The problem with Fatima

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cone
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
JimR-OCDS10d commenter
This is written in the book “Documents On Fatima & The Memoirs of Sister Lucia.” by Father Robert J. Fox.

The author used all the documents about Fatima and Sister Lucia, known at the time and upto 2002.

He also states about the contradictions between what the visionaries said the Blessed Mother told to them, and Sister Lucia’s later memoirs.

He merely advises us to use discretion.

Jim

I just received my copy. Thank you for the reference.
 
Last edited:
I always approach private revelations with a heavy dose of skepticism. I’m skeptical about Fatima. A private revelation is between the person and God.
 
ConstantLearner said:
A private revelation is between the person and God.
Click to expand...
This is not a rule. Sacred Scripture is full of seers that were given revelations not destined or pertaining exclusively to them - that were meant to be revelations to the larger audience of faithful. Also, the Vatican approved the apparitions. Being a skeptic is prudent -approved apparitions bring with them secure credibility- the motive you invoke is wrong, as demonstrated and held by the church.
 
adgloriam said:
40.png
ConstantLearner:
A private revelation is between the person and God.
Click to expand...
This is not a rule. Sacred Scripture is full of seers that were given revelations not destined or pertaining exclusively to them - that were meant to be revelations to the larger audience of faithful. Also, the Vatican approved the apparitions. Being a skeptic is prudent -approved apparitions bring with them secure credibility- the motive you invoke is wrong, as demonstrated and held by the church.
Click to expand...
There is a huge difference between Approved Public Revelation and Approved Private Revelation.

Approved Private Revelations are compatible with Public Revelation. Reading about Fatima is a just a reminder - it should stir up our enthusiasm for the Mass, for Scripture, for the Catechism, for implementing the spiritual and corporal works of mercy in our daily life.

Private revelation is like church music. When the musician does his job well, you hardly remember the music, your attention was focused on your own conversion, on God. It is a problem if you focus too much on church music, if you draw your theological training from music lyrics, if you become a music groupie, going only to places you like the church musician.

Likewise, if private revelation becomes an end in itself, that is not good. If you evaluate Pope Francis based on this or that private revelation, really really really not good.
 
Last edited:
Yes, there is a reason that private revelations are not added to the deposit of faith.

Having said that, with regards to the two misgivings, I’d ask:

Do you think the Holy Scriptures are lying when they depict Hell as a lake of fire? Either there is a literal lake of fire somewhere or else that metaphor is the closest thing that our minds can comprehend and so is the “closest translation,” so to speak, between language we understand and the literal truth. The Church’s willingness to say, “it does not have to be a literal lake of fire for Scriptures to be true” does not mean the Church is in any way dismissing the possibility entirely or implying that there would be much of a difference to anyone enduring the reality of Hell.

As for Amelia, we do not know what it takes for a person to be purified in Purgatory. Perhaps Our Lady, given knowledge from the eternity from which all times are as clearly seen as the present moment, knows that Amelia’s resistance to fully embracing sanctity will not be defeated until the last moment of time. After all, what physician sends a person to a rehabilitation facility for a set period of time? No, patients are sent for rehabilitation for as long as it takes, and as we know from this life that time depends greatly on the patient’s decisions to comply with their treatment. Even in Purgatory, after all, sanctity is a free choice. Those who die after a very short time on this Earth will have that choice just as surely as those who were here for decade upon decade.
 
Last edited:
Public revelation is binding on all Christians, but private revelation is binding only on those who receive it. The Catholic Church teaches that public revelation was completed, and therefore was concluded, with the death of the last apostle (Vatican II, Dei Verbum 4), but private revelation has continued.


It has been stated to the Church that “private revelation is binding only on those who receive it.” I did not receive the revelations at Fatima, Lourdes, or any place else; therefore, it is not binding upon me to put any stock in them. I do not automatically dismiss them, but sorry, I do not accept them in total, and the Church says I need not do so.
 
adgloriam said:
This is not a rule. Sacred Scripture is full of seers that were given revelations not destined or pertaining exclusively to them - that were meant to be revelations to the larger audience of faithful. Also, the Vatican approved the apparitions. Being a skeptic is prudent -approved apparitions bring with them secure credibility- the motive you invoke is wrong, as demonstrated and held by the church.
Click to expand...
There is a HUGE loophole in what you state and what is. Sacred Scripture is part of the deposit of faith, Fatima, Lourdes, etc. are not. If a private revelation belongs to the deposit of faith, of course I believe it.
 
Last edited:
JimR-OCDS said:
Christians are often more focused on sin management than on love, because they have not experienced God’s love in their souls.
Click to expand...
I see this, too, daily. I won’t pretend to know the reason why, though.

What I see even more often are people who chase worldly goods and ignore God.
 
ConstantLearner said:
A private revelation is between the person and God.
Click to expand...
A private revelation is something God, at that time, wants to make known, to help folks better live the faith in that period. So no, a private revelation can be meant for a larger audience beyond the seer alone.

The comparison with the bible serves only to illustrate biblical precedent, nothing else - so much goes with saying.
 
Last edited:
adgloriam said:
A private revelation is something God, at that time, wants to make known, to help folks better live the faith in that period. So no, a private revelation can be meant for a larger audience beyond the seer alone.
Click to expand...
Probably, yes.

But the Church still does not obligate us to believe in them.
 
adgloriam said:
Your statement is thus incorrect, or at least incomplete, as demonstrated (there are many variations to private revelation).
Click to expand...
Some private revelations, however, the Church has accepted as credible, calling them constat de supernaturalitate (that is, they give evidence of a supernatural intervention). Such private revelations cannot correct or add anything essentially new to Public Revelation; however, they may contribute to a deeper understanding of the faith, provide new lines of theological investigation (such as suggested by the revelations to St. Margaret Mary on the Sacred Heart), or recall mankind prophetically to the living of the Gospel (as at Fátima). No private revelation can ever be necessary for salvation, though its content may obviously coincide with what is necessary for salvation as known from Scripture and Tradition. The person who believes the teachings of the Magisterium, utilizes devoutly the sacramental means of sanctification and prayer, and remains in Communion with the Pope and the bishops in union with him, is already employing the necessary means of salvation. A private revelation may recall wayward individuals to the faith, stir the devotion of the already pious, encourage prayer and penance on behalf of others, but it cannot substitute for the Catholic faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion with the Pope and bishops.

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm

Now it’s fuller, but it doesn’t change the fact that NO Catholic is obliged to believe in them.
 
ConstantLearner said:
A private revelation may recall wayward individuals to the faith, stir the devotion of the already pious, encourage prayer and penance on behalf of others,
Click to expand...
I’m glad it is fuller @ConstantLearner especially the above excerpt adds potentially heavy profit.
ConstantLearner said:
however, they may contribute to a deeper understanding of the faith, provide new lines of theological investigation (…), or recall mankind prophetically to the living of the Gospel
Click to expand...
Potential not to be belittled.
 
Last edited:
Not belittling them or those who received them in any way. I was just saying I am skeptical of them until I know much more about them. I do not accept them out of hand and am not obligated to do so. But I wouldn’t belittle them or their receivers.
 
adgloriam said:
40.png
ConstantLearner:
A private revelation is between the person and God.
Click to expand...
A private revelation is something God, at that time, wants to make known, to help folks better live the faith in that period. So no, a private revelation can be meant for a larger audience beyond the seer alone.
Click to expand...
Instead of the word “meant”, I would put this: “suggested”. Keep in mind this is all in the perception of the seer or visionary. The Suggestion may be from God, for an approved private revelation.

Also keep in mind unapproved private revelations almost always include directions or even demands for other people, for priests, bishops, popes.
I personally ignore any private revelation, even approved, that tells other people what to do, especially Church officials. (I am not a Church official).

Keep in mind some private revelations are approved early on, then there is much more revelations released, which may be current or backdated. These revelations are not part of the “approved revelation”; just the stuff that was reviewed by the Church.
 
Last edited:
I read the EWTN article on heeding the Message of
Our Lady of Fatima. This quote in that article jumped
out at me:
[The sins of our time are not merely ones of weakness. Those who fall through weakness admit that they have done wrong and seek mercy. The greatest sin today is the obdurate refusal to repent. With a figurative clenched fist, many today say, “I will not be told what to do. I will decide what I want to do and I will determine whether it is right or wrong.”]

I think that what is desperately lacking is the Fear of God and Humility among X’ns!!
 
Well how about this.
St Gregory, St Thomas ,St Bonaventure, St Jerome etc all describe Purgatory (this is just purgatory) as “purifying the soul in fire” “a fire that no human could withstand”
 
mbmulkern said:
St Gregory, St Thomas ,St Bonaventure, St Jerome etc all describe Purgatory (this is just purgatory) as “purifying the soul in fire” “a fire that no human could withstand”
Click to expand...
Yet they are human.

Please correct me if I’m wrong: I was always taught that we don’t know if anyone is in hell. Yet, during the Fatima apparitions, Our Lady told the children, “Pray, pray very much and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go yo hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and pray for them” (Apostoli, 107).

So, it seems Our Lady confirmed there are many souls in hell.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top