The Problem with Protestant Ecclesiology

[Barelohim]

Hearing the good news, believing the good news, and receiving the good news, causes a conception. Is the point! Because the Word is more than ink on a page.

But even with Jesus, the Journey only began at His conception and birth. Since He is our example, as we follow Him, it is to be the same with us.

Bar

 

[CopticChristian]

Hearing the good news, believing the good news, and receiving the good news, causes a conception. Is the point! Because the Word is more than ink on a page.

But even with Jesus, the Journey only began at His conception and birth. Since He is our example, as we follow Him, it is to be the same with us.

Bar

Bar,

But did you go to a Bible study where you were led to “confess with your lips and believe with your heart and you will be saved” as stated in Romans believing that you are now saved?

 

[Barelohim]

When my sister and I were little kids, and went to sunday school down the street, where we heard the stories about Jesus. And as children, we believed. Same as children believe their parents about santa claus, easter bunnies, and tooth fairies.

But unknowingly at the time Jesus had become our saviour. Even though I didn’t know much about all this, at the time. But for 40+ years, I still believed in Jesus, believed the bible and in heaven and hell, although that is all I knew at the time, I still believed.

But He was an historical Jesus, who lived up in heaven, and that is all I knew. Tried reading the bible, but didn’t get far, for lack of understanding. UNTIL!

1982, Sept 26th 11 pm…sitting at my kitchen table, He spoke this to me. " My Son, you have believed in Me, ever since you were a little boy, but you have never invited Me into your life to become your Lord! " I replied, that I had never heard He needed to be invited into ones life! To which He replied… " It is the only way I come! Would you now, invite Me into your life to become your Lord?" As I did, I didn’t sense anything happen, until the next day, when I used His name, as I had a thousand times before, but this time, as I uttered His name, I immediately felt SHAME! And in that second I knew He really had come into my life.

Thirty years after He became a living Christ, no more historical, a relationship, and fellowship has grown to where He is Lord more often than I.

He was my Saviour as a little boy, when I heard and believed. But I was lord of my life, until I allowed Him to come and teach me how His Lordship is given. For He doesn’t take Lordship, When we submit to His leading, He is Lord. But when we don’t, we are lord.

Bar.

 

[CopticChristian]

When my sister and I were little kids, and went to sunday school down the street, where we heard the stories about Jesus. And as children, we believed. Same as children believe their parents about santa claus, easter bunnies, and tooth fairies.

But unknowingly at the time Jesus had become our saviour. Even though I didn’t know much about all this, at the time. But for 40+ years, I still believed in Jesus, believed the bible and in heaven and hell, although that is all I knew at the time, I still believed.

But He was an historical Jesus, who lived up in heaven, and that is all I knew. Tried reading the bible, but didn’t get far, for lack of understanding. UNTIL!

1982, Sept 26th 11 pm…sitting at my kitchen table, He spoke this to me. " My Son, you have believed in Me, ever since you were a little boy, but you have never invited Me into your life to become your Lord! " I replied, that I had never heard He needed to be invited into ones life! To which He replied… " It is the only way I come! Would you now, invite Me into your life to become your Lord?" As I did, I didn’t sense anything happen, until the next day, when I used His name, as I had a thousand times before, but this time, as I uttered His name, I immediately felt SHAME! And in that second I knew He really had come into my life.

Thirty years after He became a living Christ, no more historical, a relationship, and fellowship has grown to where He is Lord more often than I.

He was my Saviour as a little boy, when I heard and believed. But I was lord of my life, until I allowed Him to come and teach me how His Lordship is given. For He doesn’t take Lordship, When we submit to His leading, He is Lord. But when we don’t, we are lord.

Bar.

Bare,

So you believe in Lordship salvation?

 

[Barelohim]

So you believe in Lordship salvation?

HA HA HA HA Your something else man… Really. Lordship salvation? Let me put it this way…,
Phillipians 2: 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This salvation is a process, that He initiates His will through Grace. Which is His ever present enablement, to cause us to do what He asks us to do, and to be, what He has called us to be…

Therefore submitting to His will, which is allowing Him to be Lord in this process, is part and parcel of ones salvation.

Salvation comes after the initial new birth. Whereby we grow from babes in Christ, to mature sons and daughters of Our Lord and Saviour.

Bar.

 

[CopticChristian]

So you believe in Lordship salvation?

HA HA HA HA Your something else man… Really. Lordship salvation? Let me put it this way…,
Phillipians 2: 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

This salvation is a process, that He initiates His will through Grace. Which is His ever present enablement, to cause us to do what He asks us to do, and to be, what He has called us to be…

Therefore submitting to His will, which is allowing Him to be Lord in this process, is part and parcel of ones salvation.

Salvation comes after the initial new birth. Whereby we grow from babes in Christ, to mature sons and daughters of Our Lord and Saviour.

Bar.

Bar,

I am grateful you appreciate me. Your quotations and beliefs sound like you’re Catholic.

 

[Barelohim]

Nope! No Catholic, nor Protesant! The third kind, remember.

See the foundation of the Catholic Church lies on the foundational belief that Jesus made Peter the head of the Church. Unfortunetly, Peter never said so, and neither did Paul who knew Peter well. Only Catholisism takes one scripture and makes it doctrine.

Peter said, one of the attributes attributed to the true Knowledge of Jesus was * godliness*! And lack of this attribute constitues blindness etc.

Confession of sinful acts, time after time, year after year, decade upon decade, acts only as a reminder that godliness has not taken root.

I won’t go on and on discussing the errors in Catholicism, For our High Priest is to be Christ, not any fallible man.

So, there you go! I guess I am seen as a separated brethern by the Catholic church, But there isn’t a denomination that laid down its life for me, only Jesus. He bought and paid for me, so I belong to Him, and no other shepherd do I follow,.

Amen.
Bar.

 

[CopticChristian]

Nope! No Catholic, nor Protesant! The third kind, remember.

See the foundation of the Catholic Church lies on the foundational belief that Jesus made Peter the head of the Church. Unfortunetly, Peter never said so, and neither did Paul who knew Peter well. Only Catholisism takes one scripture and makes it doctrine.

Peter said, one of the attributes attributed to the true Knowledge of Jesus was * godliness*! And lack of this attribute constitues blindness etc.

Confession of sinful acts, time after time, year after year, decade upon decade, acts only as a reminder that godliness has not taken root.

I won’t go on and on discussing the errors in Catholicism, For our High Priest is to be Christ, not any fallible man.
So, there you go! I guess I am seen as a separated brethern by the Catholic church, But there isn’t a denomination that laid down its life for me, only Jesus. He bought and paid for me, so I belong to Him, and no other shepherd do I follow,.

Amen.
Bar.

Bare,

In many and various ways God spoke through his prophets, but in these last days…who for a little while…we have a High Priest and His name is Jesus…you do sound Catholic.

 

[october_baby]

Instead of simply moving toward the Catholic Church, just become Catholic!

That’s what I did!

 

[october_baby]

Bare,

In many and various ways God spoke through his prophets, but in these last days…who for a little while…we have a High Priest and His name is Jesus…you do sound Catholic.

He sounds like a protestant to me.

 

[Porknpie]

Nope! No Catholic, nor Protesant! The third kind, remember.

See the foundation of the Catholic Church lies on the foundational belief that Jesus made Peter the head of the Church. Unfortunetly, Peter never said so, and neither did Paul who knew Peter well. Only Catholisism takes one scripture and makes it doctrine.

Peter said, one of the attributes attributed to the true Knowledge of Jesus was * godliness*! And lack of this attribute constitues blindness etc.

Confession of sinful acts, time after time, year after year, decade upon decade, acts only as a reminder that godliness has not taken root.

I won’t go on and on discussing the errors in Catholicism, For our High Priest is to be Christ, not any fallible man.

So, there you go! I guess I am seen as a separated brethern by the Catholic church, But there isn’t a denomination that laid down its life for me, only Jesus. He bought and paid for me, so I belong to Him, and no other shepherd do I follow,.

Amen.
Bar.

This has been a wonderful post to lurk on. Thank you both. Bar, if I believed your theology, would I find it in the early church, say 100 to 600 ad? If not, what is missing and why?

 

[Barelohim]

This has been a wonderful post to lurk on. Thank you both. Bar, if I believed your theology, would I find it in the early church, say 100 to 600 ad? If not, what is missing and why?

Dear Porknpie, Even in the time of Jesus Himself, as He Himself addressed the Synagogue and the Pharisee and Sadduces explaining to them the difference of the literal and the spiritual.

Paul also addressed this same issue in his time… ! What? Has Christ been divided?

The small little groups of believers were meeting in homes, not in the synagogues.

The question was, at that time, and still is, who is leading His church? The Holy Spirit, or religious potentates? Pupils become as their teacher. Look around in any of the denominational organizations. Where are the sheep likened unto any Christlike character? As 1 Cor. 13, or 2 Peter state.

Jesus with the Samaritan women at the well. " Our fathers say we worship God in the mountains, you Jews say the Synagogue/tabernacle." Jesus reply? " You worship that which you do not KNOW!" “It isn’t where you worship, its HOW!” True worship is in Spirit, and Truth. Where is the assembly, where 1 Cor. 14 clearly states is to be happening in the assembly.

You want to know what is missing? It is the Spirit of Christ. " Ichabod!" is over every door to ecumenical organization, called the church. Meaning the Spirit has departed. Popes/Priests/Pastors have taken over the ministry that belongs to the Spirit!

In the days of Moses, Jehovah moved outside the camp, because of the filthiness allowed in the camp. Moses sensed His move out, and pulled up his tent and moved outside the camp as well… Sadly too many are staying in the camp.

Bar

 

[SteveVH]

Nope! No Catholic, nor Protesant! The third kind, remember.

See the foundation of the Catholic Church lies on the foundational belief that Jesus made Peter the head of the Church. Unfortunetly, Peter never said so, and neither did Paul who knew Peter well. Only Catholisism takes one scripture and makes it doctrine.

Peter said, one of the attributes attributed to the true Knowledge of Jesus was * godliness*! And lack of this attribute constitues blindness etc.

Confession of sinful acts, time after time, year after year, decade upon decade, acts only as a reminder that godliness has not taken root.

I won’t go on and on discussing the errors in Catholicism, For our High Priest is to be Christ, not any fallible man.

So, there you go! I guess I am seen as a separated brethern by the Catholic church, But there isn’t a denomination that laid down its life for me, only Jesus. He bought and paid for me, so I belong to Him, and no other shepherd do I follow,.

Amen.
Bar.

Can I ask you just one simple question? Why did Jesus Christ start a Church before ascending to heaven?

Thanks.

 

[Barelohim]

SteveVH
(quote)Can I ask you just one simple question? Why did Jesus Christ start a Church before ascending to heaven? (end quote)

Sure, Steve, you can ask the question, but the answer is He didn’t start any church before He ascended. In Matt 18: 17 the term church translates to gathering of called out ones. Meaning those believers and or followers of Christ Jesus. Like those who were baptised by John, or even Nicodemus.

The Church He said He would bulld, started when He came back as the Spirit of Truth, and filled those believers with His Spirit. Acts 2.

Romans 8: 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Bar.

 

[Porknpie]

Sure, Steve, you can ask the question, but the answer is He didn’t start any church before He ascended. In Matt 18: 17 the term church translates to gathering of called out ones. Meaning those believers and or followers of Christ Jesus. Like those who were baptised by John, or even Nicodemus.

The Church He said He would bulld, started when He came back as the Spirit of Truth, and filled those believers with His Spirit. Acts 2.
.

Sounds like the early church believed the Church Christ established was called “Catholic”…“the pillar and bulwark of truth”. Just wrote this on another post.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, **wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." **Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

And then there was Irenaeus…

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

What other church are you thinking or believing of if not Catholic and which of the early church fathers write about it?

 

[Barelohim]

Sounds like the early church believed the Church Christ established was called “Catholic”…“the pillar and bulwark of truth”. Just wrote this on another post.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, **wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." **Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

And then there was Irenaeus…

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

What other church are you thinking or believing of if not Catholic and which of the early church fathers write about it?

The Church of the First born, is the Church Jesus Christ Himself started, and still leads as its High Priest, and Confessor today. The Church you have quoted was not this church.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Porknpie]

The Church of the First born, is the Church Jesus Christ Himself started, and still leads as its High Priest, and Confessor today. The Church you have quoted was not this church.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Ok so Hebrews 12:22-24 speaks to the heavenly Jerusalem and the celestial liturgy … We Catholics look forward to this too. But you didn’t answer my previous question.

 

[JustaServant]

Nope! No Catholic, nor Protesant! The third kind, remember.

See the foundation of the Catholic Church lies on the foundational belief that Jesus made Peter the head of the Church. Unfortunetly, Peter never said so, and neither did Paul who knew Peter well. Only Catholisism takes one scripture and makes it doctrine.

Peter said, one of the attributes attributed to the true Knowledge of Jesus was * godliness*! And lack of this attribute constitues blindness etc.

Confession of sinful acts, time after time, year after year, decade upon decade, acts only as a reminder that godliness has not taken root.

I won’t go on and on discussing the errors in Catholicism, For our High Priest is to be Christ, not any fallible man.

So, there you go! I guess I am seen as a separated brethern by the Catholic church, But there isn’t a denomination that laid down its life for me, only Jesus. He bought and paid for me, so I belong to Him, and no other shepherd do I follow,.

Amen.
Bar.

Ah jeeze…

 

[Barelohim]

Ok so Hebrews 12:22-24 speaks to the heavenly Jerusalem and the celestial liturgy … We Catholics look forward to this too. But you didn’t answer my previous question.

Hey! Sorry Porknpie, but maybe you could ask it again, just to be clear?

Bar-Elohim

 

[Porknpie]

Hey! Sorry Porknpie, but maybe you could ask it again, just to be clear?

Bar-Elohim

Bar -

Two questions actually…

What other church are you thinking or believing of if not Catholic and which of the early church fathers write about it?

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

Pork