The Purpose of Marriage

[PRmerger]

If God did not prohibit the practice in His law, then the practice is permitted.

It is permitted by the culture. but one cannot conclude that the absence of any law prohibiting polygamy by God is to be interpreted as permission to engage in the practice.

And it would appear that the kings of the OT who engaged in polygamy were punished for their behavior.

Let me ask this way, does God permit Jews to eat beef according to the Law?

There is no Jewish law that addresses whether God permitted Jews to eat beef.

So one could not say, based on the Law, what God’s opinion is of Jews eating beef.

 

[PRmerger]

If you say that the Church is Christ, does that imply that the Church is God?

So, logically, the Church is God?

I think your logic is flawed here mek.

You seem to be positing this syllogism: The Church is the Body of Christ; Christ is God. Therefore the Church is God.

However, while the form of the syllogism is valid, (If A = B, and B = C, then A = C) the syllogism is fallacious because it is based on an equivocation.

The equivocation occurs with the word “God”. When we say Christ is God, we mean the Incarnate Word. Here, God means “God the Son”.

However, when you say, “The Church is God”, here you mean Triune Godhead.

And, of course, we do not believe that the Church is the Triune Godhead.

So your conclusion is false because you equivocate with the use of the word “God”.

 

[josh987654321]

Josh - unless he appeared to you personally, as he did to the disciples, then that question is asked of you through the Church. So, the Catholic Church is asking you “Who do you say Jesus is?”

Jesus is asking us this, not the Church, because the Church say’s Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah.

Jesus has not appeared to me personally, but I have experienced Christ Crucified through the OHCAC.

What is OHCAC?

Okay – I don’t have any disagreement here. But, just to be clear, what is your understanding of the Primacy of Peter?

**Matthew 16:17

17 Jesus told him:

Simon, son of Jonah, you are blessed! You didn’t discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven. 18 So I will call you Peter, which means “a rock.” On this rock I will build my church, and death itself will not have any power over it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and God in heaven will allow whatever you allow on earth. But he will not allow anything that you don’t allow.**

Josh - what is the purpose of a Church?

They are custodians of what was handed down to them in order to share with us.

What is the purpose of evangelism?

To preach the good news (Gospels).

Would you know Christ without the evangel?

Probably not, but I know him through the Gospels and teachings of the CC, but not because the CC tells me so.

You continue to divide/separate Christ from His Body (the Church). This is a fruitless exercise…

I’m not trying to divide him from the Church.

But you do see the problem with your paradigm, yes?

Saying that you know something is theopneustos because it has miracles and signs opens up a whole bunch of religious texts as being the Word of God.

Yes, I see a problem with that paradigm, I don’t have as much education as you in such areas and am most likely using incorrect terminology trying to explain it to you, but for instance, when I read the Gospels, especially the Beatitudes (sermon on the mount), I know that it is the inspired word of God, The fact that the CC tells me this is far from my mind. I don’t need the CC to tell me the Gospels are the inspired Word of God.

Yes. And that quote comes from St. Augustine, and is quoted in our Catechism, josh.

" Indeed, I would not believe the gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so."–St. Augustine.

He would not believe the things that are said and done in the Gospels if the CC didn’t tell him to do so? or he wouldn’t believe it was the inspired Word of God, that Jesus was the truth the way and the life if the CC didn’t tell him to do so?

So if I present a list of random quotes–some from the Bible, some from other sources–you’d be able to tell us (without consulting Father Google ) which ones are theopneustos and which ones are not? Just based on how your spirit responds to these quotes?

**John 4:39-42

39 A lot of Samaritans in that town put their faith in Jesus because the woman had said, “This man told me everything I have ever done.” 40 They came and asked him to stay in their town, and he stayed on for two days.

41 Many more Samaritans put their faith in Jesus because of what they heard him say. 42 They told the woman, “We no longer have faith in Jesus just because of what you told us. We have heard him ourselves, and we are certain that he is the Savior of the world!” **

What Authroity did those other Samaritans use to say “We no longer have faith in Jesus because of what you told us, We have heard him ourselves, and we are certain that he is the Savior of the World?”

**John 14:4-7

4 You know the way to where I am going.”

5 Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t even know where you are going! How can we know the way?”

6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life!” Jesus answered. “Without me, no one can go to the Father. 7 If you had known me, you would have known the Father. But from now on, you do know him, and you have seen him.” **

Jesus is the way the truth and the life, the CC does not say that it is the way the truth and the life, the CC instead guides/leads us to the way the truth and the life.

Would you know/recognise the truth, the way and the life, without the authority of the CC telling you?

I don’t think you’re understanding the concept. You’re using Gospels here to mean: the teachings of the good news of revelation. And when you accept the message of the good news, you accept the Church.

I absolutely agree with this paradigm. If by Gospels you mean “good news of God’s revelation”.

Exactly, but it’s not because the CC tells me that Jesus is the way the truth and the life, it’s not because the CC tells me so, in that way it’s backwards, because it’s accepting the Church before accepting the good news, the CC brings us the good news, but we must accept that news before we accept the Church, not accept the Church and only than accept the teachings because we have already accepted the Church and the Church tells us to.

However, I am using Gospels here to mean: the actual books/letters.

You would have no idea which of the over 400 ancient Christian books/letters are the Word of God and which are not.

You need the Catholic Church to tell you this.

There is NO OTHER WAY, save by submitting to the authority of the CC.

So how does the Catholic Church determine that?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[mek42]

It is permitted by the culture. but one cannot conclude that the absence of any law prohibiting polygamy by God is to be interpreted as permission to engage in the practice.

And it would appear that the kings of the OT who engaged in polygamy were punished for their behavior.

There is no Jewish law that addresses whether God permitted Jews to eat beef.

So one could not say, based on the Law, what God’s opinion is of Jews eating beef.

And here all these years I thought Hebrew National hotdogs were kosher. Apparently we don’t know if they are or not.

May I ask why you are here in this forum? There is no law commanding you to be, is there?

 

[PRmerger]

And here all these years I thought Hebrew National hotdogs were kosher. Apparently we don’t know if they are or not.

Mmmm! Those are my fave!

Now, if you could cite the Jewish law that states what God believes about beef, that would be helpful.

May I ask why you are here in this forum? There is no law commanding you to be, is there?

I don’t understand your point here, mek.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, I see a problem with that paradigm, I don’t have as much education as you in such areas and am most likely using incorrect terminology trying to explain it to you, but for instance, when I read the Gospels, especially the Beatitudes (sermon on the mount), I know that it is the inspired word of God, The fact that the CC tells me this is far from my mind. I don’t need the CC to tell me the Gospels are the inspired Word of God.

Josh, you absolutely DO need the CC to tell you the Gospels are the inspired Word of God.

I’m going to present these 3 quotes:

1. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have favored; not (the path) of those who earn Your anger nor of those who go astray.
2. My breath is offensive to my wife
3. I will go and do what the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them

Can you guess which one of them is theopneustos, and which ones are not?

 

[PRmerger]

He would not believe the things that are said and done in the Gospels if the CC didn’t tell him to do so? or he wouldn’t believe it was the inspired Word of God, that Jesus was the truth the way and the life if the CC didn’t tell him to do so?

Right.

Did you know, Josh, that there is an ancient Christian text that details the life of Jesus and says that as a child he pushed a boy off a roof, the boy died, and Jesus was so despondent that he brought this boy back to life?

It is ONLY because of the CC that we know that this is apocryphal.

You would not know it any other way. I mean, if it was part of the Gospel of Mark, then you would have to believe it actually happened. How do you know it didn’t? Because the CC told you so!

 

[PRmerger]

So how does the Catholic Church determine that?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Through Sacred Tradition. And through the charism of infallibility, which was given ONLY to the CC.

 

[josh987654321]

Josh, you absolutely DO need the CC to tell you the Gospels are the inspired Word of God.

I’m going to present these 3 quotes:

1. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have favored; not (the path) of those who earn Your anger nor of those who go astray.
2. My breath is offensive to my wife
3. I will go and do what the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them

Can you guess which one of them is theopneustos, and which ones are not?

Do any of those three do anything for your soul?

Say you added -

1. God Blesses those who are merciful, they shall be treated with mercy.

Teachings of love and mercy however, does do much for ones soul.

What Authority does the CC have to tell you that the above is the inspired word of God? Do you believe it because the CC tells you so? or do you recognise it as truth when you read/hear it?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[PRmerger]

Do any of those three do anything for your soul?

Say you added -

1. God Blesses those who are merciful, they shall be treated with mercy.

Teachings of love and mercy however, does do much for ones soul.

What Authority does the CC have to tell you that the above is the inspired word of God? Do you believe it because the CC tells you so? or do you recognise it as truth when you read/hear it?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Josh, I think that I must bow out of discussions with you It appears that you are not capable of understanding how I present things. And I certainly cannot follow, at all, your points, so it is best that we part.

I will simply end my discourse with you with this note: saying that you know what’s the inspired Word of God based on what it “does for your soul” is an odd criterion. It is, indeed, what Mormons use to say that they know their text, the Book of Mormon, is inspired.

You now are in the realm of accepting what you want, and rejecting what you want…

a very, very treacherous position to hold. You have created a scripture made in your own image. Not God’s.

 

[Rence]

Right.

Did you know, Josh, that there is an ancient Christian text that details the life of Jesus and says that as a child he pushed a boy off a roof, the boy died, and Jesus was so despondent that he brought this boy back to life?

Where is this text? Is it available for the public to read? Have you seen it or read it?

 

[PRmerger]

Where is this text? Is it available for the public to read? Have you seen it or read it?

It is the Gospel of Thomas and I have read the excerpt I described.

 

[stewstew03]

Jesus is asking us this, not the Church, because the Church say’s Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah.

How do you know Jesus is asking you this? Oh, through the Church.

What is OHCAC?

One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

Probably not, but I know him through the Gospels and teachings of the CC, but not because the CC tells me so.

You know him through the Gospels that the Church told you were inspired.
Can you know Jesus without the Church?

 

[josh987654321]

Josh, I think that I must bow out of discussions with you It appears that you are not capable of understanding how I present things. And I certainly cannot follow, at all, your points, so it is best that we part.

I will simply end my discourse with you with this note: saying that you know what’s the inspired Word of God based on what it “does for your soul” is an odd criterion. It is, indeed, what Mormons use to say that they know their text, the Book of Mormon, is inspired.

You now are in the realm of accepting what you want, and rejecting what you want…

a very, very treacherous position to hold. You have created a scripture made in your own image. Not God’s.

Could you provide me with some links where I can read up on some of this stuff please PRmerger?, because I don’t how to explain it to you, you are probably right in what you say, but for example, Do you think those who believe in the book of Mormon believe in it because the Mormon Church told them it was inspired?

If the Catholic Church told me that the Gospels were not Inspired or that Jesus was only a prophet and not the Son of God or the Eucharist was just a symbol etc, than I would not be Catholic, I’m not a Catholic and that’s why I believe the Gospels are the inspired word of God (because the CC tells me so) I have read the Gospels given to us and preached to us by the CC and I believe they are the inspired word of God, thus why I am Catholic.

Why do you think Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and Hinduists convert to Christianity? They don’t have the authority of their faith telling them that the Gospels are the inspired word of God.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

You know him through the Gospels that the Church told you were inspired.

Absolutely. I know the Gospels because the CC had preached them to me and said it was the inspired word of God, but I do not believe the Gospels are the inspired word of God simply because the CC told me.

Can you know Jesus without the Church?

Probably not.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[inocente]

She says she does.

Who are you to judge her and say that she can’t join your church and still profess her white supremacist dogmas? That seems to be exactly contrary to what you have stated earlier that all are welcome as long as they profess Jesus as savior.

What you are doing, in excluding a white supremacist for her beliefs is, well, being very Catholic in stating that there are indeed some truths to which you must assent in order to align yourself with Christ.

It would appear that your church does indeed have some doctrines besides professing Jesus as savior by which someone must align herself in order to be a member?

As I already said, by all means call knowing Jesus a doctrine if you want, we don’t.

You (PR, not Catholics) sound somewhat legalistic, concerned more for the letter of the law than it’s spirit, we are the opposite.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Where is this text? Is it available for the public to read? Have you seen it or read it?

It’s one of the Gnostic Gospels. I’ve got a couple of printed copies of them myself. You may be able to find a copy online among the other documents that were not included in the bible. I got mine on clearance at a local book store. It’s got some interesting stories, like the one where Jesus commands a boy to wither up after hurting some puddles of water, kills a boy for brushing up against him, or cast blindness onto a group of people. Needless to say it doesn’t quite fit the images of Jesus promoted today.

 

[inocente]

It’s one of the Gnostic Gospels. I’ve got a couple of printed copies of them myself. You may be able to find a copy online among the other documents that were not included in the bible. I got mine on clearance at a local book store. It’s got some interesting stories, like the one where Jesus commands a boy to wither up after hurting some puddles of water, kills a boy for brushing up against him, or cast blindness onto a group of people. Needless to say it doesn’t quite fit the images of Jesus promoted today.

gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

 

[Brendan_64]

It’s got some interesting stories, like the one where Jesus commands a boy to wither up after hurting some puddles of water, kills a boy for brushing up against him, or cast blindness onto a group of people. Needless to say it doesn’t quite fit the images of Jesus promoted today.

And wasn’t considered by the Church fathers to be valid, hence (like various other such documents) was rejected as unreliable, and wasn’t included in the canon in 367 AD. It’s got nothing to do with it not fitting any image of Jesus as promoted today, it was rejected by the early Church (otherwise it would have been included as part of the established canon of the Bible).

 

[josh987654321]

Right.

Did you know, Josh, that there is an ancient Christian text that details the life of Jesus and says that as a child he pushed a boy off a roof, the boy died, and Jesus was so despondent that he brought this boy back to life?

It is ONLY because of the CC that we know that this is apocryphal.

You would not know it any other way. I mean, if it was part of the Gospel of Mark, then you would have to believe it actually happened. How do you know it didn’t? Because the CC told you so!

I absolutely agree. However I think there is a difference between ‘accuracy’ and belief that it is ‘the Inspired word of God.’

I believe that the text your talking about is inaccurate, as the CC at the time would have been able to determine that and passed on through generation after generation so that it is able to tell us today that those texts are in fact inaccurate/false.

I’m just saying, that when you read the Gospels, you can’t honestly tell me that you believe it to be the inspired word of God, simply because the Catholic Church tells you so. If you were not raised Christian, how would you know? and yet many still convert to Christianity and Catholicism today and I assure you it’s not “because the CC tells me so.”

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh