The problem with Fatima

[Tis_Bearself]

Ok but many don’t realize the public Revelation and the Magisterium to be more important than private ones.

I am not sure how any Catholic with a devotion to Mary sufficient to interest them in her apparitions would somehow not see her time on earth as “important”, since said Catholic would no doubt be saying the Rosary and meditating on all the mysteries of Mary’s Life on a regular and constant basis, including while visiting apparition sites or shrines.

I can see where someone who is not a Catholic might get their priorities in a wrong order, like that person on the other thread who is all concerned about the Miracle of the Sun when they should be thinking about RCIA.

 

[JimG]

I linked Monsignor Pope’s article once before, but I’ll link it again with a quote:

“In 1981, Our Lady of Fatima warned through Sr. Lucia that the final battle will be against marriage and the family and that anyone who tries to defend them will experience persecution and tribulation. And here we are. Even at the highest levels of the Church, certain priests and bishops mislead God’s people. Meanwhile, clergy and faithful who seek to uphold marriage are dismissed as pharisaical, rigid and unpastoral. This was also confirmed by Our Lady of Akita in Japan”

The Times Are Urgent and We Must Heed the Warnings of Our Lady

Pray the Rosary daily for the conversion of sinners. Beg the Lord for poor sinners to repent.

www.ncregister.com

 

[commenter]

I linked Monsignor Pope’s article once before, but I’ll link it again with a quote:

“In 1981, Our Lady of Fatima warned through Sr. Lucia that the final battle will be against marriage and the family and that anyone who tries to defend them will experience persecution and tribulation. And here we are. Even at the highest levels of the Church, certain priests and bishops mislead God’s people. Meanwhile, clergy and faithful who seek to uphold marriage are dismissed as pharisaical, rigid and unpastoral. This was also confirmed by Our Lady of Akita in Japan”

I find Msgr Pope to be a credible source. I just wish he had relied on public revelation to make his (valid) point.

I am uneasy about what appears to be increasing reliance on private revelations. My pastor has, over the past 5 years, been citing them more in his homilies and inserts in the bulletin. Especially, he, and others cite descriptions of “bishop vs. bishop”, or “corruption in the highest levels of the Church”, or warnings of shepherds being silent, ambiguous, or passive in face of erroneous teaching.

The problem with private revelation is there is so much of it. You might think limiting it only to “Church approved” private revelations would reduce it to, say, the equivalent of one bible in words.

But the vast majority of what is written about Fatima, for instance, is not part of the 1930 Church approval, since it was made public after that. People see that word “Fatima” on the 1940s document and think it is “approved”. So private revelations may have as many words as 100 bibles.
Lots of room for good and bad tangents here.

There is little interest in the core of private revelations, relating to conversion, doing penance, fasting, prayer (who wants to do that?). I am sure many think this or that reference to a private revelation (out of a million or so possible private revelation references) carries more weight than an Apostolic Exhortation from Pope Francis (!). When people pick and choose from countless private references, this leads to far more potential mischief than Sola Scriptura, which is limited to just the bible.

There is so much ignorance of public revelation. Let pastors cite this, and teach us about the Magisterium.

 

[JimG]

Yes, public revelation constitutes the deposit of Faith; and it is all that is needed for salvation.

But I think that God allows private revelation for a reason. Some private revelations remain truly private, meant for one individual alone. Other private are meant to spread a particular devotion, or warn of particular dangers at particular times. I think the Fatima revelation belongs in that last category.

When I was in school, it was widely believed and taken seriously. But few followed it’s admonitions for repentance and prayer. When the third secret was delayed after 1960, people lost a lot of interest.

Now, we live in a secular and skeptical age, and there seems to be a positive will to disbelieve. Yet, like Msgr. Pop;e, I think Our Lady was quite serious in her admonitions.

 

[commenter]

When Bishop Sheen preached about Fatima in the 1950s, he could assume that most Catholics at that time had a fair grasp of Public Revelation, the foundation. So he could then apply something from Fatima to make a point for people in the 1950s. He was on safe ground in doing that, in the 1950s.

At that time, no Catholic in their right mind would consider any private revelation more important than the Magisterium. They would certainly distrust anyone who would use a private revelation to evaluate bishops and popes.

We are not living in the 1950s.

 

[JimG]

No, we are not living in the 1950’s. In fact, society has reached an even more perilous state, making Mary’s requests for repentance and prayer even more urgent. I don’t think her message had an expiration date.

I wonder if Fulton Sheen, looking at the world today, would say, “Oh well, things have changed so much, the danger is past. No need to worry about prayer and repentance now.”

 

[commenter]

There is a thread “I struggle with third secret interpretation”. Look at some of the posts in last 24 hours. I wonder what Sheen would say about trashing Magisterium.

 

[Cjb82919]

Well Mary would not have wanted them to end up there and wanted them to warn the world. Also the children would not have received something that God did not think they could handle

 

[TK421]

Well Mary would not have wanted them to end up there and wanted them to warn the world. Also the children would not have received something that God did not think they could handle

This summarizes everything. How does anybody convey a message from God except by the grace of God sustaining them? They could be 8 or 80 or 800.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

1. The vision of Hell. The depiction of Hell as a literal lake of fire is a concept the Church has been getting away from. If the Blessed Mother was giving the children a metaphorical vision to scare them into good behavior, then the Blessed Mother is deceitful, which of course is not possible.

Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings You have made perfect praise, because of Your enemies Psalm 8:2

I believe you misinterpret the dialogue exchange between the Blessed Mother and Lucia. You have misplaced your notion of a false “Fear” with a revealed perfect Love witnessed by Lucia. Without fear, It was Lucia who asked the question and inquired about the subjects of heaven, hell, purgatory for the sake of her community and her loved ones, Jacinta and Francisco in particular.

The Blessed Mother responded in LOVE followed by divine revelation revealed by Her Son Jesus Christ in Truth. 1John4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

When Truth is revealed there exist no false fear to which you allude to here at Fatima.

According to Lucia, the Blessed Mother told her that their friend, Amelia, would be in Purgatory until the end of time. if that’s the fate of a child, what hope is there for the rest of us?

First of all, those souls who are in Purgatory are on their way to heaven. When the Soul enters Purgatory, the soul suffers loss, yet heaven is attained by the purged soul in the end. Lucia will see her friend “Amelia” in heaven, but she will suffer loss in purgatory. That is the “Truth”, promise and hope for Lucia from the Blessed Mother. Which is GOOD NEWS and the hope for all of us who may lack a charity like Lucia’s friend Amelia.

No problem with Fatima, so long as Truth exposes false fears which comes from the devil. True fear of God comes from “the mouth of babes”.

Peace be with you

 

[ConstantLearner]

This summarizes everything. How does anybody convey a message from God except by the grace of God sustaining them? They could be 8 or 80 or 800.

How do we know the message was from God?

 

[adgloriam]

Lots of room for good and bad tangents here.

One of the main criteria for canonization is that during their whole lives those who are to become saints never said or wrote a single thing contrary to the faith. So yes, when they kept extensive correspondence throughout their lives and reached an old age the canonization process has enough volumes to fill an entire room. But you are not required to read the whole process or to know it. Enough to say the congregation for the causes of saints did that for you and their final judgment is the final judgement from the Holy Roman Catholic Church. And it is beautiful that those revelations and the works of the saints were sometimes long, and complex, an entire lifetime devoid of error is almost a guarantee of assistance from the Holy Spirit. [Unlike those that can’t get a couple of coherent paragraphs together without a dozen mistakes in them.]

 

[commenter]

commenter:

When Bishop Sheen preached about Fatima in the 1950s, he could assume that most Catholics at that time had a fair grasp of Public Revelation, the foundation. So he could then apply something from Fatima to make a point for people in the 1950s. He was on safe ground in doing that, in the 1950s.

Hey man, in 1950 half of the European population couldn’t read or write. So exactly why was it safe to preach to the faithful in 1950 and it isn’t safe today?

Public Revelation is the foundation, and by far, the more important. Private Revelation is an option, for those who need extra encouragement in living out the truths in Public Revelation.

In the 1950s, Sheen could count on most Catholics in his American audience as

1. having a pretty good knowledge of Public Revelation.
2. He knew that they knew that the current pope and bishops teaching was far more important than private revelation.
   3).He knew that then, misuse of private revelation was rare.
3. attacks on the Magisterium by Catholics was rare then

If he were preaching now, he would take into account the current realities, and concentrate on rebuilding the foundation.

 

[ConstantLearner]

If he were preaching now, he would take into account the current realities, and concentrate on rebuilding the foundation.

That’s your opinion, of course. None of us knows what Bishop Sheen would really do. People often have motivation and legitimate reasons for doing or not doing something that they do not reveal for one reason or another.

 

[clarkgamble1]

Before you get too excited about Fatima you should read these books.

http://www.anomalistbooks.com/fatima-trilogy.cfm

 

[commenter]

commenter:

If he were preaching now, he would take into account the current realities, and concentrate on rebuilding the foundation.

That’s your opinion, of course. None of us knows what Bishop Sheen would really do. People often have motivation and legitimate reasons for doing or not doing something that they do not reveal for one reason or another.

You are right, I should have referred to what we should do now as best we can.

• support doctrinal content (public revelation) in education and parishes;
• teach the actual core message of Fatima, which is personal conversion not evaluation of the hierarchy
• boycott “Catholic” websites that are not in union with the Catholic Church
• discourage fellow Fatima supporters from supporting websites that use Fatima to attack the pope and bishops, as a way of raising donations and website hits

 

[angel12]

Before you get too excited about Fatima you should read these books.

Anomalist Books | simply phenomenal

Only if you enjoy UFO fiction, by the looks of them.

 

[clarkgamble1]

UFOs are a fact, not fiction. Thousands have seen them, including the governments of the world. Only an ostrich with its head in the sand would deny that they exist. The problem is that if they ever make a real worldwide appearance and explain their interaction with humans over the millenniums all your memorized religious beliefs will be destroyed. That will be very hard to accept.

 

[angel12]

I didn’t say UFOs are fiction, I said those books look like UFO fiction. Do try to keep up.
BTW, many religious beliefs are experienced, not just memorized. Until you learn more about spiritual experience, you really should dial down the arrogance.

 

[ConstantLearner]

UFOs are a fact, not fiction. Thousands have seen them, including the governments of the world. Only an ostrich with its head in the sand would deny that they exist. The problem is that if they ever make a real worldwide appearance and explain their interaction with humans over the millenniums all your memorized religious beliefs will be destroyed. That will be very hard to accept.

I’m sure there are many, many flying objects that are unidentified. That, however, doesn’t mean they are filled with visitors from other planets or even life of any kind. Governments do things all the time the general public knows nothing about.