J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Like I said, it was an appropriate firm of punishment for the time.
Just 100 years ago people were hanged for stealing a horse in this country. You really need to understand the times.
- Status
Just 100 years ago people were hanged for stealing a horse in this country. You really need to understand the times.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Thank you!
I was going to say it is the Magesterium of the church in accord with the Bishop of Rime who has doctrinal decision making authority , with the ultimate authority being the Bishop of Rome of whom his office and it’s delegation is protected by the Holy Spirit.
Orthodox can participate in a limited way in that process, for example, in attending and participating in an ecumenical council.
Even a Roman Bishop does not hold authority to teach against the established doctrine of the Roman Church.
If he does he will be corrected.
J
Jeanne1184
Guest
Hi, Cathoholic ~ Glad you’re feeling up to dropping a line or two.
We already agree that Peter’s trials were of benefit to us (and him), so I’m not quite sure why you spelled it out - unless I missed a key idea within the breakdown that added a new angle.
That said, here’s a few other oddities about Peter that I haven’t been able to reconcile to my satisfaction; it’s almost like he’s mysterious on purpose. Others have probably figured all this out and I just haven’t come across the articles yet.
What’s up with quoting from Joel in Acts 2:16 (while he’s in Judaea)?
Joel says, “beat plowshares into swords…” (Isa. and Mic. say the opposite.)
Joel talks about his silver and gold being taken. In Acts 3:6, Peter says, “Silver and gold have I none…”
The moon turning to blood in Acts 2 and Joel, plus Rev. 6:12, 6th seal. (Of course, that one is other places, too.)
3,000 people are saved at the same speech/occasion.
Peter is like playing a game of ‘connect the dots’ - except I can’t get a clear picture. The lion roars in Joel, but that doesn’t help.
Back to the visible and invisible…came across a really interesting connection between the physical temples and the spiritual human temple that I had no idea were connected.
biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/1-peter-2-5.html
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Hello Jeanne1184. Glad to see you are back in the discussion as well.
ACTS 2:16-20 16 but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and manifest day.
CCC 715 The prophetic texts that directly concern the sending of the Holy Spirit are oracles by which God speaks to the heart of his people in the language of the promise, with the accents of "love and fidelity."85 St. Peter will proclaim their fulfillment on the morning of Pentecost.86 According to these promises, at the “end time” the Lord’s Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gather and reconcile the scattered and divided peoples; he will transform the first creation, and God will dwell there with men in peace.
Recall these ARE the “last days”. Ever since Jesus came into the world.
“The “last days” are not what “Rapturists” might think (OK count down only 60 days or whatever to the end of the world).
The “last days" refer to the New Convent era.
The pouring out of the Holy Spirit means a relationship with God in peace for all who desire such (whereas before Christ’s work, this would have not been possible).
The BEGINNING of the ordinary means for this is being “born again” or being “born of water and spirit” (Baptism). This relationship is right NOW but it is even fuller at the end of time (when EVERYBODY gets their bodies back whether they end up in Heaven or they choose and want to go to Eternal Condemnation).
There are LAYERS of meaning to Acts 2:16-20.
In one sense it refers to the “coming of the Lord” upon our spiritual (and in some cases ethnic) ancestors, the Jews. (“St. Peter will proclaim their fulfillment on the morning of Pentecost” as per CCC 715 above).
The “coming of the Lord” means Covenant Judgment. You can do a word search in the Old Testament and see this for yourself.
This was all fulfilled at the destruction of the Temple (etc.). Even though these cosmic signs may be being referred to figuratively, Josephus even describes many of them as occurring explicitly before the destruction of the Old Covenant Temple!
In another layer (or in another sense) it refers to Covenant Judgment when WE die. This is a more microcosmic sense.
And Eschatologically, it refers to the End of the world (Covenant Judgment upon members of the Church–see CCC 675-677). ( . . . “at the “end time” the Lord’s Spirit will renew the hearts of men. . .” again as per CCC 715 above)
These “layers of meaning” are laid out for us from the Church historically and yet again reaffirmed recently historically in the CCC (see CCC 115 through 119 to see how the Church expects us to know how “layers” of meaning in Scripture passages are present and can still be in a sense “mined for gold”).
The “living stones” concerns us all being built into the New Temple—Jesus Christ and His body (explicitly called “The Church” five different times within Scripture). You can look up the verses for yourself as I don’t want this post to get too long.
In one sense Jesus is the foundation. In another sense St. Peter is the foundation. In another sense the Apostles and prophets are the foundation. Then we as living stones get built into (incorporated into) the New Temple, Jesus Christ. And just to make sure you know it, the stone Temple building has NEVER been rebuilt.
The Church = The Body of Christ (in a corporate sense).
That’s WHY Jesus said “tear down this Temple and I will rebuild it in three days”.
Yes, Jesus was talking about His Resurrected body personally but in another sense, Jesus was talking about the Church too.
This all goes right back to the whole purpose of this thread (so I’m glad you asked) as this has to do with a real actual PHYSICAL Church on earth.
The Scriptures don’t define the Church as the “corpse of Christ” (which would be a body with no soul), . . . .
. . . . nor does Scripture describe the Church as only the “soul of Christ (which would suggest an invisibility to His Church),
. . . . but rather the BODY of Christ (which has an invisible aspect and a united real PHYSICAL aspect too).
Dr. Scott Hahn discusses this concept in much more detail. He has a lot of stuff on YouTube and it is very good. He has even more audios at St. Joseph Communications. And he gives away many audios on his website here.
Because other people are reading this and may find benefit if an idea is expounded upon (When I come across someone who has done some “homework” here in an area that I am seeking to go deeper I am always appreciative . . . even if I don’t post public “Thank Yous” near enough).
ACTS 2:16-20 16 but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. 19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20 the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and manifest day.
CCC 715 The prophetic texts that directly concern the sending of the Holy Spirit are oracles by which God speaks to the heart of his people in the language of the promise, with the accents of "love and fidelity."85 St. Peter will proclaim their fulfillment on the morning of Pentecost.86 According to these promises, at the “end time” the Lord’s Spirit will renew the hearts of men, engraving a new law in them. He will gather and reconcile the scattered and divided peoples; he will transform the first creation, and God will dwell there with men in peace.
Recall these ARE the “last days”. Ever since Jesus came into the world.
“The “last days” are not what “Rapturists” might think (OK count down only 60 days or whatever to the end of the world).
The “last days" refer to the New Convent era.
The pouring out of the Holy Spirit means a relationship with God in peace for all who desire such (whereas before Christ’s work, this would have not been possible).
The BEGINNING of the ordinary means for this is being “born again” or being “born of water and spirit” (Baptism). This relationship is right NOW but it is even fuller at the end of time (when EVERYBODY gets their bodies back whether they end up in Heaven or they choose and want to go to Eternal Condemnation).
There are LAYERS of meaning to Acts 2:16-20.
In one sense it refers to the “coming of the Lord” upon our spiritual (and in some cases ethnic) ancestors, the Jews. (“St. Peter will proclaim their fulfillment on the morning of Pentecost” as per CCC 715 above).
The “coming of the Lord” means Covenant Judgment. You can do a word search in the Old Testament and see this for yourself.
This was all fulfilled at the destruction of the Temple (etc.). Even though these cosmic signs may be being referred to figuratively, Josephus even describes many of them as occurring explicitly before the destruction of the Old Covenant Temple!
In another layer (or in another sense) it refers to Covenant Judgment when WE die. This is a more microcosmic sense.
And Eschatologically, it refers to the End of the world (Covenant Judgment upon members of the Church–see CCC 675-677). ( . . . “at the “end time” the Lord’s Spirit will renew the hearts of men. . .” again as per CCC 715 above)
These “layers of meaning” are laid out for us from the Church historically and yet again reaffirmed recently historically in the CCC (see CCC 115 through 119 to see how the Church expects us to know how “layers” of meaning in Scripture passages are present and can still be in a sense “mined for gold”).
The “living stones” concerns us all being built into the New Temple—Jesus Christ and His body (explicitly called “The Church” five different times within Scripture). You can look up the verses for yourself as I don’t want this post to get too long.
In one sense Jesus is the foundation. In another sense St. Peter is the foundation. In another sense the Apostles and prophets are the foundation. Then we as living stones get built into (incorporated into) the New Temple, Jesus Christ. And just to make sure you know it, the stone Temple building has NEVER been rebuilt.
The Church = The Body of Christ (in a corporate sense).
That’s WHY Jesus said “tear down this Temple and I will rebuild it in three days”.
Yes, Jesus was talking about His Resurrected body personally but in another sense, Jesus was talking about the Church too.
This all goes right back to the whole purpose of this thread (so I’m glad you asked) as this has to do with a real actual PHYSICAL Church on earth.
The Scriptures don’t define the Church as the “corpse of Christ” (which would be a body with no soul), . . . .
. . . . nor does Scripture describe the Church as only the “soul of Christ (which would suggest an invisibility to His Church),
. . . . but rather the BODY of Christ (which has an invisible aspect and a united real PHYSICAL aspect too).
Dr. Scott Hahn discusses this concept in much more detail. He has a lot of stuff on YouTube and it is very good. He has even more audios at St. Joseph Communications. And he gives away many audios on his website here.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Recall in the book of Exodus and the Golden Calf episode which occurred in proximity to Pentecost 3000 were slain that day.
In the New Testament 3000 were saved on Pentecost.
The Holy Spirit in one layer is giving us history.
The Holy Spirit in another layer is informing us of the undoing of the falling of the Israelite nation.
And all of this occurs not by Spirit ONLY but by a real PHYSICAL Church that can preach with God-given authority and this Baptism WILL result in the Holy Spirit upon and within them.
There is a Spiritual aspect and a REAL PHYSICAL aspect to all of this.
And St. Peter is the one preaching this Pentecost admonition.
Here is a sample from Dave Armstrong’s website concerning St. Peter. Armstrong has got to be one of the top Catholic teachers out there and I have learned a lot from this man. Never met him but thank you Mr. Armstrong. You are making a difference.
To see all “50 New Testament Proofs for Petrine Primacy and the Papacy” check out his website here.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
dronald.
The thread topic concerns the Church and if it is a visible physical (and Spiritual) Church or is it just a spiritual entity ALONE.
Myself and other people pointed you to important verses such as how to deal with a brother who is in error (in Matthew 18). See post 59 for some of the details.
Jesus appoints men who have God-given authority to correct. And JESUS states to them: “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven”.
Your answer to this hasn’t been to show how these verses highlights the various flavors of Protestantism (I don’t know how they possibly could).
Your answer to all of this is to just go after people in the Catholic Church.
But I am not asking you to accept Catholicism on this thread OK?
As Fr. Pacwa has said: “I am in marketing not management”.
I AM asking you to see the principles involved IN SCRIPTURE concerning a real visible PHYSICAL Church that has tremendous God-given authority. And tell us WHERE in Protestantism this exists. I don’t think it exists ANYWHERE within Protestantism. And the more I read your posts and other Protestants, I don’t think THEY think it exists anywhere within Protestantism either.
A real visible PHYSICAL Church that has tremendous God-given authority. Such authority, that God Himself will stand by these decisions (which means either God will affirm error [not a chance] or God will protect these guys from error [yep]).
When I ask you about this authority concept and you essentially reply with . . . .
. . . . “bad Catholics, bad Catholics, bad Catholics . . ."
But you are NOT addressing the issue with replies such as these dronald.
This is called the fallacy of equivocation (sometimes loosely called “a bait and switch”) and I am not going to abide by it and nor should you.
I am saying this stuff doesn’t fit into the Protestant religious worldview. It fits PERFECTLY with the Catholic religious worldview.
HEBREWS 13:17 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.
**LUKE 10:1, 16-17a ** 1 After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. . . . 16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” 17 The seventy returned with joy, . . .
Protestantism doesn’t work dronald.
NOT MATTHEW 18:15-18 (Phantom Verses) 17 If he refuses to listen to them, open your Bible and really drive home your interpretive opinion. And if he refuses to listen even to YOU and your private interpretation, or your preachers’, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, WHATEVER you bind on earth EVEN if it is error shall be bound in heaven. But if this guy shows you the verses that he thinks are in favor of his opinion too, that’s the best you guys can do and you really can’t get to truth until you are in Heaven. But be of joyful emotions and perceived “unity” even in interpretive error.
Appealing to your emotions about bad Catholics or potential abuses in authority is not going to answer how these verses do NOT fit into a Protestant paradigm.
You keep dodging the issue of authority on earth that is ratified in Heaven. You keep focusing against individual people in the Catholic Church in your posts.
I was (reviewing for purposes of refutation for someone else’s behalf) recently listening to a famous Protestant preacher “Brother XXXXXXXX” (I’m not going to mention his name here) trying to hustle up money from his listeners and viewers while seemingly continually telling them they’d be “blessed by God” if they sent HIM their money right now!!!
All that I could think of was PROTESTANT INDULGENCES!
The thread topic concerns the Church and if it is a visible physical (and Spiritual) Church or is it just a spiritual entity ALONE.
Myself and other people pointed you to important verses such as how to deal with a brother who is in error (in Matthew 18). See post 59 for some of the details.
Jesus appoints men who have God-given authority to correct. And JESUS states to them: “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven”.
Your answer to this hasn’t been to show how these verses highlights the various flavors of Protestantism (I don’t know how they possibly could).
Your answer to all of this is to just go after people in the Catholic Church.
But I am not asking you to accept Catholicism on this thread OK?
As Fr. Pacwa has said: “I am in marketing not management”.
I AM asking you to see the principles involved IN SCRIPTURE concerning a real visible PHYSICAL Church that has tremendous God-given authority. And tell us WHERE in Protestantism this exists. I don’t think it exists ANYWHERE within Protestantism. And the more I read your posts and other Protestants, I don’t think THEY think it exists anywhere within Protestantism either.
A real visible PHYSICAL Church that has tremendous God-given authority. Such authority, that God Himself will stand by these decisions (which means either God will affirm error [not a chance] or God will protect these guys from error [yep]).
When I ask you about this authority concept and you essentially reply with . . . .
. . . . “bad Catholics, bad Catholics, bad Catholics . . ."
But you are NOT addressing the issue with replies such as these dronald.
This is called the fallacy of equivocation (sometimes loosely called “a bait and switch”) and I am not going to abide by it and nor should you.
I am saying this stuff doesn’t fit into the Protestant religious worldview. It fits PERFECTLY with the Catholic religious worldview.
HEBREWS 13:17 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.
**LUKE 10:1, 16-17a ** 1 After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. . . . 16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” 17 The seventy returned with joy, . . .
Protestantism doesn’t work dronald.
NOT MATTHEW 18:15-18 (Phantom Verses) 17 If he refuses to listen to them, open your Bible and really drive home your interpretive opinion. And if he refuses to listen even to YOU and your private interpretation, or your preachers’, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly, I say to you, WHATEVER you bind on earth EVEN if it is error shall be bound in heaven. But if this guy shows you the verses that he thinks are in favor of his opinion too, that’s the best you guys can do and you really can’t get to truth until you are in Heaven. But be of joyful emotions and perceived “unity” even in interpretive error.
Appealing to your emotions about bad Catholics or potential abuses in authority is not going to answer how these verses do NOT fit into a Protestant paradigm.
You keep dodging the issue of authority on earth that is ratified in Heaven. You keep focusing against individual people in the Catholic Church in your posts.
The thread has to do with “The Protestant invisible church” and I am saying that Protestant methodology cannot conform to Scripture.
I had a laugh that you mentioned the indulgence issue. Sadly I admit there is some truth to what you say concerning Indulgence abuses (there were ABUSES but these abuses were never the official Church teachings). But Indulgence abuses are another example of “bad Catholics” and not official Church teaching. The real “scoop” on indulgences can be found here in MP3 or here in CDs if you want to hear a Catholic man faithfully teach on this subject in depth.
I was (reviewing for purposes of refutation for someone else’s behalf) recently listening to a famous Protestant preacher “Brother XXXXXXXX” (I’m not going to mention his name here) trying to hustle up money from his listeners and viewers while seemingly continually telling them they’d be “blessed by God” if they sent HIM their money right now!!!
All that I could think of was PROTESTANT INDULGENCES!
N
Novocastrian
Guest
Sounds awfully like the dictatorship of relativism there! Are you sure you want to call it appropriate?
D
dronald
Guest
Any Pope who could agree that death of a human being by fire was in line with Christ’s teachings is as mad as any Pope saying it now. You cannot burn a human being alive for separate views. I read your article and it didn’t source anything, it just tried to convince me that the Church was blameless and it’s all the secular authorities fault.
As I said, if a Pope states “burning heretics is not against the will of the Spirit.” he is then saying that burning heretics is God’s will. According to the Church at that time I happen to be a heretic and am deserving to be burned. I can’t say all Priests would agree, but that’s what the head of it would say.
F
FathersKnowBest
Guest
Sorry to butt in, but you may REALLY enjoy What Jesus Really Said about the End of the World by David Currie. He covers much of this stuff, and does an excellent job of it.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
No that’s not true.
According to the church at the time you were to be challenged theologically and given the opportunity to understand and repent.
If you did not you weren’t necessarily executed or even imprisoned. You often were given “stayed sentences”
The people executed by the civil authorities were the ones who spread dissent and essentially committed treason against the civil authority.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Well it is only relative to societies structures, prisons, and capabilities. It is not morally relative.
There were a lot of heretics in Sodom and Gamorra. What did God do?
I would say God has made it clear capital punishment is an option in certain circumstances.
I hope some Catholics here will keep that in mind when they choose to lampoon Luther of his later in life comments about the Jews.
Jon
D
dronald
Guest
Is that the story in Luke 9:53-56?
I’m on my phone, so I can’t do my mass quotes as usual, but Leo X said burning heretics is not against the will of the Spirit. If I disagreed with him 500 years ago, there was a solid chance I was burned at a stake.
There is no such thing as “a time and place where it was okay.” it was either always okay, or never okay. Jesus (and the disciples) never advocated burning anyone to death for disagreement and Jesus still wouldn’t; today, 500 yrs ago, 1000 years ago or when He walked among us.
I like to think of Jesus as a forgive, wipe the dust off your feet, pray and continue on kind of guy when people disagreed.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
I see no evidence of Jesus condemning the death penalty in civil society during his time on earth.
Like I said, if you hold that view of God how do you reconcile the Old Testament? From Noah to Sodom, to Jericho, and on and on.
D
dronald
Guest
The stoning of adulterers, the absence of foods, the strict no working on Saturday policy… I’m not sure; how do you reconcile such things?
Odd we don’t kill people for picking up sticks on a Saturday or stoning a woman caught in adultery or burning cities and people for rejecting truth anymore. Perhaps we don’t live by the OT?
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
No we don’t live by the Old Testament law. Our times have changed our society, the society and means have changed.
The morality remains.
If it was moral for God to command it then, then it is now, he has just shown us a better way.
God does not change nor does the morality of his commands.
It is gracious and merciful to withhold the death penalty when there is just cause but not immoral to utilize it justly.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Fatherknowsbest:
I also read Curries’ Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind and Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic (and bought many copies of this as give-aways).
Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic does a great job of implicitly showing the need for a visible physical Church too incidentally.
I’m reading it right now and you are right I AM enjoying it.
I also read Curries’ Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind and Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic (and bought many copies of this as give-aways).
Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic does a great job of implicitly showing the need for a visible physical Church too incidentally.
D
dronald
Guest
So this is why I say there is need for different Churches because not everyone agrees in burning others alive for differing opinions. When we speak of cities being destroyed you point to Sodom, I point to Jesus’s words. So what do we do when an entire Church is on a heretic burning rampage? We get away from that Church. If heretics were being burned now, then people would leave it and I wouldn’t blame them.
Ask any Evangelical Church if they should burn heretics alive and they would say no. Yet you’re forced to believe it can be justified because your Church has done so. It’s an unfortunate predicament and it justifies separation.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
“Fatherknowsbest”?
Sorry about that “FathersKnowBest”. Just picked that up on the proverbial radar and too late to edit.
Sorry about that “FathersKnowBest”. Just picked that up on the proverbial radar and too late to edit.
- Status