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JamalChristophr
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I think one needs to be careful when making an accusation or pronouncement like that. It may be true, it may not be.
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stpurl
Guest
Yes, that is true. There are people who suffer from scrupulosity. There are also those who suffer from many other disorders. There is no ‘one-size-fits-all’ criteria. But that does not mean that because some people suffer from scrupulosity that there can be no communication which might ‘trigger’ the scruples. Otherwise we cannot spread the gospel at all, because any given word or passage might cause a person to suffer. For the sake of somehow avoiding one person’s disordered (this is NOT a judgment or a finding of them being at fault) worry, though, we ignore the millions and millions who need the gospel preached. So. . .do we trust in Jesus that He will be able to deal with the few who have legitimate issues, and keep on preaching Him, knowing we all ‘need to hear the Truth’, trying to be as sensitive as possible, or do we dither and twist so that we wind up tying ourselves in knots, lost in a morass of "this is the truth–but please don’t be offended’, “this is the truth, but not necessarily for you right now”, ‘this is the truth, but of course there are other truths, even those that are absolutely contradictory to this, and that’s all right’.
Are we in our concern actually fueling people to more scrupulosity in our attempts to ‘quiet’ the truth or to give them blanket soothing advice?
Are we in our concern actually fueling people to more scrupulosity in our attempts to ‘quiet’ the truth or to give them blanket soothing advice?
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JamalChristophr
Guest
You draw a false conclusion here. Entertaining the premise that the blessed mother was showing them a metaphorical vision of hell, one cannot conclude that doing so was deceit. a metaphorical vision can help one to see the truth of something they could otherwise not fully comprehend. Deceiving is defined as intentionally misrepresenting the truth. Our Lady was communicating to them a truth of the faith by the vision, and that is far from deceit.
By your logic, an angel would be deceiving a person because, although the angel is a purely spiritual being, it expressed itself to a person in a manner that made them look as though they were some physical thing in the world visible to the human eye.
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JimR-OCDS
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I’m not sure, but for it to be printed in the book, the sources would be reliable. It was probably those who knew her, her formation and spiritual directors as well as herself who said she was scrupulous.
Jim
Jim
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The problem with your statements are that it brings the message of misery rather than joy in the Gospel Message. God does not want us to be miserable. If he did, then we should stop praying for people who suffer for they’re pleasing God more.
My own father, who became wheelchair bound at age 43, believed that his suffering was his ticket to heaven. When we brought him to a healing service by Father D’Oreo, my Dad shook his head that he would not be healed, for if he was, he’d lose his ticket to heaven.
He got this idea from stories about Fatima. Did he make it to heaven ? Only God knows for sure and I still pray for his soul.
Often people who are following scrupulous ideas about suffering, not only bring suffering upon themselves, but destroy hope of salvation in others. Faith in Jesus didn’t bring them, hope, joy and love, but misery in worrying about their sins. They’re so focused on sin management, they forgot about God’s love, or never experienced it in the first place.
As St Theresa of Lisieux said, in response to people using corporal mortifications, she said, “there are enough thorns in life without having to add our own.” Often, it’s a source of spiritual pride when people inflict physical punishment on themselves as if God will love them more.
It would be worth for everyone who has a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, to go and read the actual words the Blessed Mother spoke to the visionaries.
“Most souls go to hell,” is a popular statement used here in CAF, but the Blessed Mother never made such a statement to the children at Fatima.
Also, I was surprised to learn that Lucia, never saw the miracle of the sun. Instead, she saw the St Joseph, holding the Baby Jesus, and the Blessed Mother. Those there at the time, saw the sun, move around, others saw it come closer to earth drying everything up.
The devotion to our Blessed Mother is wonderful and part of my life as a Discalced Carmelite, but the apparitions must be understood in context and with clarity.
Jim
My own father, who became wheelchair bound at age 43, believed that his suffering was his ticket to heaven. When we brought him to a healing service by Father D’Oreo, my Dad shook his head that he would not be healed, for if he was, he’d lose his ticket to heaven.
He got this idea from stories about Fatima. Did he make it to heaven ? Only God knows for sure and I still pray for his soul.
Often people who are following scrupulous ideas about suffering, not only bring suffering upon themselves, but destroy hope of salvation in others. Faith in Jesus didn’t bring them, hope, joy and love, but misery in worrying about their sins. They’re so focused on sin management, they forgot about God’s love, or never experienced it in the first place.
The crosses we bear must come from life and not from what we place on ourselves and others.
As St Theresa of Lisieux said, in response to people using corporal mortifications, she said, “there are enough thorns in life without having to add our own.” Often, it’s a source of spiritual pride when people inflict physical punishment on themselves as if God will love them more.
If you’re referring to the woman Lucia asked the Blessed Mother about in the first apparition, the “end of time,” statement was never made by the Blessed Mother, per every interview of Lucia and the other two children had and of which are documented. Lucia added it in her fourth memoir when she was an adult nun.;
It would be worth for everyone who has a devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, to go and read the actual words the Blessed Mother spoke to the visionaries.
“Most souls go to hell,” is a popular statement used here in CAF, but the Blessed Mother never made such a statement to the children at Fatima.
Also, I was surprised to learn that Lucia, never saw the miracle of the sun. Instead, she saw the St Joseph, holding the Baby Jesus, and the Blessed Mother. Those there at the time, saw the sun, move around, others saw it come closer to earth drying everything up.
The devotion to our Blessed Mother is wonderful and part of my life as a Discalced Carmelite, but the apparitions must be understood in context and with clarity.
Jim
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stpurl
Guest
Well, Jim, I do not accept that my statements encourage some kind of false “misery over mercy”. Your father’s thoughts were his (and you cannot be perfectly sure you understood what was in his heart, to boot, and that you didn’t just assume he ‘meant’ what you’re saying he meant), but that does not mean that the message of redemptive suffering is not just as much a part of salvation as mercy and joy.
Christianity is a balance. When we start taking one aspect and giving it more attention or preference than another, we go off kilter.
Focusing on Christ as God turns Him into a distant ‘Other’. Focusing on Christ as Man turns Him into ‘our good buddy’. Both distort who Jesus is --God made Man, our Savior/our Brother.
Focusing on ‘mercy’ and trying to dispel the Cross, trying to keep people from suffering when suffering is necessary (and yes, it can be necessary), distorts the gospel message as well, just as much as being masochists who deny mercy distorts the message.
If you believe in Purgatory, then whether or not you accept the ‘story’ told about the girl in purgatory until the end of times, you accept the concept that a soul in purgatory will ultimately be in Heaven. . .and I hope as a Catholic you also accept that none of us ‘deserve’ Heaven. Salvation is a gift from God offered to us not because we ‘earn it’, but out of love . . . a love that allows us to reject that salvation as well.
Christianity is a balance. When we start taking one aspect and giving it more attention or preference than another, we go off kilter.
Focusing on Christ as God turns Him into a distant ‘Other’. Focusing on Christ as Man turns Him into ‘our good buddy’. Both distort who Jesus is --God made Man, our Savior/our Brother.
Focusing on ‘mercy’ and trying to dispel the Cross, trying to keep people from suffering when suffering is necessary (and yes, it can be necessary), distorts the gospel message as well, just as much as being masochists who deny mercy distorts the message.
If you believe in Purgatory, then whether or not you accept the ‘story’ told about the girl in purgatory until the end of times, you accept the concept that a soul in purgatory will ultimately be in Heaven. . .and I hope as a Catholic you also accept that none of us ‘deserve’ Heaven. Salvation is a gift from God offered to us not because we ‘earn it’, but out of love . . . a love that allows us to reject that salvation as well.
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OsculeturMeOsculo
Guest
Suffering is an important aspect of a Christian life. Many saints speak well of suffering for Christ’s sake.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
The cross is a sign of mercy, not a sign of judgement and suffering for the sake of suffering.
God sent Jesus into the world not to change His mind about men, but to change men’s minds about God.
Both good and bad people suffer, so it’s not a means to an end for one to be saved. Salvation comes from God alone, even for those who have not suffered as much as others.
For Christians, we link our suffering with the passion of Jesus, which brings us to a greater level of love for God, than we’d have otherwise.
All suffering is offered to God for spiritual growth and not to appease God so he won’t punish us. God loves us unconditionally, but there are many Catholics who believe God only loves us when we do things to please him. They believe that when we fail, we anger God and if we happen to die on our way to the confessional, God will send us straight to hell.
This isn’t the God I know.
The God I know is full of compassion and forgiveness. If this were not so, Jesus would never have come into the world while we were still sinners.
As St John wrote, God is love.
Also, from the Cloud of Unknowing, “God can not be grasped, except through love.”
Christians are often more focused on sin management than on love, because they have not experienced God’s love in their souls.
Those who have and express it, are treated as New Age heretics. If you doubt me, watch how Pope Francis is treated by some Catholic in social media forums.
We must understand apparitions like Fatima as being a message of hope rather than of despair.
Our job as Christians is the spread the “Good News,” of Jesus Christ, not the “you better change or you go to hell,” message.
Centered In Christ
Jim
God sent Jesus into the world not to change His mind about men, but to change men’s minds about God.
Both good and bad people suffer, so it’s not a means to an end for one to be saved. Salvation comes from God alone, even for those who have not suffered as much as others.
For Christians, we link our suffering with the passion of Jesus, which brings us to a greater level of love for God, than we’d have otherwise.
All suffering is offered to God for spiritual growth and not to appease God so he won’t punish us. God loves us unconditionally, but there are many Catholics who believe God only loves us when we do things to please him. They believe that when we fail, we anger God and if we happen to die on our way to the confessional, God will send us straight to hell.
This isn’t the God I know.
The God I know is full of compassion and forgiveness. If this were not so, Jesus would never have come into the world while we were still sinners.
As St John wrote, God is love.
Also, from the Cloud of Unknowing, “God can not be grasped, except through love.”
Christians are often more focused on sin management than on love, because they have not experienced God’s love in their souls.
Those who have and express it, are treated as New Age heretics. If you doubt me, watch how Pope Francis is treated by some Catholic in social media forums.
We must understand apparitions like Fatima as being a message of hope rather than of despair.
Our job as Christians is the spread the “Good News,” of Jesus Christ, not the “you better change or you go to hell,” message.
Centered In Christ
Jim
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pacman2076
Guest
Thats not all!
First. Nowhere in scripture is anything like purgatory mentioned.
Second. The thief on the cross went straight to paradise when he died. Luke 23:43
Third. Paul said. “ to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2Cor5:8, Phil 1:23.
If Jesus blood. And our faith in Him is not enough to cleanse and save us. Then it is making His death and life paying ransom worthless!!!
First. Nowhere in scripture is anything like purgatory mentioned.
Second. The thief on the cross went straight to paradise when he died. Luke 23:43
Third. Paul said. “ to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2Cor5:8, Phil 1:23.
If Jesus blood. And our faith in Him is not enough to cleanse and save us. Then it is making His death and life paying ransom worthless!!!
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steve-b
Guest
Not necessarily.
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." 617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
While that is a looooooong time, she avoided eternity in hell. Isn’t that a huge grace?
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1Lord1Faith
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As you have eluded to, this ^ describes a good portion of CAF.
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BoomerangToo
Guest
First: Purgatory is in 2 Maccabees. If you are using a Protestant bible, then you are correct. It is not in your scriptures.
Second: The good thief did his “purgatory” on the cross.
Third: Everyone who goes through purgatory is on their way to heaven.
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ConstantLearner
Guest
Do we actually become one with God or do we attain perfect happiness through our admittance to the Beatific Vision?
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ConstantLearner
Guest
Matthew 5:24-25 is a better indication of Purgatory to me. But I agree with you about 2 Maccabees as well.
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stpurl
Guest
Ah, I think I see the problem, Jim. You are assuming that I, and others, when we speak of suffering, redemptive suffering, etc., are speaking from your ‘perceived’ notion that ‘many Catholics see a punitive God’ etc. so you have a knee-jerk reaction against it.
And that is confusing to a lot of people on here.
You keep on accusing Catholics of ‘focusing on sin management instead of love’, but the two are not mutually exclusive and never have been.
And that is confusing to a lot of people on here.
You keep on accusing Catholics of ‘focusing on sin management instead of love’, but the two are not mutually exclusive and never have been.
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steve-b
Guest
The better passage is from 1 Cor 3:
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
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steve-b
Guest
As Jesus said Re: the cross Luke 9:22-24 RSVCE - saying, “The Son of man must suffer - Bible Gateway
he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
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BoomerangToo
Guest
Friend,
- Catholics don’t believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. To be saved, we must A) repent and be baptized and B) persevere in faith and in good works until the end. When we face Our Lord in judgement, that’s when we will know for sure we have been saved. Until then, we “continue to work out our salvation with fear and anxiety.”
- The good thief paid for his sins with his life. Another way we can look at the good thief is to say he was “baptized in blood”.
- Jesus is our Savior. He is the only way to the Father.
- Yes it is!
- Well, actually…Christianity is a religion.
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BoomerangToo
Guest
We believe Masses for the dead are efficacious. And people customarily make a donation to the Church if you ask for Masses for a particular person. It’s a donation, not a fee. You don’t pay if you can’t afford to.
Did you know the early Christians believed in purgatory? And did you know that all the still existing apostolic churches pray for the dead to help them through their purification after death? Why do they do this? It was taught by the Apostles, that’s why. Even the Jews believe in a purification in the afterlife that can be facilitated by the prayers of the living.
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tp3192000
Guest
Hi Jim,Thank you for your answer. My mother is the only living person I know who ever said “scruples”. I had thought it meant having a deep sense of what is right within your soul. Webster online defines it as "motivation deriving logically from ethical or moral principles that govern a person’s thoughts and actions.Synonyms: conscience, moral sense, sense of right and wrong"In reading of saints from previous centuries, they use the term frequently in their writings; it seems that it means more like “doubt” in the context they used it. I know I had to look it up in the dictionary when i came across it because it did not make sense to me. Your explanation fits better, but I haven’t seen the word used at this forum before.
They lack the faith and trust in God’s mercy and believe that the path to salvation is only for those with the strongest willpower which they lack in themselves and therefore are in danger of hell.
It’s a contradiction to what Jesus revealed to us.
If you believe Scrupulosity is an outdated term, you must be new to this forum. Stick around and see.
Jim
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Scrupulosity essentially means seeing one’s behavior as making them sinful and destined for hell.
They lack the faith and trust in God’s mercy and believe that the path to salvation is only for those with the strongest willpower which they lack in themselves and therefore are in danger of hell.
It’s a contradiction to what Jesus revealed to us.
If you believe Scrupulosity is an outdated term, you must be new to this forum. Stick around and see.
Jim
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Scruples. That is such an outdated term. What is scrupulosity? I take it to mean that she has doubts such as she said her prayers correctly after she had said them, according to the context I remember reading of her.
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