The protestants are actually members of the Catholic Church !?

[KathleenGee]

That is why I encourage everyone wanting to better understand their own denominations’ roots to study online…www.calledtocommunion.com. Many former protestant ministers are coming on sharing their growth through study into the Catholic Church.

However, once they enter, people to people it is no different but the focus and reality is.

I think one issue I have with Protestants is that they dwell too much on the ones who had caused scandal, or listen to obviously very bias misrepresentation by so called faith teachers.

What they are missing out is being in the life of the Church among the faithful, the communion of saints, the vast theological and spiritual history which belongs to us as well as members of Christ’s Church. The Lord alone is the One who ‘owns’ in temporal terms, the Church. We become members, but there is not one single human being who personally owns anything of the Church.

 

[crazydays08]

wow knowing that he was a protestant makes me want to read it even more!

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[SteveVH]

I would want to be one-hundred percent before I ever joined, and obviously I am far from.

Are you 100% certain that where you are now is where you are suppose to be? Catholicism is something that one can continue to uncover for the rest of their lives. The only one you need to be 100% sure about is Jesus Christ. Then look at what he did. He started a Church and gave that Church incredible power and authority; the power to bind and loose; the power to forgive sins. The keys to the kingdom of heaven, however were given to Peter alone, and his successors. Only the Catholic Church can trace its succession back to Peter.

If you can find another Church that can validly lay claim to being this original Church then join it. For millions upon millions, that Church is the Catholic Church. Yes, the Eastern Orthodox certainly have valid apostolic succession but they are missing one the marks of the true Church; universality. Since the schism in 1054 A.D. they became nationalized (Greek Orthodox, Russion Orthodox, etc.) but they began as Catholic.

Pablope said earlier in this thread:

If you do no believe in the authority of the Pope…do you believe in the authority of your pastor…which is kind of…your pope in a sense?

But pablope was only trying to draw a contrast. Those that reject the authority of the Pope seem to place that authority in the hands of anyone that comes along and gets hired as a preacher. The question that was being asked is why does one reject the authority of the Pope and yet extend that very authority to their own pastor?

I agree that I still don’t fully understand the Pope or his office. What I am mostly trying to do is unearth the un-truths that have kept me from ever considering Catholocism. I was merely stating that I now see that the Pope is not invincible like I used to think Catholics believe.

Not sure what you mean by the word “invincible” but it is important that you understand that the Pope, as a man, is not “impeccable.” Our current Pope goes to confession every day because he is a sinner, like the rest of us. It is the Pope’s office that carries the gift of infallibility, along with the entire magisterium (bishops of the world). The Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit, acting through the Pope and the magisterium, just as the Scriptures are protected from error by the Holy Spirit acting through the authors of the various books of the Bible.

also the secret club thing came from the title of this thread, to a protestant it seems very “clubbish” because protestants are huge on allowing everyone to participate in every part of the church,

But think about what “participating in every part of the church” means to the majority of protestant faith traditions. It means sitting on a chair and listening to the opinion of the Protestant pastor and singing a song or two (or in some cases watching a rock concert, fog machines, flashing lights and all). You will not find such “openness” among the Protestant liturgical communities (Lutheran, Anglican, etc.). You must be in agreement with their doctrines and beliefs before you are allowed to participate. The same is true in the Catholic Church. If the Church, for instance, allowed all people to receive communion regardless of their understanding or belief, then it would be complicit in condemning those who do not recognize the body and blood of the Lord.

Eucharist is another area that really spoke to me that I never understood. Although I am not Catholoic, it truly is a shame that protestents don’t get to have that deeper, emotional level that Catholics do in communion.

It is important that you understand that, while the Eucharist can evoke strong emotions at times, this is not the purpose of the Eucharist. The Power is there; Christ is truly present, regardless of the emotional state of the one receiving. Think of it. God, the creator of the universe is hidden under the appearance of bread and wine so that we may consume him, that he may truly live and dwell within us. To give this greatest gift of God to one who does not believe would truly be an offense against God.

I’m sure I have looked like a crazy protestant with the questions and comments that I have made on this thread, but I seriously never understood the Catholic faith. I have had a few very important protestant mentors in my life that have guided me spiritually and they have all had very negative things to say about Catholicism. So I honestly said what was on my mind and what I have been taught. I have always wanted to ask these questions of a Catholic, but have never known one in a close enough relationship. So this forum has really helped me to understand. These forums are really helpful.

I commend you for seeking truth. Many seek a faith tradition because it fits what they wish to believe, rather than changing their lives to conform to the truth revealed to us by God through the Apostles. Remember, truth is truth, even if no one belileves it, and a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it.

 

[KathleenGee]

Good points, Steve.

The bottom line is that the Catholic Church has the full deposit of faith in Jesus Christ. We even name Christology a science.

The Church teaches us and nurtures us to grow deeper into the life of Christ, because Jesus Christ…not the ecclesiastics running it or the faithful of believers…Jesus Christ is the Life Source of the Church, not man.

One of the biggest hurdles for Protestants to overcome is to look beyond man, and interpretation, and to come to Christ…through those chosen by Him…but they are not an end in themselves.

We keep our eyes on Christ, we keep our heart and soul grounded in Him. We are always advised not to look too much on a person, even a priest…because all are human and all fail. Instead we are to come to the Church for Jesus Christ, to know the Truth of HIm, and to be nurtured in Him through the sacraments and enjoy and learn from the communion of saints who lived in many different eras and times and charisms…but always bearing the true fruit of Jesus Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

If we keep our eyes on Christ, then we are not pulled into hypocritical obsession with others’ sins and scandals which can in themselves cause us to either be false judges who we condemn them to hell, when only Christ can do that Who is perfect mercy and justice, or focusing on failings of others in position of ministry be the cause of us to lose our faith.

Do not put your trust in men but in God alone. If you do that, you will have feet like eagle’s wings and faith that can climb the Mountain of the Lord, Psalm 24.

Our goal is Jesus Christ, not our own self-righteousness.

 

[RyanBlack]

Yes, the Eastern Orthodox certainly have valid apostolic succession but they are missing one the marks of the true Church; universality. Since the schism in 1054 A.D. they became nationalized (Greek Orthodox, Russion Orthodox, etc.) but they began as Catholic.

I so tire of reading this bogus criticism. The Eastern Orthodox, though certainly smaller in numbers, are found around the world, like the Catholic Church, and like the Catholic Church, exist as a communion of particular Churches that share the same faith. Furthermore, those Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome, are also nationalized, like the Orthodox Churches. So any Catholic criticism that the Orthodox lack universality because they are nationalized is naive, if not hypocritical.

 

[pablope]

thanks pablope that looks like a really good book. I will definitely check it out.

Scott Hahn is a convert…he studies his way to the CC…here is a short version of his story…I hope you can learn from him and relate…and he has written a number of books…zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/sctcnv.html

I see what your saying about job, thats a very good point. I am really interested in new testament proof

 

[crazydays08]

SteveVH:

Quote:

But think about what “participating in every part of the church” means to the majority of protestant faith traditions. It means sitting on a chair and listening to the opinion of the Protestant pastor and singing a song or two (or in some cases watching a rock concert, fog machines, flashing lights and all).

It is important that you understand that, while the Eucharist can evoke strong emotions at times, this is not the purpose of the Eucharist. The Power is there; Christ is truly present, regardless of the emotional state of the one receiving.

dang steve! way to hit it home! you brought up some awesome points. you are very correct that church has become the routine of listening to the opinion of a pastor. I also like what you said about the Eucharist not just being for the emotional high. I came to this forum out of pure curiosity, but now that things make far more sense to me I could picture myself changing someday. but I need very thorough proof. its like telling teenagers to be responsible, they rarely listen and have to learn through experience. im the same way, I have to see the proof, look at both arguments, think about it for a long while, and then I can decide. I would obviously have to be able to at least back up my decision when all of my protestant friends and family come screaming lol

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[crazydays08]

pablope:

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazydays08

thanks pablope that looks like a really good book. I will definitely check it out.

Scott Hahn is a convert…he studies his way to the CC…here is a short version of his story…I hope you can learn from him and relate…and he has written a number of books… zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg…m1/sctcnv.html

Quote:

I see what your saying about job, thats a very good point. I am really interested in new testament proof

Crazy…the foundation of the NT is from the OT. Likewise, the foundation of the sacrament of confession is found in the OT…that is why I provided you that passage from Job.

If God commanded Eliphaz to go through Job to be forgiven…and since God is eternal and the same always…where does God say otherwise in the NT?

Here is another passage…
: 2Sam 12

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.â€

Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.â€

Question: Why did God have to send Nathan to David to confront him for his sin?

Here, King David admits his sin to Nathan, the prophet, and Nathan pronounces the absolution. This seems like a forerunner of the sacrament of confession, doesn’t it?

Another thing to think about…what kind of sin did David commit? And also, in that passage from Job, what was the offense of Eliphaz and friends against God?

wow thanks coptic for that link! I can’t wait to read through it. we had to stop at B&N again today and saw some of his books. I definitely plan on reading his stuff soon as im finished with my beginners guide lol.

to answer your questions, I know david’s sin was knockin up bathsheba and sentaancing her husband to imminent death, I know eliphaz and his friends gave job bad advice, I think they told job that God left him and he should give up or something, its been a while.

so these are great examples and I have a completely open mind even though I was taught that when Jesus came he changed the old way of doing things. this is a hard one to straighten out. my hang up is that for such big decision why didn’t Jesus say anything about it in the NT. I mean he could change his wording from ‘eat’ to ‘gnaw’ when he spoke to the 5000, wouldnt he have added an 'oh ya and don’t forget to confess to your local priest before partaking of the bread and wine. not only that but the 5000 couldn’t go to a priest at that point if they wanted to, the apostles were all with Jesus and the church wasn’t set up yet. whew a lot to think about and its getting late, I better quit before get too worked up to go to sleep.

coptic your stuff is great thanks for bringing it up

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[KathleenGee]

People must be feeling alot of bumps on their heads now…

feeling…

For Catholics, the Eucharist and our faith in God through the Church is not one so much of emotions…they come after most of the time…it is based on faith in the spirit of adoration.

Christ among us.

So we are more in the sense or posture of adoration at Mass, and contemplating Him among us, we spend more time thinking and pondering Him, and not so good at singing.

Ours is more quiet, reflective, adoring and cultivating and ours has developed to cultivate the use of reason…There is so so much in the Church that can feed us spiritually and intellectually and historically. We can learn so much about different peoples and cultures and faith expression. The Church is truly universal for all people and all time.

The greater reality is that Christ is physically ministering to us through His grace in the sacraments. You either believe or you don’t.

No room for subjective symbolism that causes people to wander.

Faith always has the condition of certitude, no waffling. Sacraments personify this certitude with ‘Amen!’

Emotions are fleeting and if you need to go to church to get pumped up, you are depending on the emotions and faith of another person and not on Christ Himself through grace. The Church is 2000 years old and very wise.

 

[crazydays08]

that was really good kathleen, thank you for that

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[pablope]

to answer your questions, I know david’s sin was knockin up bathsheba and sentaancing her husband to imminent death, I know eliphaz and his friends gave job bad advice, I think they told job that God left him and he should give up or something, its been a while.

Right…but what kinds of sins where they?

from 1john5…16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm

So which sin did David and Eliphaz commit…the sins that lead to death or not…as per 1John 5?

Now you see why Nathan had to be sent to David and God told Eliphaz to go through Job to be forgiven.

But then…what was the point of God’s actions?

so these are great examples and I have a completely open mind even though I was taught that when Jesus came he changed the old way of doing things.

Jesus did not come to change things…He came to make them perfect…to fulfill them…and gave us the sacraments…one of them being the sacrament of Confession.

John 20: 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

this is a hard one to straighten out. my hang up is that for such big decision why didn’t Jesus say anything about it in the NT.

Oh…He did say it…John 20: 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

You just have to unlock them…and you have started by throwing away your protestant glasses…and keeping an open mind.

Once you read Hahn’s story…you will see this is what happened to him. His understanding grew deeper.

 

[SteveVH]

I so tire of reading this bogus criticism. The Eastern Orthodox, though certainly smaller in numbers, are found around the world, like the Catholic Church, and like the Catholic Church, exist as a communion of particular Churches that share the same faith. Furthermore, those Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome, are also nationalized, like the Orthodox Churches.

So any Catholic criticism that the Orthodox lack universality because they are nationalized is naive, if not hypocritical.

Please accept my apology for offending you. As you said, there are those Eastern Catholic Churches that are in communion with Rome and at the same time are nationalized so I accept your response as a valid criticism. Could you please tell me with whom the Greek Orthodox, or Russian Orthodox, or Ruthenian Orthodox are in communion?

Thanks.

 

[crazydays08]

pablope:

Scott Hahn is a convert…he studies his way to the CC…here is a short version of his story…I hope you can learn from him and relate…and he has written a number of books… zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg…m1/sctcnv.html

Wow!! so I just finished reading Scott Hahn’s story from your link and I am shocked and amazed. I never took Catholic’s argument of sola scriptura seriously because of my protestant lenses, but it makes perfect sense while also being backed by scripture, well also the lack of, I should say. I am extremely excited to read his books. its also very scary though. wow. im amazed. I had no idea what I got myself into by joining this forum lol

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[RyanBlack]

Please accept my apology for offending you. As you said, there are those Eastern Catholic Churches that are in communion with Rome and at the same time are nationalized so I accept your response as a valid criticism. Could you please tell me with whom the Greek Orthodox, or Russian Orthodox, or Ruthenian Orthodox are in communion?

Thanks.

Thank you for your gracious apology, although I wouldn’t say I was offended. It’s more a matter of being tired of what seems to me to be a criticism that is not based in reality. If someone wants to offer the criticism that they lack something due to their not being in communion with Rome, then there may arise arguments about the extent to which not being in communion with Rome is a defect suffered by the Orthodox, but someone cannot argue against the reality that they are not in communion with Rome.

The various Eastern Orthodox Churches are in communion with each other,

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you for your gracious apology, although I wouldn’t say I was offended. It’s more a matter of being tired of what seems to me to be a criticism that is not based in reality. If someone wants to offer the criticism that they lack something due to their not being in communion with Rome, then there may arise arguments about the extent to which not being in communion with Rome is a defect suffered by the Orthodox, but someone cannot argue against the reality that they are not in communion with Rome.

Agreed.

The various Eastern Orthodox Churches are in communion with each other,

Is there one Patriarch under which they are united or do all Patriarchs carry the same weight? I guess what I am asking is how are the Eastern Orthodox Churches in communion with each other?

Thanks.

 

[PJM]

=crazydays08;10244924]

Wow!! so I just finished reading Scott Hahn’s story from your link and I am shocked and amazed. I never took Catholic’s argument of sola scriptura seriously because of my protestant lenses, but it makes perfect sense while also being backed by scripture, well also the lack of, I should say. I am extremely excited to read his books. its also very scary though. wow. im amazed. I had no idea what I got myself into by joining this forum lol

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TRUTH [a singular thing]; land ike a fine wine is a RARE Commodity in our world today were one often chooses to be on par with the God that Created them and keeps them alive.But when one finds it; OH! The joy to the Soul:thumbsup:

And yes my friend; this FORUM is a great place to discover it.

Ask and you will find; SEEK and it will be given to you!

The more specific your questions; th more specific are our replies.

May God Guide both you and us.

Welcome to the FORUM.

 

[RyanBlack]

Is there one Patriarch under which they are united or do all Patriarchs carry the same weight? I guess what I am asking is how are the Eastern Orthodox Churches in communion with each other?

Thanks.

I guess you could define the Eastern Orthodox as Ecumenical Patriarchate and the various churches in communion, although I’m not certain that the Eastern Orthodox would define themselves in quite that way. However, I’m certain that the Ecumenical Patriarch has no jurisdiction over the other Orthodox Churches. In terms of jurisdiction/authority, all Eastern Orthodox bishops are equal. The Ecumenical Patriarch has a position of primacy, but it is a primacy of honor, not a primacy of authority or power.

 

[SteveVH]

I guess you could define the Eastern Orthodox as Ecumenical Patriarchate and the various churches in communion, although I’m not certain that the Eastern Orthodox would define themselves in quite that way. However, I’m certain that the Ecumenical Patriarch has no jurisdiction over the other Orthodox Churches. In terms of jurisdiction/authority, all Eastern Orthodox bishops are equal. The Ecumenical Patriarch has a position of primacy, but it is a primacy of honor, not a primacy of authority or power.

Thanks.

 

[gus]

Hmm. So Lutherans are cafeteria catholics? I knew it!

I think our quota on cafeteria Catholics is full.
But I think there is a waiting list.