The Protestant Implosion

[Dave_Noonan]

I was under the impression that the Catholic Church is on the rise in the US. The polls from 2011 indicate this:

Source:
christianpost.com/news/2011-church-membership-southern-baptists-decline-cults-growing-48984/

See the last update for 2012:

“The Catholic Church, the nation’s largest at 68.2 million members, reported a membership decline of .44 percent.”

ncccusa.org/news/120209yearbook2012.html

As I recall, there was also a decline in 2010. While this doesn’t seem that significant in percentage terms, because the Catholic Church in the US is so large, the number of people in absolute terms is also large.

And really this only tells part of the story. Membership numbers for all Christian groups are likely inflated by quite a bit due to rolls/parish registrations that need to purged.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I was under the impression that the Catholic Church is on the rise in the US. The polls from 2011 indicate this:

Source:
christianpost.com/news/2011-church-membership-southern-baptists-decline-cults-growing-48984/

See the last update for 2012:

“The Catholic Church, the nation’s largest at 68.2 million members, reported a membership decline of .44 percent.”

ncccusa.org/news/120209yearbook2012.html

As I recall, there was also a decline in 2010. While this doesn’t seem that significant in percentage terms, because the Catholic Church in the US is so large, the number of people in absolute terms is also large.

And really this only tells part of the story. Membership numbers for all Christian groups are likely inflated by quite a bit due to rolls/parish registrations that need to purged.

 

[FrederickOz]

I spent some years in college in an agressively evangelistic non-denominational community and noticed something that may be related here. Of the 100 or so people in the group over that time, probably 48% of them grew up in a mainline protestant congregation, about 10% grew up in evangelical congregations and around 40% grew up catholic and converted. Maybe 2% had grown up in household in which God was ignored or not believed in at all.

I can’t say if my experience is representative, but I’d suspect that it is. If so, the numbers evangelicals are putting up really aren’t that impressive. They mostly aren’t converting the unbelievers to Christ, they are just reaping harvests that others sowed. Worse, as others here have noted, their brand of enthusiasm-based faith often is short lived and isn’t passed on well to children. In actual practice, it is often the exit ramp of christianity. Heck, even the founder of the so-called “Freedom From Religion Foundation” used to be an evangelical preacher (the self-appointed kind, not formally ordained by any congregation). The intention in those communities is clearly to convert the world to Christ. But my experience has been more that they convert nominal christians on the slow road to conversion into flash in the pan believers that quickly burn out.

I am glad you raised this point. I mentioned iit in another r thread about how evangelicals are simply hitting on Catholics in South America and other places rather than converting atheists (but to be fair they also do a bit of that too)

 

[benjammin]

How many protestants today actually consider themselves Protestant. Many Evangelicals I know simply call themselves Christian. I even had one of my friends ask what a Protestant was. I simply said “Well you are” . I think though that even that will implode. I think a lot of people who join evangelical groups fall away or join other groups due to how individualistic it is. I mean I had a friend who stated how the mainline churches used to be good but now their not. Now if some non-denom church goes astray, the more conservative people will stay, those who don’t feel anything will leave, while there will probably be few hangers on.

 

[JakeG]

I thought people here might be interested in some research carried out by the Christian Research Association in Australia.

This from their website:

Pointers: Are Australians ‘Losing their Religion’?

Some of the more interesting statistics:

Percentage of respondents switching to “no religion” by denomination in which raised:

Pentecostal: 4

Orthodox: 7

Baptist: 15

Catholic: 28

Uniting: 36

Anglican: 41

Lutheran: 43

In other words, only 4% of Pentacostals switched to “no religion” compared to 28% of Catholics and 43% of Lutherans.

Here are retention rates by denomination according to the report:

Orthodox: 90

Pentecostal: 88

Catholic: 65

Uniting: 48

Anglican: 44

Baptist: 44

Lutheran: 43

So 90% of people raised as Orthodox remained Orthodox when they became adults compared to 65% of Catholics and only 43% of Lutherans.

Anyone know of any comparable studies in the US?

 

[FrederickOz]

The orthodox figure is high because people see it as a cultural /ethnic attribute not because of religion.

 

[FrederickOz]

I thought people here might be interested in some research carried out by the Christian Research Association in Australia.

This from their website:

Pointers: Are Australians ‘Losing their Religion’?

Some of the more interesting statistics:

Percentage of respondents switching to “no religion” by denomination in which raised:

Pentecostal: 4

Orthodox: 7

Baptist: 15

Catholic: 28

Uniting: 36

Anglican: 41

Lutheran: 43

In other words, only 4% of Pentacostals switched to “no religion” compared to 28% of Catholics and 43% of Lutherans.

Here are retention rates by denomination according to the report:

Orthodox: 90

Pentecostal: 88

Catholic: 65

Uniting: 48

Anglican: 44

Baptist: 44

Lutheran: 43

So 90% of people raised as Orthodox remained Orthodox when they became adults compared to 65% of Catholics and only 43% of Lutherans.

Anyone know of any comparable studies in the US?

Looking at the website, whats interesting to me is that Catholics have the smallest % of people who switch religion. It seems that those who don’t believe in The catholic church tend to have no faith rather Han switch to other denominations. Although what you will find is that because the catholic church starts with the most believers the small percentage might still mean big numbers.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I thought people here might be interested in some research carried out by the Christian Research Association in Australia.

This from their website:

Pointers: Are Australians ‘Losing their Religion’?

Some of the more interesting statistics:

Percentage of respondents switching to “no religion” by denomination in which raised:

Pentecostal: 4
Orthodox: 7
Baptist: 15
Catholic: 28
Uniting: 36
Anglican: 41
Lutheran: 43

In other words, only 4% of Pentacostals switched to “no religion” compared to 28% of Catholics and 43% of Lutherans.

Here are retention rates by denomination according to the report:

Orthodox: 90
Pentecostal: 88
Catholic: 65
Uniting: 48
Anglican: 44
Baptist: 44
Lutheran: 43

So 90% of people raised as Orthodox remained Orthodox when they became adults compared to 65% of Catholics and only 43% of Lutherans.

Anyone know of any comparable studies in the US?

As an Australian who “switched” from Protestant (Presbyterian / Wesleyan Methodist) to Catholic, I might make a couple of comments -

First the Pentecostals probably get a real experience of “God” in their worship service - speaking in tongues and other phenomena. As such they are not in the same situation as someone who has simply grown up in a denomination, whether Catholic or Protestant, and whose experience of “God” has been inadequate or non-existent.

The Orthodox as someone else said probably see their Orthodoxy as part of their ethnic heritage in what is still a Protestant based society (Australia was formally Anglican for quite some time, and Catholics were discriminated against). And most of the Orthodox would have come to Australia after World War II as refugees or migrants. I’ve heard it said that apart from Athens, there are more Greeks in Melbourne, capital of the state of Victoria than in any other Greek city.

In both cases Catholics are midway between fundamentalist and mainline Protestant denominations. In the case of switching and retaining religion, a lot of Catholics in Australia, whether active or not, have been through years of training in Catholic schools and high schools at least. So they have a strong formal background. This is not the case for myself incidentally, as I was an adult convert in my early forties. On the other hand, I’ve had quite a number of spiritual experiences which I think could be described as “more than usual”.

That’s not the case with the mainline Protestant denominations. While there’s been a move to more Christian schools in recent years, the fact is most Protestant adults today would probably have been educated in public or non-religious private schools. So the only religion they got was church, or RE in school (which was a standing joke at the high school I went to).

So they haven’t had the educational indoctrination of Catholics.

Hence the Catholics fare better than the mainline Protestants, but more poorly than Orthodox (cultural identity) or Pentecostals (experience of God).

What does surprise me is that Catholics had a better retention rate than Baptists. My wife’s Baptist, and as my old Pastor once commented, “They (Baptists) have a very strong sense of being ‘Baptist’ - much more so than say Presbyterians have of being ‘Presbyterian’ for example”. They’re pretty enthusiastic, and it surprises me to hear the retention rate is lower than that of Catholics, who in my experience are nowhere near as enthusiastic.

Those are my comments.

I suppose the answer to the decline is an “experience of God” for Catholics. This needs to be twofold - one is to be convinced that God exists, and that He knows us. I received this myself in the form of “double whammies” on three distinct occasions when something like a breath went through me in waves from head to foot to highlight something someone else was saying at the time. Since it was probably a year or so between first and third occasion, I had moved billions, and probably trillions of kilometres in the meantime. But He still knew precisely where to find me, what was about to be said, what I needed to know, and how to get my attention without anybody else knowing.

The other side of the coin is that we all need one hell of a good scare. I’ve had that too - the night my father died he appeared in my room. He finished the exchange by screaming in sheer absolute terror just befoe he disappeared. It was his judgement.

The other occasion was a sense that I was going to literally disintegrate when I was driving to the church one night years ago. I was getting a bit pally in my mind with God, and this very unpleasant sense of anger descended on me. I had to pull over into a side street until this burning sensation passed. I’d been on my way to a gym we had under the church, but I was too shaken to continue. So I went home again.

I think we could do with another Ananias and Sapphira for example.

Provided it’s not me of course.

The reality is that Frankenstorm Sandy is a mere pebble compared to God’s power. He set the entire system up. If He goes ahead with the judgement verbalised by Mary at Akita in Japan circa 1970 or so, we’ll know about it.

But by then it will be too late for a lot of people.

 

[manualman]

I was under the impression that the Catholic Church is on the rise in the US. The polls from 2011 indicate this:

American born catholics are as likely to leave as average American born protestants. Our numbers are just propped up by the high rate of immigration from traditionally catholic South America. Take them out of the equation and we hemorrage believers as fast as the mainline protestants.

The reasons are complex, but I believe it has a lot to do with a crisis of faith across our culture. It is a divide between those who believe in a God who loves us enough to intervene supernaturally in this world in order to reveal Himself to us versus those who believe God is merely a distant watcher at best during this life. The protestants experienced this gulf first and it is manifested in the divide between the mainline denominations (dominated by the latter group) and the evangelicals (dominated by the former). It came to a head in catholicism in the 1960’s when the pseudo-deists dominated the catholic hierarchy in this country and most of the intellectual positions in the church. But that form of faith is almost totally sterile and they’ve mostly gotten old, retired or died off without producing spiritual offspring. In the last 15 years, the ones appointed as bishops, ordained priests and studying theology have finally been actual believers again. I think we’re due for a crop of growth.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I spent some years in college in an agressively evangelistic non-denominational community and noticed something that may be related here. Of the 100 or so people in the group over that time, probably 48% of them grew up in a mainline protestant congregation, about 10% grew up in evangelical congregations and around 40% grew up catholic and converted. Maybe 2% had grown up in household in which God was ignored or not believed in at all.

I can’t say if my experience is representative, but I’d suspect that it is. If so, the numbers evangelicals are putting up really aren’t that impressive. They mostly aren’t converting the unbelievers to Christ, they are just reaping harvests that others sowed. Worse, as others here have noted, their brand of enthusiasm-based faith often is short lived and isn’t passed on well to children. In actual practice, it is often the exit ramp of christianity. Heck, even the founder of the so-called “Freedom From Religion Foundation” used to be an evangelical preacher (the self-appointed kind, not formally ordained by any congregation). The intention in those communities is clearly to convert the world to Christ. But my experience has been more that they convert nominal christians on the slow road to conversion into flash in the pan believers that quickly burn out.

Manualman—

In my 45 years in Evangelical churches, my experience has been very different from yours.

In the Evangelical Congregational church I grew up in, the church has grown since I was a child, but along with new members, the same families who had elderly members when I was a little girl have remained into the third generation…decidedly not flash in the pan Christians.

I see something similar in the Evangelical Free Church I came to when I moved to my house as an adult.

New members for the various Evangelical churches that I know best— through my own experience and that of family and friends----seem to be mostly from Evangelicals who move, people raised in mainline churches, a few agnostics and atheists, a good number of former New Agers, a few Catholics, and one Ukrainian Orthodox.

 

[ltwin]

I was under the impression that the Catholic Church is on the rise in the US. The polls from 2011 indicate this:

Source:
christianpost.com/news/2011-church-membership-southern-baptists-decline-cults-growing-48984/

Much of the growth in the Catholic population is from immigration. While I’m sure the Catholic Church is making new converts, a large part of its US growth is from immigration from majority Catholic Latin America.

 

[manualman]

Manualman—

In my 45 years in Evangelical churches, my experience has been very different from yours.

Glad to have your differing data point. Life is too short to only rely on one’s own experiences. I wonder why the striking difference in demographics in our two experiences. Perhaps mine differs because it was a college fellowship group, not a conventional parish made up of families?

 

[AbideWithMe]

I wonder why the striking difference in demographics in our two experiences. Perhaps mine differs because it was a college fellowship group, not a conventional parish made up of families?

That would make sense—college students would be less settled into the larger community, most likely; they’d be less mature emotionally and mentally (not an insult, just a fact); and they’d probably be more in exploration mode, trying out different types of spirituality.

Edit: Some college students (including some Catholic and non-Catholic posters here) are already more mature than many older people, but I hope that means that they’ll get even better in time than they are already!

 

[Eilrahc]

You’ll notice in St. Nilus’ prophecy a reference to Antichrist. Now I should point out here that Nilus did not say the Antichrist would come in the 20th century, nor in the 21st century. He specifically said “when the time for the advent of the Antichrist approaches.” In other words, when it is getting close to that time, but not necessarily the actual time itself. That’s important to remember, because our Evangelical Christian friends (God love 'em) actually believe the time of the Antichrist is here, and he’ll make is presence known any day now. Of course a lot of them believe they’re going to be “raptured” as well, in a supernatural event that will snatch them out of this world so they will not have to endure the temptations of Antichrist. Now, that’s a pleasant thought, but totally unbiblical. The early Church Fathers, those Christians who lived closest to the Apostolic age, knew nothing of this “rapture” as it is commonly taught, that is allegedly supposed to spare modern day Evangelicals from the same kind of hardship endured by the early Christians under the Roman persecutions. It’s no matter though, because in a very short time Evangelicalism will no longer exist. For that matter, neither will any Protestant denomination or sect. All of the pluralism we see in Christianity today will soon be extinct.

catholicknight.blogspot.com/p/catholic-prophecy.html

 

[kbwall]

I think we will go through a period, maybe a generation, where being religious of any sort will " fall out" of fashion and people will think they don’t need God. During this time society will de-generate in many ways but eventually there will be a spring and the church will once again flourish. Perhaps driven by missionaries from Africa and Asia to the US and Europe.

Unless of course this really is the end, in which the world will continue the downward spiral until Christians are a small minority, and then Jesus return and Armageddon will begin.

 

[CopticChristian]

Glad to have your differing data point. Life is too short to only rely on one’s own experiences. I wonder why the striking difference in demographics in our two experiences. Perhaps mine differs because it was a college fellowship group, not a conventional parish made up of families?

Manual,

I could tell you of my experience of constant schism in the Protestants sects I have seen. My experience, your experience, Abide experience equate to what I see and has less to do with what is…

Fact. Protestant evangelicals and non-denonational groups are revolving doors where people come and people leave. There may be some communities that are more stable than others however the facts are that in general the Protestant population is dwindling and become fewer and fewer. The Barna group has statistics that show this. Many statistics show this.

What was experienced in one state concerning electing Romney by majority does not equate to what happened on voting night of the entire nation. Romney won Utah. Utah would have a greater than average support for Romney and if all we did was look at the Utah experience then we could conclude that Romney is popular ignoring the results…

One experience does not equate with the fact that Protestant thought is realizing its demise in history…attempting to eradicate the Catholic Church…calling it the whore of Babylon…

With people like Hagee and the ignorance of Dispensational thought to arrive at this point noted here in this thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=725994

Hagee has often made references to “the apostate church” and the “great whore,” terms that Catholics say are slurs aimed at the Roman Catholic Church. In his letter, Hagee said he now better understood that the Book of Revelation’s reference to the Catholic Church as “the apostate church” and the “great whore” are “a rhetorical device long employed in anti-Catholic literature and commentary.”

He stressed that in his use, “neither of these phrases can be synonymous with the Catholic Church.”

with the likes of Hagee conceding the opinion that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon is wrong and noting that Catholics, formerly a cult, is now referred to as

“I hope you recognize that I have repeatedly stated that my interpretation of Revelation leads me to conclude that the “apostate church” and the “great whore” appear only during the seven years of tribulation after all true believers- Catholic and Protestant – have been taken up to heaven. Therefore, neither of these phrases can be synonymous with the Catholic Church.”

true believers…

Is Protestant thought imploding?..yes…decidedly so…

Let’s just wait another 500 years for the trend to continue…

knowing history one ceases to be Protestant and history is dilineating cessation and demise and implosion…why? no authority that is agreed on…and no such thing as a Protestant church…that all agree exists…

 

[commenter]

Not only are individuals coming or going between denominations, but Protestant denominations themselves shift. Mainline churches move from liberal to mostly secular. Some Evangelical churches have moved from having strong, fixed doctrinal positions to becoming somewhat similar to where the Mainline churches were a few decades ago. (The contraception and abortion shift is a good example). The mega churches attract a lot of people; the ones I have seen seem evangelical at first, but their doctrine is no longer traditional Protestant. They de-emphasize doctrine altogether, in favor of “how can my family find peace and contentment?”. I’m not sure they would fit into the Evangelical category anymore, nor would the Baptist churches, for instance, that supported the President. Thus, I am not seeing Evangelicalism as expanding.

 

[Eilrahc]

Here are some other predictions by Catholic Knight:

A revived Catholic Church that is traditionally orthodox, reunifying with the eastern Orthodox churches, and reviving the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of the early the middle ages.

The emergence of a schismatic and heretical counter “catholic church” spearheaded by American and European liberals.

The disintegration of mainline Protestant denominations and absorption of these remnants into the heretical and schismatic counter “catholic church”, or else vice versa, depending on the size of the schismatic group coming out of the Roman Catholic Church.

The stagnation and early signs of decay in the spiritual refugee camps of Evangelical nondenominational mega-churches, causing many Evangelicals to rethink the entire Protestant Reformation.

Persecution of traditionally orthodox Christians by liberal government establishments as a last dying gasp of liberal Modernism in the western world.

The rise of Islam in Europe and Canada as a result of Liberal Modernist influences, marking the epic catastrophic failure of Liberal Modernism in the Western world.