The proof of the existence of Jesus

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Hamba2han, thank you for reminding us of this great debt the Christian world owes to Islam.
You are most welcome.

This reminder that Jesus (pbuh) really existed is directed in particular at those who are doubting his existence in the “Judeo-Christian” societies of the West … but you are welcome just the same.
 
You are most welcome.

This reminder that Jesus (pbuh) really existed is directed in particular at those who are doubting his existence in the “Judeo-Christian” societies of the West … but you are welcome just the same.
Have u got a similar solution or help for me, who does not believe that Mohammed existed? 😃
 
Why should they believe the Qur’an if there is an element of doubt about the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?
You must be kidding now LOOOOOOOOL 😃
Why was a Jewess accorded the honour of having a whole chapter in the Qur’an named after her and yet not a single word was mentioned in it of the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was indeed a descendant of Ishmael (pbuh) and whose existence was not disputed at all.
Keep turning deaf ears on my previous remarks! 😉 Now I am almost convinced that you have a totally different version of the Koran that calls Maryam & Issa Jewish because in all the Korans I have read and examined so far such designation is refuted. 😛
Does it make much sense to you that Amina (ra) was not mentioned in the Qur’an and yet a Jewess whose existence may have been in doubt was so highly honoured by having a whole chapter named after her?
Maryam a Jewess in the Koran??? Where? :confused:
Amina was disregarded by Mohammed because everyone in Arabia knew well that she had lived & died as an idolater years before Mohammed found his true Allah! The naming of a chapter in the Koran after Maryam proves nothing because the second chapter (the longest one considered the zenith in Islam) is named after an idol some Hebrews worshipped in the desert! 😃
I have a better question: Why do u think Mohammed never allowed his scribes to mention his first beloved Khatijah in his scripture? :cool:
If there was even the slightest doubt about the existence of the Jewess and her son, then surely it would have made a great deal more sense to include the name of Amina (ra) in the Qur’an instead of Maryam (ra), don’t you think?
Mohammed had no doubt about Maryam & her son because he knew that many people invoked the name of Issa in churches & honoured Maryam as the holiest woman! Besides, his followers believed in everything that came out of his mouth without the slightest doubt! Mohammed considered himself the only checkpoint and reliable historical source, not caring about the historicity of the things & people he commanded Muslims to believe!
It is not faith but plain logic which makes the Qur’an far more convincing at proving the existence of Jesus (pbuh) than any written source before it.
Your logic, your assertions, and your faith make the Koran far more convincing only for YOU. Next time show me a single educated atheist from the Western society who confirms Jesus’ existence solely because he/she sees the testimony in the Koran. 😃

Thanks for this joyous debate. Peace,
Angelos N.
 
Have u got a similar solution or help for me, who does not believe that Mohammed existed? 😃
The fact that a cartoon of Mohammed published in Denmark caused muslims around the world to attack jews, kill nuns and riot, logically means that Mohammed existed.
 
The fact that a cartoon of Mohammed published in Denmark caused muslims around the world to attack jews, kill nuns and riot, logically means that Mohammed existed.
😃 LOL amazingly true indeed!

But now I am convinced by a bunch of angry Muslims, not through faith in the Koran :rotfl:
 
Why should they believe the Qur’an if there is an element of doubt about the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?
Because Muhammad had no doubt.

I repeat: from our perspective Islam is dependent on Judaism and Christianity for many of its most basic ideas. So of course one of those would be the existence of Jesus.

I also question your belief that there was sharp antagonism between Jews and Arabs in Muhammad’s day. There were whole Arab tribes that had converted to Judaism, for goodness’ sake!

Edwin
 
Texan in DC Said:
Originally Posted by hamba2han
Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived…
Sorry to bust your bubble but if you studied Jesus from a History stand point, you would know that the original and first debates among the “new Christians”, Jews, and many pagons. Was not that Jesus did not exist, but whether or not he was in fact the son of God, or even Divine.
A point of absolute fact 👍
 
As in Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Taoists among others… and even atheists and agnostics for that matter.
Are you trying to tell me that an atheist in a Muslim country believes Jesus existed because of the Koran, and an atheist in America still does not believe Jesus existed???
 
You are most welcome.
I guess you failed to pick up on the ironic sarcasm. The point being that Christians have always known Christ existed. That’s the point about being Christian. However…
This reminder that Jesus really existed is directed in particular at those who are doubting his existence in the “Judeo-Christian” societies of the West … but you are welcome just the same.
As these people undoubtedly also don’t believe in the Koran either, it’s just a futile exercise by you; or perhaps your intent is an oblique promotion of Islam.

So your OP is, rather pointless. At best you’re offering these people circular logic; the Koran says it, so it’s true, because the Koran says it.
 
Because Muhammad had no doubt.

I repeat: from our perspective Islam is dependent on Judaism and Christianity for many of its most basic ideas. So of course one of those would be the existence of Jesus.
Islam is totally NOT dependant on Judaism and Christianity because Muslims rely only on the ‘notes’ which were given to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by the same ‘teacher’ who taught Moses and Jesus (pbut).

Since these notes of Muhammad (pbuh) have remained 100% pure, why then should Muslims be dependant on the earlier notes of Moses and Jesus (pbut) which we believe have been corrupted by unscrupulous scribes and others who had their own agenda when they altered these notes?
Are you trying to tell me that an atheist in a Muslim country believes Jesus existed because of the Koran, and an atheist in America still does not believe Jesus existed???
What an atheist believes about Jesus (pbuh) would greatly depend on the cultural environment he or she is living in.

An atheist living in a Muslim country would have no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) and so he would also have little reason to doubt the existence of Jesus (pbuh).

By comparison, an atheist brought up in the environment of a “Judeo-Christian” Western society would not even consider the existence of Muhammad (pbuh) when he doubts or disputes the existence of Jesus (pbuh).
 
In the event that anyone is questioning the existence of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), then I have just one question for them:

Who brought the Qur’an to the world?

The Qur’an is the indisputable proof that Muhammad (pbuh) existed because all that is within it came from only his lips.

By comparison, is the Bible the indisputable proof that Jesus (pbuh) existed?
 
In the event that anyone is questioning the existence of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), then I have just one question for them:

Who brought the Qur’an to the world?

The Qur’an is the indisputable proof that Muhammad (pbuh) existed because all that is within it came from only his lips.

By comparison, is the Bible the indisputable proof that Jesus (pbuh) existed?
Yes, along with the evidence from first century historian Josephus and the Jewish Talmud’s testimony of his existence. Yes the bible is indisputable proof that Jesus existed. Also Josephus’s dating of the death of Herod the great has also been corrected to the original dating of 1BC(from the typo of 4BC introduced by copiests in the 15 hundreds), and there was roman patriot order in 2BC after all.

The real question is, is it proof he was the son of god?
 
I can appreciate the sentiment, but the Koran would never be a proof for me, as it is not inspired text. The God that drove Moses, and that God that Jesus was, is not the god that revealed the contents of the Koran to Mohamed.
Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians are not fully aware of is that it is none other than the Qur’an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur’an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.
 
I don’t think it is a question of doubting that Mohamed existed - it is a question of whether or not the Koran is the inerrant word of God…contrast it with Jesus’ teachings - you’ll see it cannot be.
In the event that anyone is questioning the existence of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), then I have just one question for them:

Who brought the Qur’an to the world?

The Qur’an is the indisputable proof that Muhammad (pbuh) existed because all that is within it came from only his lips.

By comparison, is the Bible the indisputable proof that Jesus (pbuh) existed?
 
In the event that anyone is questioning the existence of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), then I have just one question for them:

Who brought the Qur’an to the world?

The Qur’an is the indisputable proof that Muhammad (pbuh) existed because all that is within it came from only his lips.
Listen to my answer to your question: Mohammed’s fallible scribes brought the Koran to the world. 😛

How can you prove that all that’s written within the Koran came from only his lips? Mohammed did not live long enough to see the Koran as a single book! When he passed away, his words were dancing in the minds of a bunch of Arabs, who most likely tampered with their beloved messenger’s teachings! 😃 (After that Omar corrupted the Koran altogether and laid the foundations of today’s Islam!)

Your proof sounds like this: “You have to believe everything I say because I never tell lies; I never tell lies because I believe” :rotfl:

No evidence so far! I still doubt Mohammed existed even though I live in an Islamic country in the Middle East. 😉

Peace to you,
Angelos N. (ex Muslim)
 
Islam is totally NOT dependant on Judaism and Christianity because Muslims rely only on the ‘notes’ which were given to Prophet Muhammad by the same ‘teacher’ who taught Moses and Jesus
And the proof of that is in the Koran which says it is, so it is.
Since these notes of Muhammad have remained 100% pure, why then should Muslims be dependant on the earlier notes of Moses and Jesus which we believe have been corrupted by unscrupulous scribes and others who had their own agenda when they altered these notes?
That’s not true. There are interpolations by Muhammad himself! There’s frequent changes of person in the Koran, to where Muhammad himself is speaking instead of al-lah
The very beginning of the Koran states…

1 In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2 All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3 The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4 The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5 You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6 Guide us to the Straight Way

7 The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Clearly these are the words of Muhammed, speaking to and about Al-lah, they are not the words of al-lah.

6:114

“Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur’an), explained in detail.” Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.

These too, are the words of Muhammed.

Even more clear, is where Muhammed names himself…

6: 101 He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .

102 Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.

103 No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.

104 Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.

51: 50 So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.

Obviously Muhammed forgot that he’s not meant to be the author of the Koran.

He gets even more confused when it’s angels now narrating…

37: 161 So, verily you (pagans) and those whom you worship (idols).

162 Cannot lead astray [turn away from Him (Allah) anyone of the believers],

163 Except those who are predestined to burn in Hell!

164 There is not one of us (angels) but has his known place (or position);

165 Verily, we (angels), we stand in rows for the prayers (as you Muslims stand in rows for your prayers);

166 Verily, we (angels), we are they who glorify (Allah’s Praises i.e. perform prayers).

Muhammed is the author of the Koran, and occasionally he forgot that he wasn’t supposed to be, but he made a few slip-ups.
What an atheist believes about Jesus would greatly depend on the cultural environment he or she is living in.
An atheist living in a Muslim country would have no reason to doubt the existence of Muhammad and so he would also have little reason to doubt the existence of Jesus .
Implying that a huge number of atheists convert after visiting Moslem nations.
 
Angelos, I do not believe that you seriously doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh).

How do you plan to prove that you really have doubts that he existed when at the same time you assert that it was his scribes who bought the Qur’an to the world?

How on earth can Muhammad (pbuh) have scribes and companions if he did not exist in the first place?

And as for the assertion that Muhammad (pbuh) is the author of the Qur’an and that he interpolated some of the verses, this will be explained in another thread about the Qur’an, God-willing, as this is not the subject of this thread.
 
Angelos, I do not believe that you seriously doubt the existence of Muhammad (pbuh).

How do you plan to prove that you really have doubts that he existed when at the same time you assert that it was his scribes who bought the Qur’an to the world?

How on earth can Muhammad (pbuh) have scribes and companions if he did not exist in the first place?
Mohammed was a notion, not a real person! At that time there were many people who strove to replace paganism with monotheism, and the club of such people attributed their philosophy to a certain person named Mohammed, a primarily mythological character that was declared by those scribes as the last prophet sent to mankind.

But who knows? Maybe I shall come to believe that Mohammed existed because of so many Christians criticizing the Koran & repeating his name! Miraculous biblical evidence for Mohammed’s historic existence :rotfl:

Peace to you my former brother in faith,
Angelos N.
 
Yes, along with the evidence from first century historian Josephus and the Jewish Talmud’s testimony of his existence. Yes the bible is indisputable proof that Jesus existed. Also Josephus’s dating of the death of Herod the great has also been corrected to the original dating of 1BC(from the typo of 4BC introduced by copiests in the 15 hundreds), and there was roman patriot order in 2BC after all.

The real question is, is it proof he was the son of god?
I’m sure you know the Josephus quotes concerning Jesus are suspect. I’m a 21st century Jew and I believe Jesus existed. Feel free to cite me in future posts.
 
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