The Problem with Protestant Ecclesiology

[benjohnson]

How do you view your church’s stance on birth control?

I view the change as a well intentioned, but fundamentally a poor decision that needs to be changed to follow God, scripture, and reason.

As I understand it, the idea was to create a rule that was easier to follow that would preclude abortion, and we followed a similar decision at some of the Orthodox churches.

As I understand it, the LCMS position precludes using methods that can cause damage to a child, or could result in a chemical abortion such as “the pill.” We stress NFP, abstinence, and other methods that do not damage a child.

I am truly pleased that the LCMS stands with the Catholic Church against the HHS chemical-abortion mandate and I look forward to more reflection on the subject.

I am also thankful to the Catholic church for remaining steadfast in this issue, and being a light to the world for the sanctity of life.

 

[CopticChristian]

We accept more than just Scripture as the source of all thought: We accept tradition, ecclesiastical authority, council authority among others. It’s only when one of those authorities contradicts scripture that we begin to ask questions.

I enjoy how you phrased the contradiction about how Lutherans rely on Scripture, and it does make one think.

In our defense, Scripture was laid out by the church a long time before Papal Infallibility was promulgated, and before the Great Schism - our Eastern and Oriental friends do share our concerns with Papal Infallibility. Another defence is that we don’t view ourselves as a 500 year old church - we view ourselves as a valid continuation of the Western Church.

If I was forced to look at my own church with a critical eye, I would say our greatest failing was not adhering to the traditional view of Apostolic Succession. In my opinion, we should have maintained that rigorously, and perhaps if we did, there wouldn’t be so much fracture in the Protestant world today.

Ben,

I have no beef with Lutherans. I do ask you to look at the notion of accepting ecclesiastical authority as you say, because you do not view this source as anything as fallible. I understand you also accept Confessions, as you are, I believe a Confessional Lutheran and in that regard there is an authority that you accept.

Correct?

 

[CopticChristian]

I agree with this. The congregational model which seems to have been an understandable but flawed defense against the mixing of church and state resulted in a lack of authority and unity of doctrine and practice. I cannot believe that the Holy Spirit would be leading us in so many different directions.

Stilldream,

This notion of where one is being led is certainly honest of you and respected.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben,

I have no beef with Lutherans. I do ask you to look at the notion of accepting ecclesiastical authority as you say, because you do not view this source as anything as fallible. I understand you also accept Confessions, as you are, I believe a Confessional Lutheran and in that regard there is an authority that you accept.

Correct?

Yes, I accept the authority of the Lutheran Confessions. I would also personally accept the authority of a council of bishops - and I personally have no problem at all with what the Pope has promulgated Ex Cathedra.

While I don’t intellectually believe in Papal Infallibility, I certainly hope it is true - If Catholics and Orthodox can work this issue out, I’m certain that I could easily concur.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, I accept the authority of the Lutheran Confessions. I would also personally accept the authority of a council of bishops - and I personally have no problem at all with what the Pope has promulgated Ex Cathedra.

While I don’t intellectually believe in Papal Infallibility, I certainly hope it is true - If Catholics and Orthodox can work this issue out, I’m certain that I could easily concur.

I would add to this universal jurisdiction, with the same caveat regarding Catholic / Orthodox agreement on the issue.

I might add, Ben, that it is only when the pope speaks ex cathedra, that he is speaking infallibly, as I understand it.
Jon

 

[bmonk]

Nope! No Catholic, nor Protesant! The third kind, remember.

See the foundation of the Catholic Church lies on the foundational belief that Jesus made Peter the head of the Church. Unfortunetly, Peter never said so, and neither did Paul who knew Peter well. Only Catholisism takes one scripture and makes it doctrine.

Peter said, one of the attributes attributed to the true Knowledge of Jesus was * godliness*! And lack of this attribute constitues blindness etc.

Confession of sinful acts, time after time, year after year, decade upon decade, acts only as a reminder that godliness has not taken root.

I won’t go on and on discussing the errors in Catholicism, For our High Priest is to be Christ, not any fallible man.

So, there you go! I guess I am seen as a separated brethern by the Catholic church, But there isn’t a denomination that laid down its life for me, only Jesus. He bought and paid for me, so I belong to Him, and no other shepherd do I follow,.

Amen.
Bar.

Not just being made explicit in words. Peter is mentioned much more than the rest of the Twelve put together, but even beyond the Scriptures, there is a long and unbroken tradition that Peter died at Rome, and Rome, because of that, had a special preeminence among the local churches. And the whole community of disciples continues as the Catholic Church, still strong in unity, in fidelity to the faith even after so many centuries, found throughout the world.

The Pope, nor the bishops, are not our high priests–Jesus is our high priest. The Pope “takes the place of Christ” as the Vicar of Christ, and head of the college of Bishops, heirs of the Apostles.

Furthermore, Jesus himself chose certain members–the Twelve, and the 72–to go out and share in the work of evangelization, spreading the Good News, healing and driving out spirits. How does following the shepherds that Christ chose, and those to whom they in turn handed on the work, mean that we are rejecting Christ as shepherd?