The protestants are actually members of the Catholic Church !?

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If one has been baptized they are part of the mystical body of Christ. We are all imperfect members because we all sin, some to a greater degree than others. The degree of imperfection varies with each individual, therefore I cannot say that I am saved simply because I am a Catholic. I must live out the Christian life, to the end, according to the teachings of the Church, putting flesh on the words of the Gospel.

Subsequent to Baptism we are all free to squander the grace given to us. This is the importance of the sacraments of the Eucharist and Reconciliation; to fill our jar once again with God’s grace. When we sin, we harm the entire body of Christ just as diseased physical body parts affect the entire body. Those who are in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church are akin to a body part which for some reason is not functioning in the manner for which it was intended. Division in the Church wounds the body of Christ, but so does a Catholic who is not living out his or her faith. But a part of the body that is not functioning properly is still a part of the body.

Wow. I hope all of that makes sense and comes even close to answering your question.
It sounds like the whole Church Militant is thus imperfectly connected to the Mystical Body of Christ & the Church Triumphet is perfectly connected to the Mystical Body of Christ?

It sounds like earlier in this forum that the Catholic Church was the same as the Mystical Body of Christ but only differed in subtle ways because the visible Church does not constitute the Church Suffering & Triumphet?

Am I confusing myself? I think I may be. Kindly - James
 
Protestants have grace to receive eternal life through faith in Christ.

But Christ also says when we eat His Bread and drink His wine, we are actually eating His body and drinking His blood, and then we will have eternal life.

To believe we are actually receiving the Soul, Body, Blood and Divinity is a grace given us by the Lord that we in ourselves do not deserve and cannot earn.

You can receive the Lord spiritually and sacramentally, meaning the Eucharist.

Pray for more grace in faith that you already have. Receiving the Eucharist properly opens up a new world for us and we enter as well into the communion of saints. There are many volumes written about the lives of the saints and in how the Eucharist was lived out by each of them with many ‘accents’ as St. Thomas Aquinas’ term, or charisms, and fruits of the Holy Spirit.

There is so much more to Christianity when you have faith in the Eucharist.

The bottom issue is authority issues.

The Catholic Church is as a ‘pool’ to enter to receive the fullness of Christ…note, the fullness of Christ, the fullness of the deposit of faith in Him.

The Vatican Library is the greatest library in the world and is testament to Him of all the fruits that have been brought forth in so many ways by faith lived out.

Please note this as an opportunity to share more of Christianity with you than being in an exclusive organization. The Church lives out its true charism when it empties itself out of love for others, rather than turned in on itself. When the Church empties itself out for all in the world, it is fulfilling its mission.

The worst sin is lack of love, which points to pride. We are undeserving of this faith as well.
 
Alright, so I am a Protestant. I found these forums a couple days ago. I had recently read the book Falling Upward by Richard Rohr, a Catholic. They don’t believe in real presence so they don’t have mass; they don’t believe in the authority of the Pope; they are anti the BVM, etc… nevertheless, they actually are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church

Welcome to the Forums…🙂

I would recommend a reading of the Catechism of the CC…available online here…scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Isn’t this the same kind of argument Peter and Paul got into. I thought Jesus said that whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life.
 
Knowledge of the faith can never, ever damn someone who otherwise would have been saved in their ignorance. If someone would reject the truth if they came to know it, it means they don’t have the proper disposition that allows someone to be saved while ignorant. The ignorant person must have faith, which entails the will to believe all God has revealed no matter what.

Evagenlization therefore has two positive effects: for those already on the road to salvation, it fulfulls their desire to able to know, worship, and serve their beloved God the way He has commanded, and for those that have suppressed the promptings of their conscience, it provides an external and harder to ignore call to acknowledge and accept grace through faith (“faith comes through hearing” according to the Bible).

As for imperfect communion, this is nothing new. Here’s how St. Augustine explains it:
St. Augustine:

And so others could receive from them, while they still had not joined our society, what they themselves had not lost by severance from our society. And hence it is clear that they are guilty of impiety who endeavor to rebaptize those who are in Catholic unity; and we act rightly who do not dare to repudiate God’s sacraments, even when administered in schism. For in all points in which they think with us, they also are in communion with us, and only are severed from us in those points in which they dissent from us.​

But if they observe some of the same things, in respect of these they have not severed themselves; and so far they are still a part of the framework of the Church, while in all other respects they are cut off from it. Accordingly, any one whom they have associated with themselves is united to the Church in all those points in which they are not separated from it. And therefore, if he wish to come over to the Church, he is made sound in those points in which he was unsound and went astray; but where he was sound in union with the Church, he is not cured, but recognized—lest in desiring to cure what is sound we should rather inflict a wound.
newadvent.org/fathers/14081.htm

Also, partial communion does not equal membership. While Baptism incorporates them into Christ somewhat, full incorporation is necessary for membership:
Pius XII:
  1. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
 
Also, it is not unreasonable to not charge those born into separated communities, who otherwise are baptized, with the sin of separation. Here’s what Cardinal Manning wrote in the 19th century about Anglicans, in his work on the Workings of the Holy Spirit in the Church of England. Note what he says at the end about the passage of time from the first separation making subsequent members of those communities less and less likely to be culpable. Over a hundred years has passed since then.
Cardinal Manning:
In the judgment of the Catholic Church, a baptised people is no longer in the state of nature, but is admitted to a state of supernatural grace.

[he goes on to lament the fact that many in England are not being baptized for various reasons]

Still, the English people as a body are baptised, and therefore elevated to the order of supernatural grace. Every infant, and also every adult baptised, having the necessary dispositions, is thereby placed in a state of justification; and, if they die without committing any mortal sin, would certainly be saved. They are also, in the sight of the Church, Catholics. St. Augustine says, “Ecclesia etiam inter eos qui foris sunt per baptismum generat suos.”

[he goes onto argue that they only are outside the Church through culpable heresy]

And they who are culpably out of it are those who know—or might, and therefore ought to, know —that it is their duty to submit to it. The Church teaches that men may be inculpably out of its pale. Now they are inculpably out of it who are, and have always been, either physically or morally unable to see their obligation to submit to it. And they only are culpably out of it who are both physically and morally able to know that it is God’s will they should submit to the Church; and either knowing it will not obey that knowledge, or, not knowing it, are culpable for that ignorance. I will say, then, that we hopefully apply this benign law of our Divine Master as far as possible to the English people. First, it is applicable in the letter to the whole multitude of those baptised persons who are under the age of reason. Secondly, to all who are in good faith, of whatsoever age they be: such as a great many of the poor and unlettered, to whom it is often physically, and very often morally, impossible to judge which is the true revelation or the true Church of God. I say physically, because in these three hundred years the Catholic Church has been so swept off the face of England that nine or ten generations of men have lived and died without the Faith being so much as proposed to them, or the Church ever visible to them; and I say morally, because the great majority of the poor, from lifelong prejudice, are often incapable of judging in questions so removed from the primary truths of conscience and Christianity. Of such simple persons it may be said that infantibus cequiparanttir, they are to be classed morally with infants. Again, to these may be added the unlearned in all classes, among whom many have no contact with the Catholic Church, or with Catholic books. Under this head will come a great number of wives and daughters, whose freedom of religious inquiry and religious thought is unjustly limited or suspended by the authority of parents and husbands. Add, lastly, the large class who have been studiously brought up, with all the dominant authority of the English tradition of three hundred years, to believe sincerely, and without a doubt, that the Catholic Church is corrupt, has changed the doctrines of the Faith, and that the author of the Reformation is the Spirit of holiness and truth. It may seem incredible to some that such an illusion exists. But it is credible to me, because for nearly forty years of my life I was fully possessed by this erroneous belief. To all such persons it is morally difficult in no small degree to discover the falsehood of this illusion. All the better parts of their nature are engaged in its support: dutifulness, self-mistrust, submission, respect for others older, better, more learned than themselves, all combine to form a false conscience, and the duty to refuse to hear anything against “the religion of their fathers,” “the Church of their baptism,” or to read anything which could unsettle them. Such people are told that it is their duty to extinguish a doubt against the Church of England, as they would extinguish a temptation against their virtue. A conscience so subdued and held in subjection exercises true virtues upon a false object, and renders to a human authority the submissive trust which is due only to the Divine voice of the Church of God.

Still further, I believe that the people of England were not all guilty of the first acts of heresy and schism by which they were separated from the Catholic unity and faith. They were robbed of it. In many places they rose in arms for it. The children, the poor, the unlearned at that time, were certainly innocent: much more the next generation. They were born into a state of privation. They knew no better. No choice was before them. They made no perverse act of the will in remaining where they were born. Every successive generation was still less culpable, in proportion as they were born into a greater privation, and under the dominion of a tradition of error already grown strong. For three centuries they have been born further and further out of the truth, and their culpability is perpetually diminishing; and as they were passively borne onward in the course of the English separation, the moral responsibility for the past is proportionately less.
 
thanks pablope for all of that information

please excuse my poor grammar I’m replying on my droid.

Now I understand that the church doesn’t require membership to enter heaven. I am in accordance with the necessity of mass, the pope, and venerating Mary, so in theory I have many of the same beliefs as a catholic. so to get back to the initial post, if I have the same beliefs then why is it such a big deal that a protestant attends mass?? I agree that the my pastor has the authority much like the pope, I agree on the concepts Jesus laid out for communion, I agree that Mary ought to be venerated, and my church has the same beliefs. the only difference between us it seems is we are not “members”. I don’t mean to be rude, I would like to have a greater understanding for sure. the way the topic of this forum sounds makes it seem like catholics are part of a secret club… to enter you must be an approved member?

my mom did me a great service by taaking me to an easter Sunday mass at the catholic chirch in seattle when I was a teenager, I loved it. she was never catholic but loves to gain understanding and loves history and different cultures. by the topic of this forum, I would never had been allowed that great honor.

so why the disparity? I guess is the question

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It sounds like the whole Church Militant is thus imperfectly connected to the Mystical Body of Christ & the Church Triumphet is perfectly connected to the Mystical Body of Christ?

It sounds like earlier in this forum that the Catholic Church was the same as the Mystical Body of Christ but only differed in subtle ways because the visible Church does not constitute the Church Suffering & Triumphet?

Am I confusing myself? I think I may be. Kindly - James
The mystical body of Christ is the Church and the Church is a divine institution made up of sinners who are constantly being sanctified and renewed through the sacraments. For those of us who die and are not in a perfect state of grace, we will be purified by God’s own love in purgatory (thank God for purgatory). So the body of Christ is a motley crew, made perfect by its head, Jesus Christ.
 
thanks pablope for all of that information

please excuse my poor grammar I’m replying on my droid.

Now I understand that the church doesn’t require membership to enter heaven. I am in accordance with the necessity of mass, the pope, and venerating Mary, so in theory I have many of the same beliefs as a catholic. so to get back to the initial post, if I have the same beliefs then why is it such a big deal that a protestant attends mass?? I agree that the my pastor has the authority much like the pope, I agree on the concepts Jesus laid out for communion, I agree that Mary ought to be venerated, and my church has the same beliefs. the only difference between us it seems is we are not “members”. I don’t mean to be rude, I would like to have a greater understanding for sure. the way the topic of this forum sounds makes it seem like catholics are part of a secret club… to enter you must be an approved member?

my mom did me a great service by taaking me to an easter Sunday mass at the catholic chirch in seattle when I was a teenager, I loved it. she was never catholic but loves to gain understanding and loves history and different cultures. by the topic of this forum, I would never had been allowed that great honor.

so why the disparity? I guess is the question

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Now enters the arguement of apostolic succession.
Your pastor has the same authority as the pope; and whom gave your pastor that authority?
 
lol. no its not like that t all. I was merely going off of the analogy another poster had used earlier to explain things to me. i quoted the relevent piece below. I assumed after the dead silence that ensued my post that I must have gone too far. Honestly I am just looking for answers to questions that don’t make sense to me. I really like the catholic way of things and I always try to keep an open mind; however, there are some things that I have to have a firm ground upon. one of them is the isolation that I am noticing obviously stated in the title of this dialogue. Now obviously this topic divided Ireland and many other people so maybe the answer is not that simple and that is why nobody will reply. I am seriously curious why it is a big deal that a protestant attends mass. regardless if I have the same beliefs or not(which i feel i share many), isn’t christianity all accepting, aren’t we all sinners, so why would it matter?

Quote:

AND believes in the authority of the Pope,

Well…Jesus did say to Peter…feed my sheep.

If you do no believe in the authority of the Pope…do you believe in the authority of your pastor…which is kind of…your pope in a sense?

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EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)
And the protestants, actually, are INSIDE the Catholic Church!

They don’t believe in real presence so they don’t have mass; they don’t believe in the authority of the Pope; they are anti the BVM, etc… nevertheless, they actually are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH #838
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Their rejection of the many Catholic doctrines is not putting them outside the Catholic Church so long they believe in Christ and have been properly baptized.

Now, this is the game changer:
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. Lumen Gentium 14

Therefore, for the benefit of the doubt,** is it charitable to believe that all protestants don’t know if the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ?** Because, the truth is that only the all-knowing God who knows exactly what each protestant knows and how deep is his/her knowledge about the Catholic Church which was made necessary by Christ.

Most protestants believe sincerely, that many of the teaching of the Catholic Church is against the bible, hence it’s impossible for them to know that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ.

Is my argument valid? Please enlighten me if I am wrong. Thanks!
Panorama,

What is the purpose in desiging an argument? Perhaps a better question would be…How do I understand this. The Catechism is divided in 4 parts…

Profession of Faith
We believe (I believe ) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begottenSon of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God ) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for usmen and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man ; was crucified also for us underPontius Pilate, suffered and wasburied ; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe ) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son ), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by theProphets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) theresurrection of the dead and thelife of the world to come. Amen."
Sacramental Mystery
Life in Christ
Prayer


The crux of the matter is that many Protestants will accept the profession of Faith and waiver on what is outlined in red.

So here is my question to you…how is it you believe what you believe, ie the profession of Faith?
 
The protestants are infidels made when the king wanted a divorce anyone who did not convert would be killed and the religion was made due to ignorance there are still protestants who have not bothered to convert to the true faith.
 
The mystical body of Christ is the Church and the Church is a divine institution made up of sinners who are constantly being sanctified and renewed through the sacraments. For those of us who die and are not in a perfect state of grace, we will be purified by God’s own love in purgatory (thank God for purgatory). So the body of Christ is a motley crew, made perfect by its head, Jesus Christ.
Thanks Steve,

I reflected on this for a while and I think I understand it much better. This was helpful. I appreciate it.

Kindly - James
 
Crazydays, perhaps the issue you are having is one of culture and worldview disparity. Americans are born into a worldview of rugged individualism that we take for granted and rarely challenge significantly. In many ways this worldview is NOT compatible with God’s design for human community. Our solidarity is not meant to be a merely invisible ideal, but a concrete reality of daily life. Christ willed his people to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Back when all his people understood this request and shared that vision, whole continents were converted. But ever since people have come to think of the christian faith in terms of being able to walk their own road and find their own truth, christianity as a whole has stagnated at best.

Unity isn’t just a fuzzy feeling, it’s a quantifiable thing. There’s no use in pretending to be unified if we aren’t. That’s why protestants shouldn’t receive communion in a catholic church. It’s not a tool towards achieving unity, it’s literally the lamb of God, sacrificed to take away our sins. We have to BE in communion to receive it together.
 
thanks pablope for all of that information

please excuse my poor grammar I’m replying on my droid.

Now I understand that the church doesn’t require membership to enter heaven. I am in accordance with the necessity of mass, the pope, and venerating Mary, so in theory I have many of the same beliefs as a catholic. so to get back to the initial post,** if I have the same beliefs then why is it such a big deal that a protestant attends mass?? I agree that the my pastor has the authority much like the pope, I agree on the concepts** Jesus laid out for communion, I agree that Mary ought to be venerated, and my church has the same beliefs. the only difference between us it seems is we are not “members”. I don’t mean to be rude, I would like to have a greater understanding for sure. the way the topic of this forum sounds makes it seem like catholics are part of a secret club… to enter you must be an approved member?

my mom did me a great service by taaking me to an easter Sunday mass at the catholic chirch in seattle when I was a teenager, I loved it. she was never catholic but loves to gain understanding and loves history and different cultures. by the topic of this forum, I would never had been allowed that great honor.

so why the disparity? I guess is the question

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Crazy,

I suggest you read the Catechism. It is the deposit of Faith. It is there for Catholics as well as those looking to see what the Faith teaches, people like you…It is divided into 4 parts…

Profession of Faith
Celebration of the Sacramental Mysteries
Life in Christ
Prayer…

We believe that the Sacraments are grouped into Sacraments of Initiation, Sacraments of healing and Sacraments of Community. We believe that they are sources of grace. So, if you believe in grace, we believe we want all to join in and receive grace.

If you had the Same Beliefs, then you would acknowledge and believe in the professiion of the Creed that we believe…we believe in…
And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins.
Are you sure we share the same beliefs?
 
Quote
And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins.

Are you sure we share the same beliefs?

coptic,

are u going after believing in one holy church or one baptism for remission, or both?

pablope,

that link explained exactly what I was wondering. I at least understand the reasoning behind not wanting protestants to partake and I definitely respect it. I really ought to do this searching on my own, but wasnt Jesus going to allow judas to take communion. also when the 5000 walked away after Jesus mentioned communion, he didn’t mention that in order to take communion they first have to be catholic. like I said I should really read parts of scripture pertaining to communion with the catholic frame of mind, but how is having to be catholic first scriptural when Jesus offered it to the 5000

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I didn’t touch on everything last post

coptic, I agree I need to read the chatechism. as far as the one holy church, there is another thread on protestants entering heaven cuz they were ignorant of the deeper relationship (something like that).

So I err on the catholics stance on that and still need to be educated in the catholic ways before I can make a well meaning decision. but as far as the one baptism for the remission of sins, are you saying catholics believe in the once saved always saved idea, because I don’t agree with. trees must produce fruit.

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I didn’t touch on everything last post

coptic, I agree I need to read the chatechism. as far as the one holy church, there is another thread on protestants entering heaven cuz they were ignorant of the deeper relationship (something like that).

So I err on the catholics stance on that and still need to be educated in the catholic ways before I can make a well meaning decision. but as far as the one baptism for the remission of sins, are you saying catholics believe in the once saved always saved idea, because I don’t agree with. trees must produce fruit.

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Crazy,

The getting saved thing is Protestant in origin…we believe in redemption through Christ, saved from our sins, Baptized and regenerated however once regnerated salvation once gained can be lost.
 
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