The proof of the existence of Jesus

[Montalban]

When did I allude that the atheist in a Muslim country has to believe in the truth of the Qur’an in order to believe in the existence of Jesus?

In your opening post

 

[George_Waters]

hamba2han,

Perhaps you can answer something for me? Why do so many Muslim apologist on this forum begin threads and then abandon them when their “evidence” does not convince anyone but themselves? I have noticed this time and time again. When one thread backfires it is ignored and a new one is begun. It seems Islam can not even win intellectual battles when Muslims pick the topic. Just an observation based on the behavior of many Muslim members of this thread…

 

[hamba2han]

I would usually lose interest in continuing a discussion or debate when the other party starts basing his or her arguments on emotions rather than facts.

 

[George_Waters]

I would usually lose interest in continuing a discussion or debate when the other party starts basing his or her arguments on emotions rather than facts.

Fair enough however, I have am still waiting on your rebuttal to facts. Fact: Shaikh Ahmad Yassin, Khalid Mish`al and Ramadan Shalah have all openly encouraged and endorsed suicide bombing attacks against Jews, and indicated that they have the capacity to stop these murders from happening. Fact: These men are Muslims. Fact: They all claim to be following the Quran. So I ask again, based on the facts how are these good Muslim men honoring Mary or Jesus?

 

[hamba2han]

Fair enough however, I have am still waiting on your rebuttal to facts. Fact: Shaikh Ahmad Yassin, Khalid Mish`al and Ramadan Shalah have all openly encouraged and endorsed suicide bombing attacks against Jews, and indicated that they have the capacity to stop these murders from happening. Fact: These men are Muslims. Fact: They all claim to be following the Quran. So I ask again, based on the facts how are these good Muslim men honoring Mary or Jesus?

I cannot see the connection here.

Do Jews regard Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) with reverence?

I don’t think so… in fact, I believe it to be quite the opposite.

And so, what has the 3 men you mentioned honouring Jesus (pbuh) and Maryam (ra) got anything to do with their supposed support for suicide bombers?

Again, I wish to remind that this is off-topic and is a subject that I really have no interest in discussing on this thread… or anywhere on these boards for that matter.

 

[Booklover]

I would usually lose interest in continuing a discussion or debate when the other party starts basing his or her arguments on emotions rather than facts.

That’s a non-answer! You don’t respond because you don’t have an answer or the “facts” to prove your point!

Vickie

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

The simplest position is Muihammed existed, said a bunch of stiuff which he claimed was inspired revelation, and collated and edited after his death.

In the United States, we have a dude who historicaly did the same thing–however, unlike scaresly populated Arabia, when our false prophet (yes i am calling Muhammed such) started laying claim to other men’s wives and getting military & political ambitions, it ended up getting him killed–that dude being Joseph Smith Jr., founder of the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (mormons)”

Like Muhammed, Joe Smith claimed inspiration from an angel–like Muhammed Joe Smith refered to the bible for “corrobaration”–and like Muhammed, Joe Smith’s "revelations’ show all the signs of being the creation a singular man living in a particular time and place, limited to the knowledge availible to him in that time and place

 

[inJESUS]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians are not fully aware of is that it is none other than the Qur’an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur’an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.

this is illogical, sorry. If the Quran or Muhammad believed Jesus exist, the NT as well ! the proof we got belong to the first century of Christianity, in addition to non-Christian sources. The proof you got is one man, 600 years later, claiming to receive his words via an angel, with no one proof. Logic says, Christians’ proof are much more historical than Islamic ones

 

[inJESUS]

Like I said, the verses of the Qur’an were revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) over a period of 23 years and witnessed by hundreds if not thousands of people throughout this period and therefore it is the indisputable proof that he existed.

If anyone wishes to dispute this, then they really do need to explain how exactly did the Qur’an come into being if not from the lips of Muhammad (pbuh).

An atheist might not doubt muhammad existed, but does he believe what he said is the truth? then he’d be a Muslim! i saw no atheist who believes Jesus existed because Muhammad said so!!

i do believe Muhammad existed and that the Quran is his words, and the words of apocrypha and gnostic writers.

 

[George_Waters]

I cannot see the connection here.

Do Jews regard Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) with reverence?

I don’t think so… in fact, I believe it to be quite the opposite.

And so, what has the 3 men you mentioned honouring Jesus (pbuh) and Maryam (ra) got anything to do with their supposed support for suicide bombers?

Again, I wish to remind that this is off-topic and is a subject that I really have no interest in discussing on this thread… or anywhere on these boards for that matter.

I am sorry you don’t see the connection. YOU are the one that kept bringing up the fact that Mary was a Jew and how Muslim’s honor her. Was this simply a feeble attempt to show how open and understanding Islam is? Christians honor the Jewish people for giving us so many prophets, etc., etc., but we find no cause to murder them based on what some else came up with centuries later. And while all Jews may not honor Mary and Jesus they don’t kill each other over it.

While I will respect your wishes and will not pursue this any further, note that the men I mentioned HAVE ENCOURAGED AND SUPPORTED SUCIDE BOMBERS AGAINST JEWS. That is a FACT. No “supposed” there my friend.

 

[Montgomeryatty]

Frankly I think a lot of folks on this post are getting a little too overheated. It seems to this Protestant walking towards Rome that people see “Koran” and/or “Muslim” or other words related to Islam and lose their temper.

It may be lost on some of you, and it may be a moot point to many, but it seems to me that hamba is trying to make a very small, but nonetheless beneficial, point here. He’s not converting to Christianity, he’s not saying he loves Jews or Christians, he is merely contributing his 2 cents to note that a religion quite antithetical to Christianity as a whole, and probably more antithetical to Judaism as a whole, nonetheless recognizes the importance and primacy in history of Jesus and his mother the Blessed Virgin Mary. That’s it. That’s all he’s saying.

His point should be noted: Why would a religion, of which the majority of its adherents desire to exterminate the Jews and/or regard women in a lower social status, accord such dignity to a female Jew and/or her Jewish son? A logical answer would be that those individuals not only existed but were strikingly important to the course of world events. This is but one of several million facts that a believer could perhaps profitably use to prove the existence of Jesus. And its utility comes from the fact that a Muslim isn’t just an “uninterested observer,” but in various contexts is an unabashed enemy of Christianity.

As a lawyer, I’d love to have as many “hostile” witnesses testifying on behalf of my client as I could get.

Lay off off hamba unless you have reason to believe that he is IN THIS VERY THREAD trying to make a pro-Islam, anti-Christian, or anti-Jew statement.

 

[George_Waters]

Montgomeryatty,

You have raised some very valid points and articulated them quite well. However, some of hamba2han’s statements does lead one to believe he is making a pro-Islam/anti-Christian statement. For example the first sentence of this thread; “Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.” Can this not be seen with little or no effort as an affront against Christianity? The second sentence seems likewise the same; “Actually, the good news that most Christians are not fully aware of is that it is none other than the Qur’an which is the proof that he existed.” We know for a fact that the Quran is not “the proof” He existed. This seems quite obvious that this is an attempt to show the “failing” of Christianity and the “triumph” of Islam.

Many Christians feel it is a grave insult to claim you have reverence for Jesus while ignoring His commands, His morality and His divinity so that you may follow the worldly and greedy desires of a mere man.

Perhaps some of us have been too hard on hamba2han, myself most certainly included, but if threads are going to begin with sentences such as the ones that began this thread I am confident the subsequent posts will be of the same nature.

God Bless!

 

[Mr.Bee]

Frankly I think a lot of folks on this post are getting a little too overheated. It seems to this Protestant walking towards Rome that people see “Koran” and/or “Muslim” or other words related to Islam and lose their temper.

It may be lost on some of you, and it may be a moot point to many, but it seems to me that hamba is trying to make a very small, but nonetheless beneficial, point here. He’s not converting to Christianity, he’s not saying he loves Jews or Christians, he is merely contributing his 2 cents to note that a religion quite antithetical to Christianity as a whole, and probably more antithetical to Judaism as a whole, nonetheless recognizes the importance and primacy in history of Jesus and his mother the Blessed Virgin Mary. That’s it. That’s all he’s saying.

His point should be noted: Why would a religion, of which the majority of its adherents desire to exterminate the Jews and/or regard women in a lower social status, accord such dignity to a female Jew and/or her Jewish son? A logical answer would be that those individuals not only existed but were strikingly important to the course of world events. This is but one of several million facts that a believer could perhaps profitably use to prove the existence of Jesus. And its utility comes from the fact that a Muslim isn’t just an “uninterested observer,” but in various contexts is an unabashed enemy of Christianity.

As a lawyer, I’d love to have as many “hostile” witnesses testifying on behalf of my client as I could get.

Lay off off hamba unless you have reason to believe that he is IN THIS VERY THREAD trying to make a pro-Islam, anti-Christian, or anti-Jew statement.

Finally, somebody with manners.

Thank you Montgomeryatty for eloquently stating what I wanted to say the whole time I read through this frustrating thread. I suppose it is just the nature of internet communication along with the fact that we are discussing religion that conjours up a dangerous mix of angry emotions. I originally thought hamba’s question was a gesture of peace, not an antagonistic threat to anyones faith. I found it genuinely interesting the point hamba brought up, accurate or not, but it just goes to illustrate that there might be some truth and validity to what Islam teaches, that not all Muslims want to kill me and my children.

Why do we (and I include myself) take it so personally when our faith and religion is challenged? I figure God can take care of himself and nothing I can say to an arrogant opinion will make any difference to God. Oh yeah, I’ll probably get an ear-ful from many of you regarding my passive and cowardly attitude, but to tell you the truth, you know nothing about me, my faith and my struggles, this internet forum is a bad place for proving my devotion.

So I’ll feebly try and answer hamba2han’s question:

Admittedly I’m afraid I’m unsure of the facts and unfortunatly will provide only an opinion based on limited info. but it seems ironic that Mary and Jesus are mentioned in Islam, which seems to me like an obvious signal to both religions that we’re missing the point. I think God, in his infinite wisdom and sense of justice, gave Islam to the Arab people, since Christians and Jews were unwilling to share their… our God. But there is no denying the truth, so Jesus had to be included, why wouldn’t he? He brought truth to everybody.

The problem is: We’re all human, and stupid, and selfish. we can’t even take a gift like Jesus and use his advice correctly. So we get angry, and fight, and kill over it.

I’d rather be friends with Muslims than “win” with my religion. But then again, I’m misguided and ignorant and surly will offend many Christians. So don’t listen to me and go on with your “discussions”.

 

[Montgomeryatty]

George:

Concerning your quotes from hamba’s post, I’m unsure whether they constitute an affront to Christianity. Yes, they call into question the tireless and quite scholarly work of Christians of all stripes who seek to prove that God and Jesus exist (as one who grew up Protestant, I was always fond of Josh McDowell’s work, especially his “The Evidence that Demands a Verdict” which was aimed primarily at doing just this). And like you, I also dispute the idea that the Koran is “the truth.”

But it can’t be forgotten that the lion’s share of Christians are unable in their daily lives to offer a single solitary reason for their faith in God other than that, well. . . . , we, um, . . .we have faith! That won’t convert anyone any more than having faith in a light bulb. Few know about the archological evidence, the writings supporting their existence by people whose vested interest would be for God and/or Jesus to not exist, the amazing correlations between ancient languages and biblical stories (look up the Chinese word for “tempter” or “devil” and note its relationship to Eden), and so on. There are probably lots of folks who, if they heard hamba’s little factoid, would at least have the first arrow in their quiver to argue Jesus’s existence. For these folks, although I’m a staunch Christian who denies the truth of Islam, I have to admit that Islam is a great witness for us on this solitary point.

Mr Bee: Thank you for applauding my efforts. But please don’t misunderstand me: I share your view that hamba’s post was largely a peaceful gesture, and that sometimes we are stuck outside of our comfort zone when dealing with such vastly different religions. But let me note two areas where I divert from your post:

(1) The problem is not responding to a religious assertion different from our our own that is problematic; it is doing so without a solid basis and in a calm and rational manner. One of the strongest motivators for me to explore Roman Catholicism was the overwhelming irrational and emotional response I got from Protestants when just the very word “Catholic” was mentioned (especially here in the Heart of Dixie). People get red-faced, they stammer, they just can’t BELIEVE any sane person would contemplate it, because they just KNOW that Catholics are just cult members who are cavorting about with the whore of Babylon. But they have no basis for their assertion, and their emotionalism demonstrates not a sincerity of believes but rather that they’re substituting emotion for logic. It was this emptiness of the response, which I used to exhibit myself, that led me to wonder if perhaps there was some merit to the RCC.

(2) Although I’ve never looked into Ishmael and the statements/prophesies surrounding him, I’m hesitant to say that God “gave” Islam to Arabs. Perhaps God foreknew that they would not adhere to a Christian/Jewish faith, but I don’t think its quite right to say he “gave” them an indisputably false religion. Although the devotion and sincerity of most Muslims is something to give us laxadaisical Christians pause, let’s not go overboard and presume that their devotion and sincerity indicates that Islam is true. Again, I agree that Islam may contain “some” truth, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Maybe you really believe the truth of Islam Mr. Bee, I don’t know. Maybe you’re simply fairly open to new perspectives. But don’t forget that Catholicism used to be called the fighting faith. And this wasn’t necessarily because Catholics were warlike, but because the faith was worth fighting for. But in any event, let’s not go overboard in evaluating hamba’s comments

 

[Mr.Bee]

Mr Bee: Thank you for applauding my efforts. But please don’t misunderstand me: I share your view that hamba’s post was largely a peaceful gesture, and that sometimes we are stuck outside of our comfort zone when dealing with such vastly different religions. But let me note two areas where I divert from your post:

(1) The problem is not responding to a religious assertion different from our our own that is problematic; it is doing so without a solid basis and in a calm and rational manner. One of the strongest motivators for me to explore Roman Catholicism was the overwhelming irrational and emotional response I got from Protestants when just the very word “Catholic” was mentioned (especially here in the Heart of Dixie). People get red-faced, they stammer, they just can’t BELIEVE any sane person would contemplate it, because they just KNOW that Catholics are just cult members who are cavorting about with the whore of Babylon. But they have no basis for their assertion, and their emotionalism demonstrates not a sincerity of believes but rather that they’re substituting emotion for logic. It was this emptiness of the response, which I used to exhibit myself, that led me to wonder if perhaps there was some merit to the RCC.

(2) Although I’ve never looked into Ishmael and the statements/prophesies surrounding him, I’m hesitant to say that God “gave” Islam to Arabs. Perhaps God foreknew that they would not adhere to a Christian/Jewish faith, but I don’t think its quite right to say he “gave” them an indisputably false religion. Although the devotion and sincerity of most Muslims is something to give us laxadaisical Christians pause, let’s not go overboard and presume that their devotion and sincerity indicates that Islam is true. Again, I agree that Islam may contain “some” truth, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Maybe you really believe the truth of Islam Mr. Bee, I don’t know. Maybe you’re simply fairly open to new perspectives. But don’t forget that Catholicism used to be called the fighting faith. And this wasn’t necessarily because Catholics were warlike, but because the faith was worth fighting for. But in any event, let’s not go overboard in evaluating hamba’s comments

Montgomeryatty,

Thank you for your thought-provoking response. I must admit that a good portion of my response was motivated by emotion and aimed more at the tone of the thread and not necessarily at the facts. I was somewhat angered at the overall atmosphere of this thread (and many other threads) and felt compelled to react, I chose to respond to what I thought was a like-minded member… but I flatter myself…

For the record: I’m am a life-long Catholic experiencing a conflict and struggle with my faith - although I take comfort in the thought that - faith without doubt is superstition. I do not necessarily believe in Islam, in fact my opinion of Islam is severely tainted by their actions and history, obviously conflicting any claims of peace. But the same hypocritical attitude can be said of Christians too, eh? Or anybody for that matter, Christians as a group are mean (IMHO) It’s “my way or the highway” and even though the say they accept everybody like Jesus does, they don’t. Period. Islam, as hamba pointed out(forgive me if I assume something here), claims to accept everybody… as long as you’re Muslim. Christians and Muslims need to realize that to the rest of the world (whoever they are) we appear to be a closed-minded, angry and judgemental groups, regardless of how kind and peaceful individuals may be.

Regarding my comment on God giving Islam to the Arabs, I realize how superficial and pat that might seem, a purely uninformed statement intended to illustrate a point, I apologize if it appears ignorant and morally relativistic (sp?) But you know, all of us non-Muslims need to come to terms with the fact that Islam exists, and is growing. Why? This irrational hatred toward each other has an explanition, the “I’m right and you’re wrong” answer doesn’t cut it with me, I want a real answer.

I think Christians need to look at themselves to answer any question about Islam. And ultimatly I think nobody is going to like the truth.

 

[yugnok]

This is not about convincing those who already believe in Jesus (pbuh) about the truth of his existence, it is about providing convincing proof to the many doubters who do not believe that he actually lived.

Like I mentioned in my original post, considering that there are many who doubt and question whether there really was such a historical figure named Jesus, it is obvious that Christians have not been able to do this by relying on Jewish and early Christians accounts.

This is where there is a big difference between the faith of Christians and Muslims for unlike Christians, Muslims do not at all rely on Jewish scriptures and writings in order to strengthen our own faith and convictions.

For those who doubt or dispute the existence of Jesus (pbuh), then I wish for them to provide a plausible answer to this question:

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that are written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), then why are the descendants of Ishmael wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even the slightest possibility that they did not exist in history?

Who are these people that don’t believe that Jesus existed? Proving that Jesus existed has never been a problem for Christians.

There are numerous non-Christian sources that point to Jesus’ existence. Even the most Christian hating atheistic scholars believe Jesus existed. They just say he is not the person Christians claim him to be (the Son of God). The kind of people that would doubt the existence of Jesus are the same kind of people that would also doubt the existence of Muhammad. They won’t believe anything religious, in spite of whatever evidence is presented, because they hate religion. There are very few of these people, because even most athiests believe that historical evidence is reliable.

The evidence that Jesus existed is clear without any Christian or Jewish scriptures. The Qur’an adds nothing to the evidence that Jesus existed because it was written several centuries after Christ.

You write:

“The Qur’an is the indisputable proof that Muhammad (pbuh) existed because all that is within it came from only his lips.”

The same kind of people that would say Jesus never existed would just say the Qur’an was written by someone else because they don’t believe in the Qur’an. You have to prove that Muhammad wrote it. Simply. appealing to the Qur’an won’t work.

Again, proving that Jesus existed has never been and never will be a problem for Christians. Proving that Muhammad existed will never be a problem for Muslims. Neither of us have to appeal to our scriptures to prove it. It is done by appealing to historical sources–even non-christian and non-muslim sources.

 

[Mr.Bee]

Maybe you really believe the truth of Islam Mr. Bee, I don’t know. Maybe you’re simply fairly open to new perspectives. But don’t forget that Catholicism used to be called the fighting faith. And this wasn’t necessarily because Catholics were warlike, but because the faith was worth fighting for. But in any event, let’s not go overboard in evaluating hamba’s comments

Fair enough.

But taking a different and far more complicated path, you mentioned you were a lawyer(?) Would the evidence presented by both Christians and Muslims defending or proving their faith hold up in court? (I already read Lee Strobels book "The Case for Christ, so thanks anyway for recommending it everybody) It just seems to me to be frustrating heresay? Just because it is written doesn’t make it true. Just look at the internet, the accuracy of most of the information is dubious at best. It is human nature to make things up, get things wrong, so it is not unreasonable to doubt scriptures at face value?

I don’t intend to belligerently question anyones faith, just a question. It’s just that I don’t see God in the bible or any other sacred writings, I don’t understand them therefore I don’t trust them, and I certaintly don’t trust a lot of the people telling me they understand the bible.

I see God and Jesus in other things, that’s just me.

 

[hamba2han]

Montgomeryatty and Mr.Bee, thank you for reafirming and articulating my views on the matter somewhat accurately although I would hasten to add that I for one have no desire at all to “exterminate the Jews and/or regard women in a lower social status”… and neither do I personally know of any Muslim who does.

As for the Muslims today not being particularly good ambassadors for their faith, I for one won’t argue against that charge,

However, I just like to say that we should not judge whether or not a certain make of car is good merely by looking at the behaviour or attitude of the people driving the car.

If an irresponsible or reckless driver manages to crash a Mercedes or a Lexus into a tree, who are we going to blame for the mishap – the car or the driver?

Likewise, we should not judge other faiths by the behaviour of their followers but rather, our judgment should solely be based on examining either the truths or the falsehoods that are found in their scriptures.

BTW, I see more proof of the existence of the Creator in just a single episode of ‘Animal Planet’ than in all the scriptures of the world combined… but that’s just me.

 

[Mr.Bee]

BTW, I see more proof of the existence of the Creator in just a single episode of ‘Animal Planet’ than in all the scriptures of the world combined… but that’s just me.

It’s funny how God works.

I came looking for answers, and it was provided in the most unexpected way.

Thank you friends,