The Purpose of Marriage

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ThinkingSapien said:
I was already of the opinion that the good Catholic / bad Catholic dichotomy doesn’t get us anywhere as far as this discussion goes. It seems to be more of a distraction than a contribution as it doesn’t seem to do anything that I can see for the purpose of marriage discussion.
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Agreed. It’s for the Church hierarchy to judge who is and isn’t a good Catholic, not for laity.

All we can conclude from the repeated polls is that US Catholics are split on equal marriage and therefore on the purpose of marriage. Though one helpful aspect is that as they all use the same bible, this disproves the notion that it’s set in stone and only one interpretation is possible. 🙂
 
inocente said:
Agreed. It’s for the Church hierarchy to judge who is and isn’t a good Catholic, not for laity.
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Who says this?

We are commanded to judge, inocente. That’s what the Bible says.

Now, of course, this must be understood with some nuance. Judging whether someone is professing as a Catholic what is contrary to Catholicism–yes. We must do this.

Judging whether someone who is professing to be a Catholic is going to hell, well, even the Church hierarchy can’t do this. :nope:
 
PRmerger said:
Only insofar as it refutes inocente’s position that 6 out of 10 US Catholics support homosexual “marriage.”
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As in the numbers from the Gallop poll of the 2027 individuals interviewed over the phone (gallup.com/poll/163730/back-law-legalize-gay-marriage-states.aspx) from message #338? I don’t think it does, but okay.
PRmerger said:
If they can’t even articulate what the purpose of marriage is, as proclaimed by the CC, how can they disagree with the CC’s teaching?
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They people were being questioned on their own position of same sex marriage, not the position of their church or community on same sex marriage. It’s not necessary to know the position of the church or community to know what one’s own position is.
 
PRmerger said:
A good Catholic is someone who knows the faith, as articulated by the Magisterium, and gives religious assent to it.

A bad Catholic is someone who professes something contrary to the faith.

A lukewarm Catholic is someone who looks like this when asked to provide apologia for any particular teaching.
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I’m surrounded by Catholics here and none of them have the time to read the 2,865 paragraphs, let alone discuss them and decide whether they agree with them all. By your definition good Catholics need to have loads of leisure time, and chose to spend that leisure time book learning instead of helping feed the poor, etc. Don’t sound right.
 
ThinkingSapien said:
They people were being questioned on their own position of same sex marriage, not the position of their church or community on same sex marriage. It’s not necessary to know the position of the church or community to know what one’s own position is.
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Then they ought not identify as Catholic.

Again, if they were professing to be Protestant, then their divergence from their particular pastor’s doctrines would only be a participation in the Protestant paradigm of each man is his own pope.

However, when Catholics diverge from the teachings of the Church, they have divorced themselves from the Catholic faith.

It is like a husband who has left his wife to pursue his own interests saying, “I am a good husband!”
 
inocente said:
I’m surrounded by Catholics here and none of them have the time to read the 2,865 paragraphs, let alone discuss them and decide whether they agree with them all. By your definition good Catholics need to have loads of leisure time, and chose to spend that leisure time book learning instead of helping feed the poor, etc. Don’t sound right.
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By my definition a good Catholic is able to articulate Catholic teaching and give religious assent to it.

Those 6 out of 10 US Catholics wouldn’t be able to articulate even what the Immaculate Conception is.

Those folks are not representative of Catholics. They are husbands who have strayed from their wives but want to still say that they are good husbands.
 
PRmerger said:
I’m not sure why you think that illiterate means unintelligent and unable to learn.
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I don’t. But don’t you agree that serfs didn’t have all the leisure time needed to take self-improvement classes?
*On the fact that it is not a binding contract, we are agreed.
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As far as it not even being essential reading, that’s an odd conclusion to draw from CCC 12. It appears to be a non-sequitur to me. 🤷*
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If the authors had meant essential they’d have said so.
 
inocente said:
I don’t. But don’t you agree that serfs didn’t have all the leisure time needed to take self-improvement classes?
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They knew their faith, inocente.

That’s why Catholics put so much emphasis on the Word of God being transmitted through Sacred Tradition.

The ability to read is not required to have a literacy of the Faith. At least, if you are a Catholic.
 
inocente said:
I wonder how people knew God before the internet?
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Through Sacred Tradition. 🙂
No, it’s nothing like that difficult, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
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Amen!

And thank you, Catholic Church, for declaring that these are indeed the words of Christ!

We would not know it any other way!
 
PRmerger said:
Who says this?

We are commanded to judge, inocente. That’s what the Bible says.

Now, of course, this must be understood with some nuance. Judging whether someone is professing as a Catholic what is contrary to Catholicism–yes. We must do this.
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Yikes, sounds like a recipe for mayhem, please cite the CCC paragraph which commands you to judge your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Meanwhile, over in Romans 14, Paul teaches this:

*Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.*
 
PRmerger said:
They knew their faith, inocente.

That’s why Catholics put so much emphasis on the Word of God being transmitted through Sacred Tradition.

The ability to read is not required to have a literacy of the Faith. At least, if you are a Catholic.
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Good, away with book learning. However, we’ve now drifted so far off-topic that we’ll need rescuing before we disappear off the edge of the thread.
 
inocente said:
In real life.
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Ok.

I have no doubt that 6 out of 10 of the Catholics in Spain have not read the CCC either. Nor could 6 out of 10 of them articulate with any lucidity why the CC is against homosexual “marriage.”

'Tis a sad testament of the state of Catholics. :sad_yes:
 
inocente said:
Good, away with book learning.
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There is no need to create a false dichotomy, inocente.

What makes Catholicism so formidable to argue against is that the paradigm is usually both/and. Not either/or.

That’s why the CCC declares that we need both Sacred Tradition AND Sacred Scripture.
 
inocente said:
Yikes, sounds like a recipe for mayhem, please cite the CCC paragraph which commands you to judge your brothers and sisters in Christ.
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I’ll do better than that. I’ll cite the Word of God.

See John 7:24.
 
inocente said:
Meanwhile, over in Romans 14, Paul teaches this:

*Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”

So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.*
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Amen!
 
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