The problem with Fatima

[tp3192000]

It’s also stated that Lucia suffered extreme scrupulosity as an adult and some of her statements must be taken in that context.

Scruples. That is such an outdated term. What is scrupulosity? I take it to mean that she has doubts such as she said her prayers correctly after she had said them, according to the context I remember reading of her.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I know she at least said something similar. I think she did say that praying for certain souls would not get them out of purgatory any sooner because the severity of their sins demands his justice. He did say that said prayers would be applied to some other needy soul.

 

[commenter]

It’s also stated that Lucia suffered extreme scrupulosity as an adult and some of her statements must be taken in that context.

Jim

Unless a source has direct evidence from a spiritual director, confessor, or psychologist who personally met with her, I would discount any diagnosis of her, or anyone else. Given confidentiality requirements, that is unlikely.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It would be good to hear from an expert on how indulgences work exactly.

Since God utilizes them according to His will, I think you would have to ask Him how he decides who gets what.

 

[commenter]

I just finished reading a book with the actual documents, interviews and investigations on Fatima.

Even in the book it states that the reader will end up with some concerns.

According to Lucia, the Blessed Mother told her that their friend, Amelia, would be in Purgatory until the end of time. if that’s the fate of a child, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Only the Magisterium is qualified to approve a given private revelation, or part of a revelation, as worthy of belief. Even if something was stated and recorded right there at the first investigations, that does not mean it is credible to be expressed by Mary. Even if something is related by Lucia much later, in the 4th edition of some journal, that does not mean it is not credible.

In both cases, if the Magisterium deems it credible, it would be worthy of belief. If the Magisterium did not review or approve it, it is not.

(It is my understanding that much of the later disclosed revelations, perhaps after 1930, are probably not part of the approved private revelation. But if the Magisterium approves it, it would be.)

Since all these Fatima revelations are coming about 19 centuries after Mary lived on Earth, a couple decades one way or the other in the 20th century is not much difference. But the Magisterium review, does matter.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Scrupulosity essentially means seeing one’s behavior as making them sinful and destined for hell.

They lack the faith and trust in God’s mercy and believe that the path to salvation is only for those with the strongest willpower which they lack in themselves and therefore are in danger of hell.

It’s a contradiction to what Jesus revealed to us.

If you believe Scrupulosity is an outdated term, you must be new to this forum. Stick around and see.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And the Blessed Mother never said this to her or the other two children in the visions, according to their statements given in several interrogations over the decades.

Many of Lucia’s statements came when she was an adult nun and as stated before, she suffered from extreme levels of scrupulosity.

Some of what Lucia wrote in later years in her memoirs, contradict what Jesus told Sister Faustina about His Divine Mercy for those who seek it.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This is written in the book “Documents On Fatima & The Memoirs of Sister Lucia.” by Father Robert J. Fox.

The author used all the documents about Fatima and Sister Lucia, known at the time and upto 2002.

He also states about the contradictions between what the visionaries said the Blessed Mother told to them, and Sister Lucia’s later memoirs.

He merely advises us to use discretion.

Jim

 

[Kei]

She wanted to be a saint.
She did not want any time in purgatory.
So, Sister Lucia likely did not want to offend God even slightly.

This may be called scrupulous by some, but I don’t think it is

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The Magisterium approved the visions as worthy of belief, not the later statements and memoirs written by Sister Lucia.

As you correctly state, that it’s private revelation.

Catholics obligated to believe, in the apparitions.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So don’t we all not want to offend God,

However, what offends God according to a scrupulous person is often misunderstood.

They often do things which God never intends.

St Catherine of Siena, while bating the sores of a leper had feelings of disgust, When she realized it she felt ashamed for this feeling and chose to drink the water she had just bathed the leper with.

God would never have demanded this of her for his love. He approved of her desire for humility, but she misunderstood that the feelings she felt were normal human feelings and not something to feel guilty about.

JIm

 

[Kei]

Yes, but in what way was Sister Lucia actually scrupulous?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Just as I posted earlier.

She suffered from extreme scrupulosity.

Jim

 

[Spyridon]

Why do you associate symbology with deceit?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The bottom line with regards to Fatima goes, understand that the Blessed Mother didn’t appear to the children to condemn us, but to provide a message of hope for all who are faithful.

Remember, God’s love isn’t conditional.

He doesn’t hold a shopping list of our sins so that he can send us to eternal torment.

As St Pope John Paul II said, “God doesn’t send anyone to hell, they go there on their own.”

Not accepting God’s love and loving other’s as he commands, is the way to hell, but it is done willfully, not through ignorance.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Never said symbology is deceit, but not fully understood until the event given has passed.

Pope John Paul II’s assassination attempt was not understood as being in the Third Secret of Fatima, until it took place. Even then, the Holy Pope, had to ask Lucia if this is what was predicted in the Secret. Lucia herself did not know beforehand that it would be Pope John Paul II specifically, until it took place. She then confirmed to Pope John Paul II, that it was him of whom the secret was about.

Jim

 

[Kei]

But how? What actually leads to this claim of her suffering extreme scrupulosity?

 

[commenter]

This is written in the book “Documents On Fatima & The Memoirs of Sister Lucia.” by Father Robert J. Fox.

The author used all the documents about Fatima and Sister Lucia, known at the time and upto 2002.

He also states about the contradictions between what the visionaries said the Blessed Mother told to them, and Sister Lucia’s later memoirs.

He merely advises us to use discretion.

Jim

This priest (I think he since passed away) is a reliable source.

 

[stpurl]

I’m going to be wildly unpopular saying this, but IMO the average Catholic/Christian in these times needs to be paying a bit more attention to pleasing God. It’s so easy for the ‘enlightened’ to label this as scrupulosity, AKA, **_“doing more than I think necessary, therefore being overboard and wrong”, but seriously, today’s ‘average Catholic/Christian has been systematically fed the idea that being a ‘good person’ and ‘loving God’ (a god who just wants them to ‘be happy’ and is all about happiness and never about sacrifice, the Cross, suffering, etc) is all that one ‘needs._**’ Prayer? "Looking at the sky and thinking, "how cool’ is a fair example of today’s ‘prayer life’. Alms? Pffft. A dollar in the collection plate on the rare Sunday one attends, a fast $5 or $10 to some social justice cause, and we are puffed up with our generosity. Fasting? Only if we’re on a diet or fitness kick. All those ‘old traditions’ are so unnecessary. And if we start to feel uncomfortable, that maybe we’re ‘lacking’, we can be told how great we are and that those feelings are simply the relics of ‘scrupulosity’ or some other ‘bad thing’ that is being pushed on us by mean nasty rigid Pharisees. Get with the mercy people. God meets us where we are and demands NOTHING.

That’s why people ‘have problems’ with Fatima. Deep down they know that wonderful as they are, "We are unworthy servants, we have done only what we are supposed to do’ when we can always do more. . .more loving. And hearing that somebody ‘just like us’ should have done more makes us worry. We don’t LIKE worrying. We want salvation assurance in that we ‘live good lives’, therefore we should ‘get Heaven’ from "merciful God’, without having to pick up our cross etc.

That young woman might be ‘in purgatory to the end of time’ but you know what? At the end, SHE GETS HEAVEN. Which is more than any of us ‘deserve’.

 

[Usagi]

There are people on these very forums that suffer from scrupulosity. It’s not just that they take the Faith and it’s moral demands seriously, it’s that they worry constantly whether the tiniest thought is damning them to Hell. It’s an actual mental illness, a variety of obsessive-compulsive disorder. Their brains are lying to them and causing them suffering. This is not simply a healthy conscience.