P
Peter_J
Guest
I wouldn’t.
On the other hand, I don’t try to get non-Catholics to become Catholic. (Possibly you’ve heard this quote before: “We are not fishing in the Anglican pond.”)
- Status
On the other hand, I don’t try to get non-Catholics to become Catholic. (Possibly you’ve heard this quote before: “We are not fishing in the Anglican pond.”)
Y
yogosans14
Guest
I see both sides to it.
Colossians 1:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Protestantism teaches that all born again believers make up the Church of God. While Matthew 16:18-19 seems to present a different idea. Do I think both Catholics and Protestants are going to Heaven, yes.
Colossians 1:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Protestantism teaches that all born again believers make up the Church of God. While Matthew 16:18-19 seems to present a different idea. Do I think both Catholics and Protestants are going to Heaven, yes.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
There are two things at work here. The Body of Christ which is all baptized Christians. And then there is the Church. Which is the organization Christ founded.
Just like Christ picked the 12 and designated them to teach and preach, so too the church does today. All Christians should follow the teaching of the Bishops who are the Apostles successors…unfortunately they don’t.
Y
yogosans14
Guest
Well a lot of people are born into cults or non catholic families so of course they arent going to if they are taught as a child that the RCC is of the devil
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Jeanne1184. You stated:
My point is don’t deny the power (AND grace as you pointed out) of religion as St. Paul asserts (we should not deny this grace and power of religion). But for St. Paul to say this, it assumes there is a correct religion—one that is objectively true and protected.
(This is NOT to say necessarily that Catholic people all have the most natural virtue—but of course we cannot be saved by our mere natural virtue.)
You also said:
Jesus often chooses who the world sees as “lower” to accomplish His tasks.
Is Jesus accomplishing things through YOU and (schlubs like) ME? I think He IS accomplishing things in us and through us and so many others.
But Jesus has a Divine order (including His undiluted teachings) that He wants us to have.
Jesus seeks to give us order.
Satan seeks to give us disorder.
When Satan wants to sift the Apostles like wheat, HOW does Jesus respond?
Fortunately the Bible tells us (and you will never hear “Brother this” or “Sister that” preach on these things in their televangelism ministries).
Does Jesus give them ALL the Holy Spirit in the sense of an invisible Church or does Jesus come to the aid of the other Apostles through St. Peter?
Yes we all receive the Holy Spirit but in differing charisms and shares.
**
1st CORINTHIANS 12:27-31 ** 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
So again, does Jesus give the Apostles ALL the Holy Spirit (in the sense of an invisible Church) or does Jesus come to the aid of the other Apostles in and through St. Peter?
Let’s go to the next post and find out.
Fair enough. I meant to defend your interpretation from Scripture.
My point is don’t deny the power (AND grace as you pointed out) of religion as St. Paul asserts (we should not deny this grace and power of religion). But for St. Paul to say this, it assumes there is a correct religion—one that is objectively true and protected.
(This is NOT to say necessarily that Catholic people all have the most natural virtue—but of course we cannot be saved by our mere natural virtue.)
You also said:
But don’t you see? This is possibly WHY Jesus WOULD choose St. Peter. To show how powerful He (Jesus) is by working in and through St. Peter.
Jesus often chooses who the world sees as “lower” to accomplish His tasks.
Is Jesus accomplishing things through YOU and (schlubs like) ME? I think He IS accomplishing things in us and through us and so many others.
But Jesus has a Divine order (including His undiluted teachings) that He wants us to have.
Jesus seeks to give us order.
Satan seeks to give us disorder.
When Satan wants to sift the Apostles like wheat, HOW does Jesus respond?
Fortunately the Bible tells us (and you will never hear “Brother this” or “Sister that” preach on these things in their televangelism ministries).
Does Jesus give them ALL the Holy Spirit in the sense of an invisible Church or does Jesus come to the aid of the other Apostles through St. Peter?
Yes we all receive the Holy Spirit but in differing charisms and shares.
**
1st CORINTHIANS 12:27-31 ** 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
So again, does Jesus give the Apostles ALL the Holy Spirit (in the sense of an invisible Church) or does Jesus come to the aid of the other Apostles in and through St. Peter?
Let’s go to the next post and find out.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Sometimes the televangelist types will try to say St. Peter is “Satan” because Jesus says “get thee behind me satan” in Matthew 16. But the Hebrew word “satan” literally means “opposer”. St. Peter is not literally “Satan”.
Let’s look at what the Bible says about Satan and his plans to destroy the Church (the Kingdom of God on earth) and the Apostles. All bold and/or underline in Scripture is mine.
Also, let’s look at HOW Jesus resolves this problem.
Let’s go to just before Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Let’s go to the “Upper Room.”
The real Demon Satan wants to sift all the Apostles through his evil proverbial hands like wheat and Jesus is warning them of this!
LUKE 22:28-31 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, . . .
The “you” that is bold and underlined above, in the original Greek language, literally means “you-all.”
So Jesus is telling Simon that Satan wants to sift ALL you Apostles like wheat.
Let’s look at the above set of verses inserting “you-all” when appropriate, so we can get a better picture of the attack that Satan is making on all the Apostles here.
LUKE 22:28-31 (With “you-all” inserted for grasp of the Greek meaning) 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you-all, that he might
sift you-all like wheat, . . .
Now how does Jesus counter Satan’s attack? How does Jesus overcome this incredible Satanic attack upon the Apostles?
Fortunately the very next verse tells us how Jesus battles Satan. Let’s take a look.
Let’s see how Jesus counters Satan’s attack on all the apostles.
LUKE 22:28-32 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,
30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom,
and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you (“you-all”),
that he might sift you (“you-all”) like wheat,
32 but I have prayed for you (the “you” is singular here!)
that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again,
strengthen your brethren.
Now the “You” that Jesus uses here in verse 32 is in the singular, not the pleural!
It literally means “you Simon”!
The Greek so strongly points to Simon, and Simon alone, that the Protestant translation, the New International Version (NIV), already inserts this right in its translation to highlight the fact that Jesus is addressing Simon alone here.
LUKE 22:32 (NIV) 32 but I have prayed for you Simon that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.
Notice it is Simon that Jesus uses to “strengthen the brethren.”
Couldn’t Jesus get the job done? Of course Jesus could “get the job done”!
Jesus gets the job done.
The question is HOW does Jesus get the job done?
Does Jesus do it ALONE . . . OR . . . . does Jesus work alone AND IN PEOPLE and through people allowing a koinonia or participation IN Him?
The answer is Jesus gets the job done by working through Simon Peter.
Jesus gets the job done with Our Lord Jesus’ holy and perfect prayer.
Again the “You” that Jesus uses here is now in the singular,
not the pleural sense as it was earlier! It literally means “you Peter!”
Not that Jesus doesn’t pray for all the Apostles. He does.
But this is a special protection.
Peter’s protection here is meant to help all the other Apostles here too, or as St. Luke says, “strengthen your brethren” or as other translations have “confirm the brethren.”
Let’s look at the set of verses inserting the singular and pleural wording with a
southern vernacular so we can get a better appreciation of what is going on here!
on the next post . . .
Let’s look at what the Bible says about Satan and his plans to destroy the Church (the Kingdom of God on earth) and the Apostles. All bold and/or underline in Scripture is mine.
Also, let’s look at HOW Jesus resolves this problem.
Let’s go to just before Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Let’s go to the “Upper Room.”
The real Demon Satan wants to sift all the Apostles through his evil proverbial hands like wheat and Jesus is warning them of this!
LUKE 22:28-31 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, . . .
The “you” that is bold and underlined above, in the original Greek language, literally means “you-all.”
So Jesus is telling Simon that Satan wants to sift ALL you Apostles like wheat.
Let’s look at the above set of verses inserting “you-all” when appropriate, so we can get a better picture of the attack that Satan is making on all the Apostles here.
LUKE 22:28-31 (With “you-all” inserted for grasp of the Greek meaning) 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you-all, that he might
sift you-all like wheat, . . .
Now how does Jesus counter Satan’s attack? How does Jesus overcome this incredible Satanic attack upon the Apostles?
Fortunately the very next verse tells us how Jesus battles Satan. Let’s take a look.
Let’s see how Jesus counters Satan’s attack on all the apostles.
LUKE 22:28-32 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,
30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom,
and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you (“you-all”),
that he might sift you (“you-all”) like wheat,
32 but I have prayed for you (the “you” is singular here!)
that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again,
strengthen your brethren.
Now the “You” that Jesus uses here in verse 32 is in the singular, not the pleural!
It literally means “you Simon”!
The Greek so strongly points to Simon, and Simon alone, that the Protestant translation, the New International Version (NIV), already inserts this right in its translation to highlight the fact that Jesus is addressing Simon alone here.
LUKE 22:32 (NIV) 32 but I have prayed for you Simon that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.
Notice it is Simon that Jesus uses to “strengthen the brethren.”
Couldn’t Jesus get the job done? Of course Jesus could “get the job done”!
Jesus gets the job done.
The question is HOW does Jesus get the job done?
Does Jesus do it ALONE . . . OR . . . . does Jesus work alone AND IN PEOPLE and through people allowing a koinonia or participation IN Him?
The answer is Jesus gets the job done by working through Simon Peter.
Jesus gets the job done with Our Lord Jesus’ holy and perfect prayer.
Again the “You” that Jesus uses here is now in the singular,
not the pleural sense as it was earlier! It literally means “you Peter!”
Not that Jesus doesn’t pray for all the Apostles. He does.
But this is a special protection.
Peter’s protection here is meant to help all the other Apostles here too, or as St. Luke says, “strengthen your brethren” or as other translations have “confirm the brethren.”
Let’s look at the set of verses inserting the singular and pleural wording with a
southern vernacular so we can get a better appreciation of what is going on here!
on the next post . . .
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Let’s look at the set of verses inserting the singular and pleural wording with a
southern vernacular so we can get a better appreciation of what is going on here!
LUKE 22:28-32 (modified) 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you-all, that he might sift you-all like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you Simon that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.
Now at this point you might say, Well Peter is going to turn away.
He’s going to deny Jesus three times by a charcoal fire.
That’s right! Simon-Peter IS going to turn away!
In a certain sense he is going to be an adversary of Jesus again and Jesus not only knows it, but also points it out to Simon.
But Peter is going to “turn again” or turn back to Jesus after this fall.
As a matter of fact when Jesus tells Peter that
Peter will “turn again,” Jesus implied that Peter would turn away!
LUKE 22:32 32 but I have prayed for you Simon that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.
When Jesus starts this sentence out, notice He calls Peter by the name of Peter (Rock)? No!
Jesus calls him “Simon.” Peter is probably thinking at that point “Hey why is Jesus referring to me as “Simon”? Aren’t I “Rock” or Peter?”
LUKE 22:31 31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
And Peter knows Jesus’ statement of Jesus implies that Peter would turn away (but then “turn again”).
So Peter impetuously or hastily makes a promise that he can’t keep.
Peter promises he won’t turn away! Let’s look at the promise.
LUKE 22:32-33 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. 33 And he said to him, Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.
But now Jesus explicitly states what He earlier only implied telling them that Peter will betray Him. Jesus is now calling him “Peter” again too.
LUKE 22:32-34 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. 33 And he said to him, Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death. 34 He said, I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me.
Note:
Even though Jesus knows Peter would betray Him in advance! Even though Jesus refers to him as “Simon” when referring to his fall and “Peter” when referring to Peter’s “turn(ing) again”.
Jesus uses His own 100% pure, efficacious perfect prayer for Peter to fight Satan to not merely protect Peter, but to protect the remaining Apostles.
Recall that ALL the Apostles eventually forsook (forsaken or left) Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, not just Peter!
MATTHEW 26:56 56 But all this has taken place, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.
Does the fact that the Apostles were ALL acting as adversaries to Jesus in union with Satan here negate their authority too? No!
ALL the Apostles eventually forsook Jesus, but all eventually came back except Judas. Judas didn’t remain with Peter.
**If Peter weren’t up to the task eventually (with God’s grace) we would see Jesus prayer failing! **
Did Jesus prayer for Peter NOT protect the Apostles? Did Peter NOT “strengthen the brethren?” Did Jesus prayer fail? Was Jesus prophecy wrong? No!
This illustrates the visible tangible aspect of the Church and contrast to the Protestant concept of everyone being their own popes.
If you have a “Catholic pedigree” you are greatly blessed. I think Jesus may be beckoning you back to Him Jeanne1184. Jeanne1184 the world hates this type of stuff and the world will hate you for coming back if you decide and are called to do so. But be of good cheer.
“WHY in the world should I be of ‘good cheer’ if the world hates me as a Catholic?” You will understand WHY in due time.
Consider spending some time in front of Jesus at the local Catholic Adoration Chapel closest to you (find it here) to study, pray, and figure out what Jesus wants specifically for you.
southern vernacular so we can get a better appreciation of what is going on here!
LUKE 22:28-32 (modified) 28 You are those who have continued with me in my trials; 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, 30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you-all, that he might sift you-all like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you Simon that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.
Now at this point you might say, Well Peter is going to turn away.
He’s going to deny Jesus three times by a charcoal fire.
That’s right! Simon-Peter IS going to turn away!
In a certain sense he is going to be an adversary of Jesus again and Jesus not only knows it, but also points it out to Simon.
But Peter is going to “turn again” or turn back to Jesus after this fall.
As a matter of fact when Jesus tells Peter that
Peter will “turn again,” Jesus implied that Peter would turn away!
LUKE 22:32 32 but I have prayed for you Simon that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.
When Jesus starts this sentence out, notice He calls Peter by the name of Peter (Rock)? No!
Jesus calls him “Simon.” Peter is probably thinking at that point “Hey why is Jesus referring to me as “Simon”? Aren’t I “Rock” or Peter?”
LUKE 22:31 31 Simon, Simon, behold Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
And Peter knows Jesus’ statement of Jesus implies that Peter would turn away (but then “turn again”).
So Peter impetuously or hastily makes a promise that he can’t keep.
Peter promises he won’t turn away! Let’s look at the promise.
LUKE 22:32-33 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. 33 And he said to him, Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.
But now Jesus explicitly states what He earlier only implied telling them that Peter will betray Him. Jesus is now calling him “Peter” again too.
LUKE 22:32-34 32 but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren. 33 And he said to him, Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death. 34 He said, I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me.
Note:
- “Simon” used by Jesus when referring to Simon Peter’s fall
- “Peter” used by Jesus when referring to Simon Peter in the context of repenting after this fall (or “when you have turned again”)
Even though Jesus knows Peter would betray Him in advance! Even though Jesus refers to him as “Simon” when referring to his fall and “Peter” when referring to Peter’s “turn(ing) again”.
Jesus uses His own 100% pure, efficacious perfect prayer for Peter to fight Satan to not merely protect Peter, but to protect the remaining Apostles.
Recall that ALL the Apostles eventually forsook (forsaken or left) Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, not just Peter!
MATTHEW 26:56 56 But all this has taken place, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples forsook him and fled.
Does the fact that the Apostles were ALL acting as adversaries to Jesus in union with Satan here negate their authority too? No!
ALL the Apostles eventually forsook Jesus, but all eventually came back except Judas. Judas didn’t remain with Peter.
**If Peter weren’t up to the task eventually (with God’s grace) we would see Jesus prayer failing! **
Did Jesus prayer for Peter NOT protect the Apostles? Did Peter NOT “strengthen the brethren?” Did Jesus prayer fail? Was Jesus prophecy wrong? No!
This illustrates the visible tangible aspect of the Church and contrast to the Protestant concept of everyone being their own popes.
If you have a “Catholic pedigree” you are greatly blessed. I think Jesus may be beckoning you back to Him Jeanne1184. Jeanne1184 the world hates this type of stuff and the world will hate you for coming back if you decide and are called to do so. But be of good cheer.
“WHY in the world should I be of ‘good cheer’ if the world hates me as a Catholic?” You will understand WHY in due time.
Consider spending some time in front of Jesus at the local Catholic Adoration Chapel closest to you (find it here) to study, pray, and figure out what Jesus wants specifically for you.
P
peace2u2
Guest
There are 2 common opposite errors when describing “the Church” - that is to reduce the Church to what is visible in human history and to reduce the church to an invisible community of souls - The Church is both visible and invisible just as we are - We have a visible, physical body and we have an invisible (spirit) our soul and the Church that Jesus established is both as well.
I always say that when Protestants reduce the Church to just the invisible, they are collaborating with the Atheist who desire to remove God from every nook and cranny in society so Protestants by reducing the visible Church that Jesus established to all things invisible you have washed you hands with the work of the devil.
Eph. 2:19b and 1 Tim 3:15b are commonly used to support the “invisible” Church.
T
TSElya
Guest
The Church is the community of believers no matter where they are physically located. Jesus and the Apostles met in the Upper Room, but they were sent out to make disciples of all nations even where there weren’t physical churches (christian church buildings weren’t built for awhile after Christ’s resurrection). They met mostly in homes. Brothers and sisters in Christ are all over the world; together we make the church.
D
dronald
Guest
I love reading explanations like this because all I can think of is:
1 corin 1: 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
A
adf417
Guest
Believers in what?
Infant baptism yes or no?
Effects of baptism?
Eucharist symbolic or real?
Women’s ordination or not?
T
TSElya
Guest
There are Catholics around the world who have no church building. I was referring to all those who believe Jesus Christ is God incarnate and Lord and Savior around the world who only have an Upper Room to gather and not a cathedral.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
I don’t think anyone on here was talking about a building.
When we speak if the visible church it is the structure and leadership not buildings.
The visible church in the NT was the Apostles and all their followers as opposed to those like the Gnostics who believed in Jesus but perverted the gospel.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Which is then laid out in Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
A
Adamski
Guest
Yes. But there church according to acts still had one central authority under Peter and the apostles
D
dronald
Guest
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Hi Dronald. What then did Paul mean when someone said " I follow Christ"? Don’t we all follow Christ? Even the Pope does.
MJ
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
D
dronald
Guest
We sure do!
The Orthodox would disagree with you… I believe they like to trace back to Paul, although I’m sure it’s more complicated than that. You trace to Peter… Again, complications.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Great. But taking scripture verses and looking for that “Aha!” moment doesn’t work really that well for unity and Love of the Spirit, imo.
MJ
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