The Protestant Reformers View Of Mary

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How in the world did you come up with this one? They lived as brother and sister. Why did they marry in the first place? Also give me the numberous of reasons.
Patristic Sources from the Early Church Fathers affirmed that Mary only have one Son. It is also based on both Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

PATRISTICS:

“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.’ He hath here used the word till,’ not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till’? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.’ And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,’ not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,’ it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word “till,” to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

“Thus, what it was necessary for thee to learn of Him, this He Himself hath said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for thee to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, For neither did His brethren believe in Him.’ John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

“But those who by virginity have desisted from this process have drawn within themselves the boundary line of death, and by their own deed have checked his advance; they have made themselves, in fact, a frontier between life and death, and a barrier too, which thwarts him. If, then, death cannot pass beyond virginity, but finds his power checked and shattered there, it is demonstrated that virginity is a stronger thing than death; and that body is rightly named undying which does not lend its service to a dying world, nor brook to become the instrument of a succession of dying creatures. In such a body the long unbroken career of decay and death, which has intervened between the first man and the lives of virginity which have been led, is interrupted. It could not be indeed that death should cease working as long as the human race by marriage was working too; he walked the path of life with all preceding generations; he started with every new-born child and accompanied it to the end: but he found in virginity a barrier, to pass which was an impossible feat.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 13 (A.D. 371).

“[T]he Son of God…was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit…” Epiphanius, Well Anchored Man, 120 (A.D. 374).

“The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin” Basil, Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 (ante A.D. 379).

“But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord’s brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin.” Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Against Helvedius, 21 (A.D. 383).
 
You’re the one with the belief. You own up to it.
I used the word encounter as opposed to a relationship. I have no sexual connotations with that. A spouse is a relationship. The Holy Spirit’s overshadowing was an encounter and not a relationship. The word spouse denotes a relationship. I do not believe in using any sexual imagery or words when it comes to describing what happened to Mary. I simply do not go that route. Then you, with your sick mind, and rest assured, it is sick, spewed this venom
An encounter?..or, encouter as you put it? God used Mary, then? Had a spiritual one-night stand with Her? Used her and then never called again? That doesn’t sound like a God of love.
Used? Asbolutely not.
One night stand? Disgusting. I wonder what kind of unregenerate heart could come up with that?
Used her and never called? Gross. I hope you do not work around children. You have a sick mind.
You disgust me adstrinity. Your post disgusts me. Its beyond the bounds. You have deep problems and this sexual language should get you banned.
 
In the Council of Ephesus 430 AD, the Church affirm Mary as the Theotokos, or Mother of God. The Council of Ephesus was more about Jesus than Mary since it deals with the Person of Jesus Christ himself. The Council affirms that Jesus is both God and Man. Since Mary is the Mother of Jesus, she is therefore the Mother of God, the Son (Incarnate), Jesus Christ. Mother of God does not mean that she is Mother of the God, the Father, nor the Mother of God, the Holy Spirit.

The Council states, “If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, ‘The Word was made flesh’: let him be anathema.” Council of Ephesus, Anathemas Against Nestorius, I (A.D. 430).
I’m trying to find a direct answer to my direct question. Sorry I can’t find it. Could you spell it out simply for me?
[/quote]
 
SCRIPTURE and COMMENTARY:

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.

John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers.

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.
 
Then pray and mediate on these mysteries. We are during the season of Lent, (though I am not sure if your faith practice Lent). Lent of course involve prayer, abstinence, fasting, and almsgiving. I would pray to the Holy Spirit too. Prayer is just as important as reading the Bible. In fact is is very important. Before Jesus started his ministry, he prayed.

As a Catholic, I have no issue with Catholic teachings on faith and morals. I try everyday to do God’s will; To love him, serve him, and ultimately be with him in heaven after I die.

I’ll pray for you during my Liturgy of the Hours… I just finished my Night Prayer… so tomorrow I’ll offer it during the intecessionary prayer.
I will never limit God but I have done that. But your kind words are appreciated. Others could learn from people like you.
 

Let’s see if we can look from Mary’s perspective for a bit. Okay?​

Let’s role play: if you were Mary, which would be worse? And why?​

Situation #1

Mary is not perpetually a virgin; not without sin; not the mother of God but the mother of Jesus’ human body, not immaculately conceived. How would you feel if a group of people believed about you as the CC people do?​

Situation #2
Mary is as the CC teaches and non-catholic Christians believe as we do, that God used a wonderful young woman to bear His Son; she was faithful; she was obedient, but did n’t believe as the CC teaches.​

Is it more difficult to have someone believe more of you than is real or less?
Either answer is non-Catholic and your anti-Catholic sentiments are showing…
 
I’m trying to find a direct answer to my direct question. Sorry I can’t find it. Could you spell it out simply for me?
Let me keep this simple, there is no “what if situation.” The truth is what it is. The doctrines of Mary (4 of them) are part of Divine Revelation (God’s Revealed Truth as professed by his Bride, the Church). To deny any core Marian doctrines would be to heresy.

For instance, to deny that Mary is the Mother of God, would imply that Jesus is not God but only human. Jesus would be view as a “regular Jewish man” who live 2,000 yrs ago. Jesus isn’t no ordinary Jew. He is the Word of God made flesh. The image of the invisible God.
 
Either answer is non-Catholic and your anti-Catholic sentiments are showing…
The Holy Family isn’t normal. They have God living amongst them. They also were faithful Jews who were obedient to the Mosaic Law. The only difference is that Mary and Joseph had Jesus Christ, the Word God incarnate himself.
 
Point four is the breakdown. Mary has a spouse, Joseph. You cannot have a figurative spouse and a literal spouse. Its just meaningless semantics. There is no relationship component. I thought it was a Catholic thing because when I looked for it attached to the Orthodox, I got nada.🤷
I DO find it objectionable because it is not accurate or have any biblical basis, no matter what Mr. Armstrong states. I actually find it VERY objectionable but I am trying to be respectful to people who say this.:o
All Christians are apart of the Body of the Christ. The Body of Christ is Jesus’ Bride. In essence, all Christians are spouses of the the Bridegroom yet some Christians have spouses as well but there’s no polygamy or cheating involved–each relationship strengthens the other.

Mary, by being the first Christian, has a unique relationship with God due to raising and giving birth to His Son. She has a relationship with Joseph and for now let’s leave out the perpetual virginity part. Joseph chooses to stay with Mary after finding out about her pregnancy and being an adoptive father, is responsible for his son whom is God Himself. Their situation is unique to say the least.

Christians do have a spiritual spouse, Jesus, but I don’t think Christians couples would say that God is an impediment to their marriage. He loved us before we loved Him. What makes Mary’s situation unique is that God chose His mother and created Her and she in turn loved Him and never sinned. Given that she had to deal with His trials and suffering, one can imagine that she needed the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit to overcome her sufferings as well. While Mary’s situation is unique, each Christian has a spousal relationship with God Himself.
 
I will never limit God but I have done that. But your kind words are appreciated. Others could learn from people like you.
You are welcome. Christian charity is one of the most basic Christian virtues. I have to be off now. It is late here in Iraq.
 
Patristic Sources from the Early Church Fathers affirmed that Mary only have one Son. It is also based on both Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

PATRISTICS:

“Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed.” Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362).

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son.’ He hath here used the word till,’ not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform thee that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, hath he used the word, till’? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up.’ And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture saith, From age until age Thou art,’ not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away,’ it doth not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word “till,” to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make the inference.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

“Thus, what it was necessary for thee to learn of Him, this He Himself hath said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for thee to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? How then, one may say, are James and the others called His brethren? In the same kind of way as Joseph himself was supposed to be husband of Mary. For many were the veils provided, that the birth, being such as it was, might be for a time screened. Wherefore even John so called them, saying, For neither did His brethren believe in Him.’ John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, V:5 (A.D. 370).

“But those who by virginity have desisted from this process have drawn within themselves the boundary line of death, and by their own deed have checked his advance; they have made themselves, in fact, a frontier between life and death, and a barrier too, which thwarts him. If, then, death cannot pass beyond virginity, but finds his power checked and shattered there, it is demonstrated that virginity is a stronger thing than death; and that body is rightly named undying which does not lend its service to a dying world, nor brook to become the instrument of a succession of dying creatures. In such a body the long unbroken career of decay and death, which has intervened between the first man and the lives of virginity which have been led, is interrupted. It could not be indeed that death should cease working as long as the human race by marriage was working too; he walked the path of life with all preceding generations; he started with every new-born child and accompanied it to the end: but he found in virginity a barrier, to pass which was an impossible feat.” Gregory of Nyssa, On Virginity, 13 (A.D. 371).

“[T]he Son of God…was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit…” Epiphanius, Well Anchored Man, 120 (A.D. 374).

“The friends of Christ do not tolerate hearing that the Mother of God ever ceased to be a virgin” Basil, Homily In Sanctum Christi generationem, 5 (ante A.D. 379).

“But as we do not deny what is written, so we do reject what is not written. We believe that God was born of the Virgin, because we read it. That Mary was married after she brought forth, we do not believe, because we do not read it. Nor do we say this to condemn marriage, for virginity itself is the fruit of marriage; but because when we are dealing with saints we must not judge rashly. If we adopt possibility as the standard of judgment, we might maintain that Joseph had several wives because Abraham had, and so had Jacob, and that the Lord’s brethren were the issue of those wives, an invention which some hold with a rashness which springs from audacity not from piety. You say that Mary did not continue a virgin: I claim still more, that Joseph himself on account of Mary was a virgin, so that from a virgin wedlock a virgin son was born. For if as a holy man he does not come under the imputation of fornication, and it is nowhere written that he had another wife, but was the guardian of Mary whom he was supposed to have to wife rather than her husband, the conclusion is that he who was thought worthy to be called father of the Lord, remained a virgin.” Jerome, The Perpetual Virginity of Mary Against Helvedius, 21 (A.D. 383).
This is just speculation on Mary by some that want us to believe they are correct. I don’t find in Scritpure that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born.
Matthew 1:25, “she remained a virgin “until” her son was born.”
Luke 2:7, “She gave birth to her “first child,” a son.”
 
SCRIPTURE and COMMENTARY:

Exodus 13:2,12 - Jesus is sometimes referred to as the “first-born” son of Mary. But “first-born” is a common Jewish expression meaning the first child to open the womb. It has nothing to do the mother having future children. What does ‘Only Begotten’ mean? Wouldn’t you say that that’s much clearer? Jesus is God’s Only Begotten. No confussion there.

Exodus 34:20 - under the Mosaic law, the “first-born” son had to be sanctified. “First-born” status does not require a “second” born.

Ezek. 44:2 - Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. Actually, if I remember correctly, it’s a prophecy about a real gate. Jesus will be the next to enter the gate in the future.

Mark 6:3 - Jesus was always referred to as “the” son of Mary, not “a” son of Mary. Also “brothers” could have theoretically been Joseph’s children from a former marriage that was dissolved by death. However, it is most likely, perhaps most certainly, that Joseph was a virgin, just as were Jesus and Mary. As such, they embodied the true Holy Family, fully consecrated to God.

Luke 1:31,34 - the angel tells Mary that you “will” conceive (using the future tense). Mary responds by saying, “How shall this be?” Mary’s response demonstrates that she had taken a vow of lifelong virginity by having no intention to have relations with a man. If Mary did not take such a vow of lifelong virginity, her question would make no sense at all (for we can assume she knew how a child is conceived). She was a consecrated Temple virgin as was an acceptable custom of the times.

Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings. His siblings weren’t the point. His brothers and sisters were mentioned in other verses wiping out your point.
John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers. Have you read about Reuben’s younger brothers in context to your point?

John 19:26-27 - it would have been unthinkable for Jesus to commit the care of his mother to a friend if he had brothers.

John 19:25 - the following verses prove that James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins and not his brothers: Mary the wife of Clopas is the sister of the Virgin Mary.

Matt. 27:61, 28:1 - Matthew even refers to Mary the wife of Clopas as “the other Mary.”

Matt. 27:56; Mark 15:47 - Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph.

Mark 6:3 - James and Joseph are called the “brothers” of Jesus. So James and Joseph are Jesus’ cousins.

Matt. 10:3 - James is also called the son of “Alpheus.” This does not disprove that James is the son of Clopas. The name Alpheus may be Aramaic for Clopas, or James took a Greek name like Saul (Paul), or Mary remarried a man named Alpheus.
 
Some notes I like to add from a website: wapedia.mobi/en/Perpetual_virginity_of_Mary

One of the “brothers” of Jesus is called “Joses” in Mark 6:3 and “Joseph” in the corresponding Matthew 13:55. In present-day Judaism, children are rarely named after the father. [63] On this basis, some scholars argue that it is unlikely that Jesus’ “brothers” were biological children of Joseph. They also state that, in addition to this reference, the only other mention of Joses in Mark (and the whole New Testament) is in 15:40, which (like {{{3}}}) pairs Joses with a James, and in addition says that their mother, a woman called Mary, was present at the Crucifixion and so was then still alive. However, it is not altogether unknown for Jewish children to be named after their fathers - a prominent example is, interestingly enough, named ‘Joseph ben Joseph (José) Nahmias’ of 14th-century Toledo, Spain. [64] . (In Hebrew, “ben” means “son of”. [65] ) And the account in Luke 1:59 of the intention expressed, on the occasion of the circumcision of the future John the Baptist, to name the child Zechariah after his father indicates that first-century Jewish custom by no means excluded giving a child his father’s name.

Joseph Blinzler, in his study Die Brüder und Schwestern Jesu, concluded that the “brothers” and “sisters” of Jesus were cousins of his. For Simon and Jude, their relationship with Jesus came from their father Cleophas/Clopas, a brother of Joseph and thus a descendant of David. Their mother’s name is unknown. The mother of James and Joses was a Mary, distinct from Jesus’ mother; she (or her husband) was related in some unspecifiable way to Jesus’ family. There are indications that the father of James (and Joses) was of sacerdotal or Levitical origin and was a brother of Mary. The silence of the Gospels about Joseph after Luke 2 indicates that the putative father of Jesus died soon, after which Mary and her son joined the family of her (their?) closest relative. The children of this family (these families?), grew up with Jesus and were called his brothers and sisters, since in Aramaic there was no other term for them. The early Church kept this term even in Greek to honour in this way these relatives who had meanwhile become eminent members of the Church, and as a way of distinguishing them from the many others in the early Church that had the same names. [66]
 
What does ‘Only Begotten’ mean? Wouldn’t you say that that’s much clearer? Jesus is God’s Only Begotten. No confussion there.
Jesus is the only Son of God.
Actually, if I remember correctly, it’s a prophecy about a real gate. Jesus will be the next to enter the gate in the future.
Jesus came to the world through a woman. His flesh is the flesh of Mary. So in a sense, Jesus came into the world through Mary’s body.
His brothers and sisters were mentioned in other verses wiping out your point.
John 7:3-4; Mark 3:21 - we see that younger “brothers” were advising Jesus. But this would have been extremely disrespectful for devout Jews if these were Jesus’ biological brothers. Have you read about Reuben’s younger brothers in context to your point?
They aren’t his younger his brothers. They are his elder cousins. The attitude taken by the “brethren of the Lord” implies they are his elders. In ancient and, particularly, in Eastern societies (remember, Palestine is in Asia), older sons gave advice to younger, but younger seldom gave advice to older—it was considered disrespectful to do so. But we find Jesus’ “brethren” saying to him that Galilee was no place for him and that he should go to Judea so he could make a name for himself (John 7:3–4).

When Jesus was found in the Temple at age twelve, the context suggests that he was the only son of Mary and Joseph. There is no hint in this episode of any other children in the family (Luke 2:41–51). Jesus grew up in Nazareth, and the people of Nazareth referred to him as “the son of Mary” (Mark 6:3), not as “a son of Mary.” In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are called Jesus’ “brethren.” If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.

Another time, they sought to restrain him for his own benefit: “And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, ‘He is beside himself’” (Mark 3:21). This kind of behavior could make sense for ancient Jews only if the “brethren” were older than Jesus, but that alone eliminates them as his biological brothers, since Jesus was Mary’s “first-born” son (Luke 2:7).

Consider what happened at the foot of the cross. When he was dying, Jesus entrusted his mother to the apostle John (John 19:26–27). The Gospels mention four of his “brethren”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is hard to imagine why Jesus would have disregarded family ties and made this provision for his mother if these four were also her sons.
 
Sometimes I feel it’s only me who thinks that it would be just plain creepy for the “mother of my Lord” to have sex at all . . . I know that’s not a reason at all, that just how I feel. 🤷
 
I used the word encounter as opposed to a relationship. I have no sexual connotations with that. A spouse is a relationship. The Holy Spirit’s overshadowing was an encounter and not a relationship. The word spouse denotes a relationship. I do not believe in using any sexual imagery or words when it comes to describing what happened to Mary. I simply do not go that route. Then you, with your sick mind, and rest assured, it is sick, spewed this venom

Used? Asbolutely not.
One night stand? Disgusting. I wonder what kind of unregenerate heart could come up with that?
Used her and never called? Gross. I hope you do not work around children. You have a sick mind.
You disgust me adstrinity. Your post disgusts me. Its beyond the bounds. You have deep problems and this sexual language should get you banned.
“But, doctor, you’re the one who keeps showing me the dirty pictures.”

I am rather ammused by you are the one who made the initial statement, and you are trying to put me on the defensive…even calling my personal life into this equasion.

They had an encounter, according to you, not a relationship, according to you. Let me see if I can clarify your sentiments, you insist this is NOT what you believe, but, you do not define what you believe, but rather want to talk about me. So, this is what you believe: The Holy Spirit (God) got Mary pregnant without a relationship. He had no concern for Her, (I am assuming this is what you believe) because if He did, He would have had a relationship with Her, but, seeing as how it was just an encounter, God did not care for or about Mary… This is the logical (to me) conclusion to your argument. I have asked you, others have asked you, please explain, “encounter.” It seems like a one-time thing to me, what you are saying.
 
This is just speculation on Mary by some that want us to believe they are correct. I don’t find in Scritpure that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus was born.
Matthew 1:25, “she remained a virgin “until” her son was born.”
Luke 2:7, “She gave birth to her “first child,” a son.”
**
When Jesus was found in the Temple at age twelve, the context suggests that he was the only son of Mary and Joseph. There is no hint in this episode of any other children in the family (Luke 2:41–51). Jesus grew up in Nazareth, and the people of Nazareth referred to him as “the son of Mary” (Mark 6:3), not as “a son of Mary.” In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary’s sons, not even when they are called Jesus’ “brethren.” If they were in fact her sons, this would be strange usage.

Also, the attitude taken by the “brethren of the Lord” implies they are his elders. In ancient and, particularly, in Eastern societies (remember, Palestine is in Asia), older sons gave advice to younger, but younger seldom gave advice to older—it was considered disrespectful to do so. But we find Jesus’ “brethren” saying to him that Galilee was no place for him and that he should go to Judea so he could make a name for himself (John 7:3–4).

Another time, they sought to restrain him for his own benefit: “And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, ‘He is beside himself’” (Mark 3:21). This kind of behavior could make sense for ancient Jews only if the “brethren” were older than Jesus, but that alone eliminates them as his biological brothers, since Jesus was Mary’s “first-born” son (Luke 2:7).

Consider what happened at the foot of the cross. When he was dying, Jesus entrusted his mother to the apostle John (John 19:26–27). The Gospels mention four of his “brethren”: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is hard to imagine why Jesus would have disregarded family ties and made this provision for his mother if these four were also her sons.

Fundamentalists insist that “brethren of the Lord” must be interpreted in the strict sense. They most commonly make two arguments based on Matthew 1:25: “[A]nd he did not know her until (Greek: heos, also translated into English as “till”) she brought forth her firstborn son.” They first argue that the natural inference from “till” is that Joseph and Mary afterward lived together as husband and wife, in the usual sense, and had several children. Otherwise, why would Jesus be called “first-born”? Doesn’t that mean there must have been at least a “second-born,” perhaps a “third-born,” and so on? But they are using a narrow, modern meaning of “until,” instead of the meaning it had when the Bible was written. In the Bible, it means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that the action did happen later, which is the modern sense of the term. In fact, if the modern sense is forced on the Bible, some ridiculous meanings result.

Consider this line: “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death” (2 Sam. 6:23). Are we to assume she had children after her death?

There is also the burial of Moses. The book of Deuteronomy says that no one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” (Deut. 34:6, Knox). But we know that no one has known since that day either.

The examples could be multiplied, but you get the idea—nothing can be proved from the use of the word “till” in Matthew 1:25. Recent translations give a better sense of the verse: “He had no relations with her at any time before she bore a son” (New American Bible); “He had not known her when she bore a son” (Knox).

Fundamentalists claim Jesus could not be Mary’s “first-born” unless there were other children that followed him. But this shows ignorance of the way the ancient Jews used the term. For them it meant the child that opened the womb (Ex. 13:2; Num. 3:12). Under the Mosaic Law, it was the “first-born” son that was to be sanctified (Ex. 34:20). Did this mean the parents had to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the “first-born”? Hardly. The first male child of a marriage was termed the “first-born” even if he turned out to be the only child of the marriage.

Then look at what John says: “But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene” (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. So far, so good.

An argument against this, though, is that James is elsewhere (Matt. 10:3) described as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Another possibility is that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way that Saul took the name Paul.

So it’s probable that James the younger is the son of Mary and Clopas. The second-century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be Joseph’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was Joseph’s putative son.

This identification of the “brethren of the Lord” as Jesus’ first cousins is open to legitimate question—they might even be relatives more distantly removed—but our inability to determine for certain their exact status strictly on the basis of the biblical evidence (or lack of it, in this case) says nothing at all about the main point, which is that the Bible demonstrates that they were not the Blessed Virgin Mary’s children.**
 
AND FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY & NIXON!!! This is a post about the Protestant Reformers View of Mary. Not a Catholic vs. Modern Protestant debate about Her. MODERN PROTESTANTS, I know you don’t much hold to your founders as infallible, but, you believe them in some things, why not this one? Although, I know the answer to that as well…each man is his own pope. Please face these issues.
 
One of the “brothers” of Jesus is called “Joses” in Mark 6:3 and “Joseph” in the corresponding Matthew 13:55. In present-day Judaism, children are rarely named after the father. [63] On this basis, some scholars argue that it is unlikely that Jesus’ “brothers” were biological children of Joseph.
What does this mean in light of the above?

Luke 1:59 So it was, on the eighth day, that they came to circumcise the child; and they would have called him by the name of his father, Zacharias.
 
What does this mean in light of the above?

Luke 1:59 So it was, on the eighth day, that they came to circumcise the child; and they would have called him by the name of his father, Zacharias.
They came to circumcised the child whom they were about to called Zachariah. Of course as the passage goes, Zecharias name him John. Elizabeth is Mary’s cousin. Mary had sister as mention in John’s Gospel. In John 19:25, it states, "So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.

There is no evidence whatever that James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon were Mary’s children. Adelphoi will not carry the burden of this departure from traditional Christian doctrine.

Now let me say a few words about each of these four men. James “the Little” or “the Younger” is often called “brother [adelphos] of the Lord” (Matt. 13:55, Mark 6:3, Gal. 1:19, and elsewhere by implication).

Twice he is named in series with Joses (Joseph), Judas, and Simon. Their “sisters” (adelphai) are also mentioned, but not named (Matt. 13:56, Mark 6:3). James is mentioned with Joses at the time of our Lord’s death. They are there called the sons of Mary, the wife of Clopas, a Mary different from our Blessed Mother (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25).

This “other” Mary (Matt. 27:61, 28:1) is called our Lady’s “sister” (adelphe) in John 19:25. It is unlikely that two girls of the same parents were given the same name “Mary.” So our Lady and the other Mary were related in a wider sense of adelphai. James, the son of the other Mary, a relative of Jesus, but not his uterine brother, became the first bishop of Jerusalem.

Joses (Joseph) is several times mentioned with his brother James and is mentioned alone as the son of the other Mary at the burial of Jesus (Mark 15:47).

Judas, not the Iscariot, nicknamed Thaddeus and Lebbeus, was an apostle of Christ and the author of the Epistle of Jude, in which he says that he is the “brother of James” (Jude 1:1). Tertullian, Origen, and other early Christian writers witness to an ancient tradition that this Judas is the one mentioned in Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 as one of the adelphoi of Christ.

It is possible that he is the Judas Barsabbas (son of Sabbas) of Acts 15:22-33 and the brother of Joseph Barsabbas, a nominee with Matthias in the apostolic election of Acts 1:23-26. If this Sabbas was the father of the Joseph and Judas of Mark 6:3, he was possibly also the father of James and Simon of the same verse. James and Judas were apostles, then, and Joseph just missed becoming an apostle by the fall of the dice (Acts 1:26).

Simon was also one of these adelphoi of Jesus, and he was an apostle. Except for his nicknames, Zealot and Cananean, nothing is known of him for sure. Next, I want to cite a passage from Keating, then give Kilmon’s reaction to it. I beg the reader’s careful attention to these two passages:

"At the Annunciation, when the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, she asked, ‘How can that be, since I have no knowledge of man?’ (Luke1:34). From the earliest interpretations of the Bible we see that this was taken to mean that she had made a vow of life-long virginity, even in marriage. If she had taken no such vow, the question would make no sense at all.

"There is no reason to assume Mary was wholly ignorant of the rudiments of biology. She presumably knew the normal way in which children are conceived. If she anticipated having children and did not intend to maintain a vow of virginity, she would hardly have to ask ‘how’ she was to have a child, since having a child the ‘normal’ way would be expected by a newlywed.

“No, her question makes sense only if there was an apparent (but not a real) conflict between keeping a vow of virginity and acceding to the angel’s request. A careful look at the New Testament shows Mary kept her vow and never had any children other than Jesus.”
 
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