with Fatima more along the lines with the way they have problems with Protestants cramming their beliefs down the throats of others. There a number of Catholics at my church that have problem with all of the Fatima propaganda material being displayed. It should not be in ones field of vision that contains the Crucifix and the Tabernacle.

 

[Richca]

The depiction of hell as a literal lake of fire is scriptural. For example in Revelation 21:8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” One thing I have noticed in the authentic marian apparitions or those approved by the Church is that her reported message is scriptural, has its roots in Holy Scripture. Mary speaks the language of Holy Scripture, the word of God. In fact, Mary is the mother of the Word of God. Mary is not going to contradict the word of God. In fact, if some proposed apparition of Mary did contradict Holy Scripture, I think the authenticity of such apparition would be suspect and questionable.

The only knowledge we have about hell is what God has pleased to reveal to us in Holy Scripture. Fatima and the private revelations of various saints generally conform to the ‘picture’ or depiction of hell scripture gives us. Anything beyond scripture is pure speculation, imagination, and opinion.

 

[pnewton]

The depiction of hell as a literal lake of fire is scriptural.

“Depiction” and “literal” are two words I have not seen used like this. I guess you could also say the depiction of Jesus is that he literally has a sharpened sword for a tongue and a literal body of a dead lamb.

 

[Richca]

What you say about Jesus is an obvious metaphor. Where it is written in Revelation 21:8 presumably about hell ‘their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulpher, which is the second death’ is not readily obvious that this is said metaphorically if at all. As I said, sister Lucia’s description of the vision of hell as a “vast sea of fire as it were…” conforms to Rev. 21:8 as well as to the ‘fire’ mentioned by Jesus a number of times about hell.

As a side note and rather quite interesting, the location of hell in the tradition of the Church has been generally assigned to be in the earth or under the earth or in the heart or center of the earth. Although we don’t appear to have an explicit revelation from God about this, theologians have concluded this location as reasonable from various texts of scripture. For example, it is an article of the faith that Jesus descended into hell, i.e., his soul after he died and before his resurrection. This is not the hell of the damned but nevertheless a hell that is a descent. And then Jesus ascended into heaven where we hope to be with him someday for all eternity. So, heaven is upwards and hell is downwards. In the vision of hell that the fatima children saw, sister Lucia says that Our Lady opened her hands and rays of light appeared to penetrate the earth (looking into the earth as it were). What do we find in the earth? Well, it’s very hot for one thing with lots of molten or liquid rock and various metals, a fiery sea or lake as it were of some very hot material… Scientists speculate that the outer liquid core of iron has also substantial amounts of sulfer. They believe sulfer is also in the inner core. Also, recently, some scientists claim to have found evidence of hidden vast oceans of water in the earth.

 

[Bea2345]

Yes, that has been a complaint of mine since I was a child. I had read the old testament bible from cover to cover, but suddenly my mother purchased a new testament bible (very fancy I might add) and she gave it to me to look at. When I opened it, I was confronted by a huge picture of the pope. I fully expected to see a picture of Jesus. I was angry and gave it back to her. Even as a child I remember thinking he was trying to portray himself as God. I too believe that about the Fatima letters. It was not the decision of the pope’s to make.

 

[omgriley]

Read the book “Hell” by Fr. F.X. Schouppe, S.J. It documents literally hundreds of saints whose visions of hell describe the place exactly as was shown by Our Lady. Besides, where has the Church moved away from this position?

The Catechism states its very plainly: “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.” CCC 1035

In any event, the authenticity of the Fatima apparitions have been upheld by the Church, which has the explicit power of Discernemnt of Spirits. If the Church says it’s authentic, it’s authentic. Open, shut.

 

[AlNg]

the location of hell in the tradition of the Church has been generally assigned to be in the earth or under the earth or in the heart or center of the earth.

it’s very hot for one thing with lots of molten or liquid rock and various metals, a fiery sea or lake as it were of some very hot material…

Hell is everlasting fire. The heat in the center of the earth is not everlasting.

 

[commenter]

There a number of Catholics at my church that have problem with all of the Fatima propaganda material being displayed. It should not be in ones field of vision that contains the Crucifix and the Tabernacle.

In many areas, a Catholic is lucky if the Crucifix and Tabernacle are in the same field of vision, preferably at the focus of the church, with the altar in the same field. In many cases the renovation fanatics remove the real Crucifix and insert a stylized “Floating Jesus” one; they put the Tabernacle in a remote location, so a newcomer takes awhile to figure out where it is, and awhile to figure out where the altar is.

 

[Onestepahead]

Yep…while visiting a new church this past Sunday, I realized that I’d just genuflected to a plant.

Beneath the Floating Jesus on the back wall of the church was a tabernacle-sized box, and it was covered with plant foliage. It wasn’t until I was seated and looked off to the right of the altar area that I saw the actual tabernacle.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

In many areas, a Catholic is lucky if the Crucifix and Tabernacle are in the same field of vision, preferably at the focus of the church, with the altar in the same field. In many cases the renovation fanatics remove the real Crucifix and insert a stylized “Floating Jesus” one; they put the Tabernacle in a remote location, so a newcomer takes awhile to figure out where it is, and awhile to figure out where the altar is.

And that truly reflects the current sad state of our churches. The Tabernacle should be Front & Center. The Focus of our attention. The Crucifix is secondary to that.

 

[JoshuaIsLord]

Yep…while visiting a new church this past Sunday, I realized that I’d just genuflected to a plant.

Beneath the Floating Jesus on the back wall of the church was a tabernacle-sized box, and it was covered with plant foliage. It wasn’t until I was seated and looked off to the right of the altar area that I saw the actual tabernacle.

Another Church I was at, the Tabernacle is located in a chamber off of the Vestibule, New People come in not knowing that the Tabernacle is there and don’t genuflect and proceeded to the hall where the Mass is conducted and genuflect toward the Altar.

And the regulars lollygag in close proximity to the Tabernacle disrespecting what it contains.

My family did not stay long at that church.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Hell is everlasting fire. The heat in the center of the earth is not everlasting.

In the current world, the core is not eternal. However, after the resurrection, when the world is perfected and when the damned individuals will once again be a body-soul composite, it is not unreasonable to conclude that the Earth’s core would be perfected and everlasting like the rest of the new creation.

That said, it doesn’t really matter where it is, what’s important is what it is, and what it is is eternal fire and torment. Whether that be the center of the Earth, the center of a star, or somewhere else we have no real conception of, it’s something you want to avoid at all costs.

 

[gmcbroom]

I think the apparition is genuine. I realize for the view of fire may be distasteful but if Jesus himself talks about fire then his mother showing children this shouldn’t be that surprising. Also, for the second question it was my understanding that our lady said the child was in purgatory until the end of the world not the end of Time. Since the world will end this isn’t that bad. It’s still a long time but when you consider those destined for hell will be there forever. Til the end of the world will happen sooner.

 

[abucs]

I don’t think visions are supposed to be like video tapes. They seem to be more a visual representation of spiritual realities.

Like Daniel interpreting the dream of Nebuchadnezzar with his statue made of four metals representing four kingdoms, The dream/vision Nebuchadnezzar saw of the giant statue doesn’t actually exist. That is not to say Hell doesn’t exist but it is not necessarily as portrayed in the vision.

In this way I don’t see Mary being deceitful. In any case I would think the vision, if that is what it was, would be granted by God, not Mary.

 

[dallas_r]

In all honesty, if Amelia is going to purgatory (I assume she was very innocent) I’m probably going to hell

 

[almost2]

L.a. marzulie released a teaching that depicts it as being a UFO situation. Especially with the spinning sun belief.

 

[Gertabelle]

L.a. marzulie released a teaching that depicts it as being a UFO situation. Especially with the spinning sun belief.

Someone can believe in UFOs, but God sending a messenger to call us to repentance, and a brief miracle is too hard to believe.



The lengths some people will go to…

 

[otjm]

The General Instructions of the Roman Missal appear to say otherwise, contrary to your opinion: "315. It is more appropriate as a sign that on an altar on which Mass is celebrated there not be a tabernacle in which the Most Holy Eucharist is reserved.[127]

Consequently, it is preferable that the tabernacle be located, according to the judgment of the Diocesan Bishop:

a) either in the sanctuary, apart from the altar of celebration, in a appropriate form and place, not excluding its being positioned on an old altar no longer used for celebration (cf. no. 303);

b) or even in some chapel suitable for the private adoration and prayer of the faithful[128] and organically connected to the church and readily noticeable by the Christian faithful."

 

[almost2]

Yes god can send any creature to tell his people to repent.
And today’s society ignores this also.

Hmmm no one gets any smarter?
I guess the prophet Jeremiah the weeping prophet. Was ignored

 

[almost2]

That’s a good point.
Trying to live a "chaste"life is difficult without the spiritual anointing to recognize what will lead us astray.
Then it Opps start again.