The protestants are actually members of the Catholic Church !?

[crazydays08]

thank you everybody for explaining things to me. I really learned a lot through these forums. I will have to research a lot more and look at both sides, but I feel like I totally understand where you guys are coming from now. I feel like I have a lot in common and see that Catholics actually have a deeper more personal understanding of the faith and that is something I am looking for.

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[SteveVH]

Now I understand that the church doesn’t require membership to enter heaven.

It is God who judges us and determines who gets into heaven and God will save whoever He chooses to save. As the normal means for that salvation he founded a Church and gave that Church incredible and awesome power; the keys to the kingdom of heaven. So whoever God chooses to save will be a part of His Church in the end, one way or the other to become a part of the Church Triumphant. We place no limitations upon God when it comes to salvation but beg his mercy for all of mankind.

I am in accordance with the necessity of mass, the pope, and venerating Mary, so in theory I have many of the same beliefs as a catholic. so to get back to the initial post, if I have the same beliefs then why is it such a big deal that a protestant attends mass??

If you have the same beliefs then why don’t you just join the Church? The purpose of RCIA is to make sure that you really are in agreement with the doctrines and teachings of the Catholic Church. It is a really important decision and the Church wants to be as certain as possible that one enters it with an informed conscience, eyes open.

I agree that the my pastor has the authority much like the pope

Then you do not understand who the Pope is nor the office which he holds. As I said, there may be much you need to learn and if you feel that you are being drawn to truth, then you should seek it out.

I agree on the concepts Jesus laid out for communion, I agree that Mary ought to be venerated, and my church has the same beliefs. the only difference between us it seems is we are not “members”. I don’t mean to be rude, I would like to have a greater understanding for sure. the way the topic of this forum sounds makes it seem like catholics are part of a secret club to enter you must be an approved member?

One enters the Church through baptism and the Church invites all of mankind to be members, so it is certainly not a secret club. There is nothing secret about it and if one is willing to believe all that the Church teaches and holds to be true then one can be a member. They can bathe in the grace poured out through the sacraments and eat the feast at the table as part of a family, the people of God.

my mom did me a great service by taaking me to an easter Sunday mass at the catholic chirch in seattle when I was a teenager, I loved it. she was never catholic but loves to gain understanding and loves history and different cultures. by the topic of this forum, I would never had been allowed that great honor.

Yeah, Easter Sunday Mass is very special. Every Mass is Easter Sunday in one respect, however, and it is always special. Heaven touches earth, we join with the angels and saints in heaven who are present at every Mass; the whole family shows up, and we become one with each other and our Lord in the Eucharist.

so why the disparity? I guess is the question

What is it that you reject that prevents you from coming in? The door is open and you are welcome to enter.

 

[crazydays08]

SteveVH:

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydays08

Now I understand that the church doesn’t require membership to enter heaven.

It is God who judges us and determines who gets into heaven and God will save whoever He chooses to save. As the normal means for that salvation he founded a Church and gave that Church incredible and awesome power; the keys to the kingdom of heaven. So whoever God chooses to save will be a part of His Church in the end, one way or the other to become a part of the Church Triumphant. We place no limitations upon God when it comes to salvation but beg his mercy for all of mankind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydays08

I am in accordance with the necessity of mass, the pope, and venerating Mary, so in theory I have many of the same beliefs as a catholic. so to get back to the initial post, if I have the same beliefs then why is it such a big deal that a protestant attends mass??

If you have the same beliefs then why don’t you just join the Church? The purpose of RCIA is to make sure that you really are in agreement with the doctrines and teachings of the Catholic Church. It is a really important decision and the Church wants to be as certain as possible that one enters it with an informed conscience, eyes open.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydays08

I agree that the my pastor has the authority much like the pope

Then you do not understand who the Pope is nor the office which he holds. As I said, there may be much you need to learn and if you feel that you are being drawn to truth, then you should seek it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydays08

I agree on the concepts Jesus laid out for communion, I agree that Mary ought to be venerated, and my church has the same beliefs. the only difference between us it seems is we are not “members”. I don’t mean to be rude, I would like to have a greater understanding for sure. the way the topic of this forum sounds makes it seem like catholics are part of a secret club to enter you must be an approved member?

One enters the Church through baptism and the Church invites all of mankind to be members, so it is certainly not a secret club. There is nothing secret about it and if one is willing to believe all that the Church teaches and holds to be true then one can be a member. They can bathe in the grace poured out through the sacraments and eat the feast at the table as part of a family, the people of God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydays08

my mom did me a great service by taaking me to an easter Sunday mass at the catholic chirch in seattle when I was a teenager, I loved it. she was never catholic but loves to gain understanding and loves history and different cultures. by the topic of this forum, I would never had been allowed that great honor.

Yeah, Easter Sunday Mass is very special. Every Mass is Easter Sunday in one respect, however, and it is always special. Heaven touches earth, we join with the angels and saints in heaven who are present at every Mass; the whole family shows up, and we become one with each other and our Lord in the Eucharist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydays08

so why the disparity? I guess is the question

What is it that you reject that prevents you from coming in? The door is open and you are welcome to enter.

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[crazydays08]

If you have the same beliefs then why don’t you just join the Church?

I would want to be one-hundred percent before I ever joined, and obviously I am far from.

Then you do not understand who the Pope is nor the office which he holds. As I said, there may be much you need to learn and if you feel that you are being drawn to truth, then you should seek it out.

Ya, so I really shouldn’t have re-used that analogy.

Pablope said earlier in this thread:

If you do no believe in the authority of the Pope…do you believe in the authority of your pastor…which is kind of…your pope in a sense?

I agree that I still don’t fully understand the Pope or his office. What I am mostly trying to do is unearth the un-truths that have kept me from ever considering Catholocism. I was merely stating that I now see that the Pope is not invincible like I used to think Catholics believe.

One enters the Church through baptism and the Church invites all of mankind to be members, so it is certainly not a secret club. There is nothing secret about it and if one is willing to believe all that the Church teaches and holds to be true then one can be a member. They can bathe in the grace poured out through the sacraments and eat the feast at the table as part of a family, the people of God.

CopticChristian explained Catholic stance on baptism a little bit that makes sense to me.

The getting saved thing is Protestant in origin…we believe in redemption through Christ, saved from our sins, Baptized and regenerated however once regnerated salvation once gained can be lost.

also the secret club thing came from the title of this thread, to a protestant it seems very “clubbish” because protestants are huge on allowing everyone to participate in every part of the church, which is something I don’t necessarily agree with. We once went on a youth group leadership retreat and there was a youth group leader talking about witchcraft. That is when it dawned on me that the church should NOT be allowing this person to teach others. He was later asked to leave, but how was he ever asked to join is my question.

Yeah, Easter Sunday Mass is very special. Every Mass is Easter Sunday in one respect, however, and it is always special. Heaven touches earth, we join with the angels and saints in heaven who are present at every Mass; the whole family shows up, and we become one with each other and our Lord in the Eucharist.

Eucharist is another area that really spoke to me that I never understood. Although I am not Catholoic, it truly is a shame that protestents don’t get to have that deeper, emotional level that Catholics do in communion.

What is it that you reject that prevents you from coming in? The door is open and you are welcome to enter.

Thank You, that is very kind.

I’m sure I have looked like a crazy protestant with the questions and comments that I have made on this thread, but I seriously never understood the Catholic faith. I have had a few very important protestant mentors in my life that have guided me spiritually and they have all had very negative things to say about Catholicism. So I honestly said what was on my mind and what I have been taught. I have always wanted to ask these questions of a Catholic, but have never known one in a close enough relationship. So this forum has really helped me to understand. These forums are really helpful.

 

[adf417]

I’m sure I have looked like a crazy protestant with the questions and comments that I have made on this thread, but I seriously never understood the Catholic faith. I have had a few very important protestant mentors in my life that have guided me spiritually and they have all had very negative things to say about Catholicism. So I honestly said what was on my mind and what I have been taught. I have always wanted to ask these questions of a Catholic, but have never known one in a close enough relationship. So this forum has really helped me to understand. These forums are really helpful.

God bless you crazydays08 for being open to the Holy Spirit and willing to search for the truth.

Peace!!!

 

[JonNC]

Eucharist is another area that really spoke to me that I never understood. Although I am not Catholoic, it truly is a shame that protestents don’t get to have that deeper, emotional level that Catholics do in communion.

Speak for yourself, crazy.

The Eucharist, for this Lutheran, along with the word and Absolution, is the central focus of worship and my growth in grace. When I approach the altar, kneel in adoration, and receive His true body and blood, I know I receive forgiveness of sins, and the strength I need to walk through everyday life.

Jon

 

[iloveangels]

Crazydays, perhaps the issue you are having is one of culture and worldview disparity. Americans are born into a worldview of rugged individualism that we take for granted and rarely challenge significantly. In many ways this worldview is NOT compatible with God’s design for human community. Our solidarity is not meant to be a merely invisible ideal, but a concrete reality of daily life. Christ willed his people to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. Back when all his people understood this request and shared that vision, whole continents were converted. But ever since people have come to think of the christian faith in terms of being able to walk their own road and find their own truth, christianity as a whole has stagnated at best.

Unity isn’t just a fuzzy feeling, it’s a quantifiable thing. There’s no use in pretending to be unified if we aren’t. That’s why protestants shouldn’t receive communion in a catholic church. It’s not a tool towards achieving unity, it’s literally the lamb of God, sacrificed to take away our sins. We have to BE in communion to receive it together.

Good explanation.

 

[iloveangels]

but as far as the one baptism for the remission of sins, are you saying catholics believe in the once saved always saved idea, because I don’t agree with. trees must produce fruit.

It’s interesting you say this because some Catholics think that some Protestants think this.

Catholics think that baptism does a bunch of things:

1. makes you a member of the Church, and you are “born” as a Christian,
2. makes an indelible mark on your soul, and the Holy Spirit comes into you.

But we know that there is always a possibility that a person might not live up to the responsibility they receive when they are baptized, and not go to heaven as a result. Baptism alone is necessary but not sufficient if a person lives long enough after their baptism to engage in serious sins. No sin can destroy a baptism, though. Once baptized, you remain baptized. A person can only receive this sacrament validly once. [However, in case of doubt that it was done or done validly, it can be done conditionally just to make sure it’s been done.]

We also recognize that certain converts to the Church have had Protestant baptisms that were valid and we accept them. The proper form and intention must have been present, though, and there has to be proof that it happened. This is perfectly okay.

OH, and baptism removes original sin (the sin of Adam & Eve) and in the case of a person old enough to have committed sins before baptism, it removes all sins when it’s done.

After your baptism when you sin, you go to confession and repent and try to change your life to improve your relationship with God, get better morally and become more holy.

 

[crazydays08]

so I was just in B&N reading the dummies giude to Catholic Chaticism. a couple of areas it didn’t cover very well as far as scriptural proof are infant baptism and the whole priest forgiveness thing. Is going to a priest the only way to be forgiven? you can’t just ask God for forgiveness? It is very different so I want to know the scriptural backing.

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[CopticChristian]

so I was just in B&N reading the dummies giude to Catholic Chaticism. a couple of areas it didn’t cover very well as far as scriptural proof are infant baptism and the whole priest forgiveness thing. Is going to a priest the only way to be forgiven? you can’t just ask God for forgiveness? It is very different so I want to know the scriptural backing.

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Crazy,

I suggest that you look at the USA Catechism for adults and preferably the Audo version. Notice that the deposit of Faith is by Revelation and when you say that you cannot find Scriptural Support…now one thing you can do is look at the Catechism online seen here…I suggest you rethink your approach…ask this

On what basis is this belief pronounced? You will find Church documents based on Scripture and Scripture. Understand that the Church has been propagating the Faith for 2000 years and it has not been cook book style…going to the Bible saying, see here…it is a practice that is based on a practice that has a history that involves the use of Scripture.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

The Catechism will direct you to the references used for this belief found at the bottom
and here you will see some of the Scripture used. You would have to dig into the other references that have Scriptural Support…

50 Cf. Council of Trent (1546): DS 1514; cf. Col 1:12-14.
51 Cf. CIC, can. 867; CCEO, cann. 681; 686,1.
52 Cf. LG 11; 41; GS 48; CIC, can. 868.
53 Cf. Acts 16:15,33; 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16; CDF, instruction, Pastoralis actio: AAS 72 (1980) 1137-1156.

You won’t find…

Infant Baptism…based on Matthew, Mark…etc…it will be documents based on Scripture and Scripture…

 

[crazydays08]

thank you coptic for the link, that is a difficult one to grasp but I understand your point of view of tradition and parents as nurturers

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[CopticChristian]

thank you coptic for the link, that is a difficult one to grasp but I understand your point of view of tradition and parents as nurturers

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Crazy,

I believe an orderly approach would help you…try the YouCat for teens as a starter…then tackle the USA Catechism for adults…Catholicism for dummies may be a good place to go but it is not definitive like the Catechism…after all it is for dummies and the Catechism is for the faithful…and those that want to know the Faith…

 

[crazydays08]

lol coptic you callin me a dummie?! I rented a Catholic introduction book from the library. I have barely started reading it, but some things I do want a deeper explanation. thanks for all your help btw

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[pablope]

so I was just in B&N reading the dummies giude to Catholic Chaticism. a couple of areas it didn’t cover very well as far as scriptural proof are infant baptism and the whole priest forgiveness thing. Is going to a priest the only way to be forgiven? you can’t just ask God for forgiveness? It is very different so I want to know the scriptural backing.

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On confession…here is an indept book…Scott Hahn’s Lord Have Mercy…amazon.com/Lord-Have-Mercy-Healing-Confession/dp/0385501706

Drawing on the history of ancient Israel, the Gospels, the writings of the early Church, and the lives of the saints, Hahn reveals the living, scriptural heart of the Church’s teachings on penance, forgiveness, and reconciliation. It is a story that begins with the sin of Adam and Eve, continues in the biographies of Moses, King David, and the Apostle Peter, and reverberates in the lives of believers today. Hahn presents the Catholic and biblical perspective on sin and mercy, elucidating in clear, easily understood language the true import of Jesus’ simple, yet profound promise–“I am the door; if anyone enters by Me, he will be saved (John 10:9).

I will leave with this to think about:

Job 42:

7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.

Question: Why did God, who spoke directly to Eliphaz, not just forgive him directly? And why did God order him to go through Job?

 

[CopticChristian]

lol coptic you callin me a dummie?! I rented a Catholic introduction book from the library. I have barely started reading it, but some things I do want a deeper explanation. thanks for all your help btw

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Crazy,

No. From one dummie to another understand that these dummie books are aids but not necessarily de fide.

 

[PaulinePresbytr]

EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS (No Salvation Outside the Church)
And the protestants, actually, are INSIDE the Catholic Church!

They don’t believe in real presence so they don’t have mass; they don’t believe in the authority of the Pope; they are anti the BVM, etc… nevertheless, they actually are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH #838
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm

Their rejection of the many Catholic doctrines is not putting them outside the Catholic Church so long they believe in Christ and have been properly baptized.

Now, this is the game changer:
Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. Lumen Gentium 14

Therefore, for the benefit of the doubt,** is it charitable to believe that all protestants don’t know if the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ?** Because, the truth is that only the all-knowing God who knows exactly what each protestant knows and how deep is his/her knowledge about the Catholic Church which was made necessary by Christ.

Most protestants believe sincerely, that many of the teaching of the Catholic Church is against the bible, hence it’s impossible for them to know that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ.

Is my argument valid? Please enlighten me if I am wrong. Thanks!

We do believe in the real presence, we just believe it to be spiritual (for the reformed) and consubstantiation (for the lutherans). We are very sacramental. You are thinking of modern day non denominationals.

(And I was both baptized and confirmed catholic)

 

[KathleenGee]

I am back for awhile…

Pauline Presbyter…Protestants do have spiritual communion with Christ through baptism, a Catholic rite and sacrament of initiation.

But Catholic/Orthodox is concrete. Not symbolic, because being symbolic then is akin to a belief contrasting with the actual sacrament of the Eucharist…spiritual relativism.

Reducing something that is literally spoken of as concrete and coming from Christ…He said in another, ‘I am the Door’…Christ can never be a door, but speaking symbolically…

But he expounded a second time with His followers when they were incredulous about eating His bread and drinking His blood, and they then left. The Apostles remained, Peter exclaiming where could they go as only Christ could give them eternal life.

So there is also the link between Eucharist and eternal life, as well as fulfillment of Jewish practices of the daily sacrifice at the temple, the Jewish gathering of the Breaking of Bread…

Christ’s decree, ‘Do this…’ is the new form of worship, the Memorial, the Mass, the Daily Sacrifice, more than just spiritual where we are physically, emotionally, and spiritually renewed every day through the nourishment of the Eucharist.

Finally to have contextual understanding of the Eucharist, you then have to go back in time to see how worship was practiced in earliest times…St. Justin the Martyr writing about the Mass in 155 AD in how it was practiced throughout the entire world, gives us the first full document…its spirit, tone, and parts same as the Mass today.

So we just can’t look at teachings of Scripture, orthodoxy. We must also look at orthopraxis…how faith is lived out and put into practice in how the Apostles founded the Church, and its subsequent development.

 

[crazydays08]

thanks pablope that looks like a really good book. I will definitely check it out. I see what your saying about job, thats a very good point. I am really interested in new testament proof

hey coptic im sorry I meant to insert a smiley face to show I was just joking around. I see what ur saying about going to the teen version first, the adult version is a lot to swallow. thanks coptic

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[KathleenGee]

Dr Scott Hahn was a former Protestant minister and theologian who was always taking on the Catholic Church. There was an area called ‘justification’ that had gaps in his thinking.

He came to an understanding, and then realized this was also the Catholic Church’s position.

He stresses and draws on areas that can answer many Protestants’ questions and misunderstandings about ‘Mother Church’.

 

[CopticChristian]

Dr Scott Hahn was a former Protestant minister and theologian who was always taking on the Catholic Church. There was an area called ‘justification’ that had gaps in his thinking.

He came to an understanding, and then realized this was also the Catholic Church’s position.

He stresses and draws on areas that can answer many Protestants’ questions and misunderstandings about ‘Mother Church’.

Kathleen,

I believe you point out something that is relevant. Scott Hahn, Cardinal Neumann…and others studied themselves into the Catholic Church. This should cause some to pause as they see that Protestant thought creates such distress in the mind that in order to overcome and accept what these scholars have found it takes dedication and study. This speaks volumes for the power of Protestant thought in two ways. Protestant thought causes many to answer the call to God. Protestant thought once ignited in opposition to the OHCAC takes on two forms…an anti-Catholic mindset or an anti-Catholic mindset with purpose of discovery and the latter in my opinion is what leads people like Hahn to the OHCAC. There is an unsettling in the mind of the latter that causes seeking rather than accepting the status quo of us and them.