The problem with Fatima

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cone
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The visions do tend to reflect the teachings of the times. That does make one suspicious regarding the source of the words. If we had copies of the homilies of the local riests, I suspect that a great deal of similarity would be found.

John
 
Do you actually believe anything outside the bible? What exactly do you believe that is a private revelation of any of the saints, any of the apparitions?
 
oldcelt1 said:
The visions do tend to reflect the teachings of the times. That does make one suspicious regarding the source of the words. If we had copies of the homilies of the local riests, I suspect that a great deal of similarity would be found.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. And the local school teachings would be interesting. Some people, through no fault of their own, are just very impressionable. The fact that many apparitions can be interpreted in several-to-many different ways also gives me pause, as does the fact that everything must be a “secret.” If God wants the world to know something, I think he’d let it know, not play “I’ve got a secret” because that turns many people off right away.

I don’t believe these people are liars, just impressionable, anxious, maybe too caught up in religious fervor. Even Christ relaxed and enjoyed himself from time-to-time
 
ConstantLearner said:
40.png
mbmulkern:
St Gregory, St Thomas ,St Bonaventure, St Jerome etc all describe Purgatory (this is just purgatory) as “purifying the soul in fire” “a fire that no human could withstand”
Click to expand...
Yet they are human.

Please correct me if I’m wrong: I was always taught that we don’t know if anyone is in hell. Yet, during the Fatima apparitions, Our Lady told the children, “Pray, pray very much and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go yo hell, because there are none to sacrifice themselves and pray for them” (Apostoli, 107).

So, it seems Our Lady confirmed there are many souls in hell.
Click to expand...
You can’t always assume that “what you were taught” is totally in agreement with the Catholic Faith. There was a period, especially from the late 1960s into the next few decades, when a large percentage of Catholic children and adults received a catechesis that was very lacking in doctrinal content. Even today, many people formed in that era still are actively communicating in the Church almost an anti-dogma crusade.

Whether you were taught the doctrine, or not, you can’t ignore the Public Revelation. This includes the New Testament, where Christ taught about Hell a number of times (remember the rich man, who saw Lazarus?).

On the other hand, keep in mind Fatima is private revelation, it adds no new doctrine. You can ignore anything in Fatima. It is only useful to you if it encourages you in living out the truth in public revelation. It is possible another private revelation would speak to your own heart.
 
I personally find the original Fatima message, the call to ME for conversion - changing myself - to be helpful. I was at Mass yesterday, and it was a First Saturday. When I said you can ignore anything in Fatima, I meant that everything important in that revelation is a repetition of the gospel, which we can’t ignore.
 
Last edited:
Yes, thank you. I was aware that’s what you meant. I think if people can take clarity and truth from a private revelation and use it to advance in grace they should do so. I often read the writings of St. John of the Cross and some of the other Spanish mystics.

Just for clarity, I don’t ignore anything in the Gospel. I fall short, but I go to confession and try again.
 
Last edited:
Well, St. John of the Cross is my favorite. I also love Treatise on the Love of God by St. Francis de Sales.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
In my mind, no mother, especially the Mother of God, would use horrific, graphic images of Hell to scare children.
Click to expand...
If the visions were genuine - and I have no reason to believe or disbelieve - I’m sure the Blessed Mother wasn’t trying to scare the children. She told them she would soon take Francisco and Jacinta to heaven, but Lucia would have to carry out duties here on earth for a while. The children knew they were not going to hell.

Hell is eternal separation from God, no chance to ever attain heaven.
 
Mark121359 said:
I get the feeling that for many Catholics, the issue isn’t so much Our Lady’s appearance at Fatima per say, but her message. Namely, the third apparition.
Click to expand...
For me, it’s the appearance of Our Lady, not the message. I revere her as the Mother of God, a sinless human, though I don’t feel particularly close to her.
 
The fact that some modern theologians don’t like a notion doesn’t falsify it. The answer to 1 would be that Hell is a literal lake of fire.
 
It may appear in some ways that the Church is “getting away from” the depiction of hell as a horrible lake of fire, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t. I’ve noticed some priests don’t seem to be inclined to mention the horrors and pain of hell very often, if ever, in their homilies (or the results of not utilizing the essential Sacrament of Reconciliation for that matter), and I think part of the reason for this may be an attempt to first draw more people back to our loving and merciful Lord. This is an important preliminary goal for all of us, but hell is hell, no matter how we may try to “lighten” it up to make ourselves feel more at ease here on earth. If you read accounts of countless Saints and their visions throughout the centuries, that literal lake of fire is definitely there - and greatly feared by them. We would do well to heed their words and those of our loving Blessed Mother. There is tremendous hope for all of us, but first we must open our eyes to the truths that Jesus taught, and those do include hell.
 
ConstantLearner said:
40.png
adgloriam:
“The Glories of Mary” by saint Alphonsus Liguori is the book for you!!!
Click to expand...
Thank you! Will read it!
Click to expand...
The ultimate “page turner” you could be falling from exhaustion and would still be able to read the book. And you will fall in love with the saint and with Our Blessed Mother Mary as you read through it.
 
bmaj said:
It may appear in some ways that the Church is “getting away from” the depiction of hell as a horrible lake of fire, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t. I’ve noticed some priests don’t seem to be inclined to mention the horrors and pain of hell very often, if ever, in their homilies (or the results of not utilizing the essential Sacrament of Reconciliation for that matter), and I think part of the reason for this may be an attempt to first draw more people back to our loving and merciful Lord.
Click to expand...
Fatima did not originate the idea of Hell, it was a reminder, pointing us to the Bible. There may have been an earlier time when Catholics, and most other people, were preoccupied by sin, and their eternal destiny.

Except for maybe 1% of the population, this is not the world we live in!

We live at a time when there is no line outside most confessionals, not because people are fearful, but because most people see no need, no relevance for them. If a private revelation leads more people to attention to their eternal destiny, and need for ongoing conversion, it is a blessing indeed.
 
commenter said:
We live at a time when there is no line outside most confessionals, not because people are fearful, but because most people see no need, no relevance for them.
Click to expand...
I’m still trying to find one of these confessionals with no line on the average Saturday afternoon. In a whole 2 years of going to Confession once or twice a month, there has been exactly 1 occasion when I arrived to find no one waiting ahead of me, and by the time I came out people were waiting behind me. Frequently the lines are so long that a few people at the end get turned away because the priest has to go say Mass or keep another appointment.

I’ve probably been to Confession over the last 2 years in about 20 different churches, shrines and cathedrals spread over at least 5 US states and have seen the same thing everywhere.
 
Last edited:
I usually see about 5-10 of the same people in line for confession. The advent/lent “penance services” tend to draw out many more, which is good.

The thing that strikes me is this: if confessions are only available on Saturday evenings and relatively few people are going (certainly the number of penitents is grossly disproportionate to the number of people who will receive Holy Communion the next morning), this means that something is very wrong. Either people aren’t committing any mortal sins or they are receiving Our Lord in the the Blessed Sacrament in the state of sin. My money is on the latter.
 
Confession used to be 6 days a week in most parishes. Where I live middle size churches had 4 confessionals. On Saturdays there was often 2 priests hearing them. Weddings had to be done by 1pm to set aside the church for confessions. In my grammar and high schools confession in school was monthly with a whole army of clergy.
 
I would like to think that many people don’t commit mortal sins, but it is likely that many of them do and are simply not realizing or admitting the need to go to Confession. I used to be in that number and had conveniently deadened myself to the “sin” concept. I recently was in a discussion with a bunch of people who I happened to be on a pilgrimage with and it seemed like many of them were uncomfortable with the concepts of sin and confession and just avoided all that stuff. It was a bit sad but i could understand the thinking as that used to be me.

I’m mostly cognizant of it now because of reading about Padre Pio and because I need to stay in good shape for my ongoing project of earning plenary indulgences for the Poor Souls. Since it is for someone other than me, it’s easier for me to say, “I must do this and that to help these Poor Souls” than it would be for me to say, “I must go to Confession frequently to help myself.” It’s not that I think I don’t need help, but one is often motivated to slack off when you are not hurting anybody but yourself…the thought of depriving someone else of a benefit can trigger that guilt though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top