C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
mek
**
What other species in the natural world exchange vows? **
Elaborate?
**
What other species in the natural world exchange vows? **
Elaborate?
- Status
M
mek42
Guest
A claim was made that marriage was natural.mek
**
What other species in the natural world exchange vows? **
Elaborate?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
mek
**A claim was made that marriage was natural. **
Help me understand you. Are you saying that marriage is unnatural?
If so, how do you explain that there is no time in history when humans have not practiced it in one form or another?
**A claim was made that marriage was natural. **
Help me understand you. Are you saying that marriage is unnatural?
If so, how do you explain that there is no time in history when humans have not practiced it in one form or another?
M
mek42
Guest
Perhaps a definition of natural as is being used in this context might clear things up for both of us.
T
tonyrey
Guest
T
tonyrey
Guest
If you compromise you believe in the principle of choosing the greater good (or the lesser evil) - which still amounts to doing what you believe is right…Someone with a strong sense of morals likely would say yes; someone with comparatively weaker morals, which is probably the majority of us, would make a distinction between the “lesser forms” of immorality that he was willing to compromise on, and the “greater forms” of immorality on which he wasn’t.
For example, there are probably more Christians in the world, even, who are willing to compromise on “do not tell a lie” as opposed to “do not kill or rape.” The principle of “do not tell a lie” has a gray area; if you are a salesman, you may feel pressured to bend the truth or withhold unfavorable information, in order to better make a living (as you see it). One might say to oneself, “in a perfect world, I wouldn’t have to ever compromise my values.” Stealing, on the other hand, might be a non-negotiable.
I think, in my own mind, I belong more to the “majority” than the minority of exceptionally conscientious individuals.
But again, differences in perspective regarding what forms of behavior have a moral significance, and what forms do not, means that each of us is an immoralist in the eyes of someone else. A Christian might believe that one should always do the right thing, yet a Muslim who witnesses him guzzling a beer might seem him as someone with very loose morals. A Jew might might find it hard to describe a Christian who he’s seen savoring a bacon cheeseburger, or sucking the meat of a shrimp out of its shell, as being among the “most moral individuals I know.” A Jew would probably feel the same way about a individual with tatoos all over her body, given that they believe there is a divine injunction against it. Hindus may not see Americans as particularly civilized, given the ubiquity of beef in the American diet.
Just so, someone in a same sex relationship – or a pre-marital sexual relationship – may not appear to have much moral fiber, in the eyes of a Christian. Yet that same non-Christian individual might view the Christian – who eats meat; who supports violence in the name of self-defense, whether politically or personally — as the one lacking in morals, even though that Christian may be able to say, “I strive never to do anything I truly believed was wrong, and I’ve adopted this as the principle of my entire life.” And the non-Christian vegan pacifist fornicator might agree, and be able to say that same thing
I
inocente
Guest
Equal marriage is defined as same-sex marriage or as a reminder in any marriage that the partners should treat each other as equals, which they don’t in many dysfunctional marriages.
You might want to think twice before calling all opposite-sex marriages natural (is it natural where one partner abuses the other?). In any case natural is defined as “from nature; not artificial or involving anything made or caused by people” so no marriages are natural.
Equal marriage is now business as usual, today’s news for instance:
*WASHINGTON — Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg will officiate at a same-sex wedding this weekend in what is believed to be a first for a member of the nation’s highest court.
Ginsburg will officiate Saturday at the marriage of Kennedy Center President Michael Kaiser and John Roberts, a government economist.
‘‘Michael Kaiser is a friend and someone I much admire,’’ Ginsburg said in a written statement Friday. ‘‘That is why I am officiating at his wedding.’’
The private ceremony will take place at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, a national memorial to President John F. Kennedy. The 80-year-old Ginsburg, an opera lover, is a frequent guest at the center. - bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2013/08/30/ruth-bader-ginsburg-officiate-same-sex-wedding/5xwLrwFlbgXRyPQjluxJAM/story.html*
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
inocente
**WASHINGTON — Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg will officiate at a same-sex wedding this weekend in what is believed to be a first for a member of the nation’s highest court.
Ginsburg will officiate Saturday at the marriage of Kennedy Center President Michael Kaiser and John Roberts, a government economist.
‘‘Michael Kaiser is a friend and someone I much admire,’’ Ginsburg said in a written statement Friday. ‘‘That is why I am officiating at his wedding.’’
The private ceremony will take place at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, a national memorial to President John F. Kennedy. The 80-year-old Ginsburg, an opera lover, is a frequent guest at the center. - bostonglobe.com/news/nati…JAM/story.html**
Not sure why you posted this. Insanity is insanity. Hitler’s attendance at the dedication ceremony for the Nietzsche Archives was not an indication that either he or Nietzsche were the least bit sane.
**WASHINGTON — Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg will officiate at a same-sex wedding this weekend in what is believed to be a first for a member of the nation’s highest court.
Ginsburg will officiate Saturday at the marriage of Kennedy Center President Michael Kaiser and John Roberts, a government economist.
‘‘Michael Kaiser is a friend and someone I much admire,’’ Ginsburg said in a written statement Friday. ‘‘That is why I am officiating at his wedding.’’
The private ceremony will take place at the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, a national memorial to President John F. Kennedy. The 80-year-old Ginsburg, an opera lover, is a frequent guest at the center. - bostonglobe.com/news/nati…JAM/story.html**
Not sure why you posted this. Insanity is insanity. Hitler’s attendance at the dedication ceremony for the Nietzsche Archives was not an indication that either he or Nietzsche were the least bit sane.
I
inocente
Guest
Her position as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States might indicate she is not insane, just as her surname could just be a clue that she’s not a neo-Nazi.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
inocente
**
Her position as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States might indicate she is not insane, just as her surname could just be a clue that she’s not a neo-Nazi.**
So was Hitler’s position as absolute ruler of Germany proof that he was not insane?
I can tell you were born yesterday, because if you were born 70 years ago you would have no problem acknowledging that same-sex marriage is a form of social insanity.
**
Her position as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States might indicate she is not insane, just as her surname could just be a clue that she’s not a neo-Nazi.**
So was Hitler’s position as absolute ruler of Germany proof that he was not insane?
I can tell you were born yesterday, because if you were born 70 years ago you would have no problem acknowledging that same-sex marriage is a form of social insanity.
T
tonyrey
Guest
It would certainly lead to extinction if it became the fashion!inocente
**
Her position as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States might indicate she is not insane, just as her surname could just be a clue that she’s not a neo-Nazi.**
So was Hitler’s position as absolute ruler of Germany proof that he was not insane?
I can tell you were born yesterday, because if you were born 70 years ago you would have no problem acknowledging that same-sex marriage is a form of social insanity.
T
ThinkingSapien
Guest
I can’t answer for him, so I don’t know if it helps, but in the discussions and arguments I’ve seen centered on “natural” law the word “natural” appears to be a label for attributes that are immutable and inbuilt and the purposes for these attributes. Of course the agent that had ascribed the purpose would be God.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Thinking
**Of course the agent that had ascribed the purpose would be God. **
For sure! “Go forth and multiply.”
tonyrey
**It would certainly lead to extinction if it became the fashion! **
Fortunately, sodomy is too absurd (and in many cases too painful) to become universal to the point of extinction.
**Of course the agent that had ascribed the purpose would be God. **
For sure! “Go forth and multiply.”
tonyrey
**It would certainly lead to extinction if it became the fashion! **
Fortunately, sodomy is too absurd (and in many cases too painful) to become universal to the point of extinction.
M
Mystic_Aviator
Guest
Two random thoughts:
First, “Matrimony” if you look at the meaning of the word in Latin is matri- and -mony, which is about the Motherhood State, or being in the state of being a mother. Thus, childbearing is intrinsically wrapped up in the purposes or matrimony.
Secondly, a thought from yesteryear:
Cardinal Patrick Hayes in a Christmas pastoral letter sent to his people in New York to be read from the pulpit on Sunday December 18, 1921:
“Heinous is the sin committed against the creative act of God, Who through the marriage contract invites man and woman to co-operate with Him in the propagation of the human family. To take life after its inception is a horrible crime; but to prevent human life the Creator is about to bring into being is satanic. In the first instance, the body is killed, while the soul lives on: in the latter, not only a body but an immortal soul is denied existence in time and in eternity. It has been reserved to our day to see advocated the legalizing of such a diabolical thing.”
First, “Matrimony” if you look at the meaning of the word in Latin is matri- and -mony, which is about the Motherhood State, or being in the state of being a mother. Thus, childbearing is intrinsically wrapped up in the purposes or matrimony.
Secondly, a thought from yesteryear:
Cardinal Patrick Hayes in a Christmas pastoral letter sent to his people in New York to be read from the pulpit on Sunday December 18, 1921:
“Heinous is the sin committed against the creative act of God, Who through the marriage contract invites man and woman to co-operate with Him in the propagation of the human family. To take life after its inception is a horrible crime; but to prevent human life the Creator is about to bring into being is satanic. In the first instance, the body is killed, while the soul lives on: in the latter, not only a body but an immortal soul is denied existence in time and in eternity. It has been reserved to our day to see advocated the legalizing of such a diabolical thing.”
I
inocente
Guest
So not only are you likening an insane Nazi to a Jewish Justice of the Supreme Court, you’re ignoring that she was born 80 years ago. :whacky: All this information was in the quote, the quote you even repeated.**
Her position as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States might indicate she is not insane, just as her surname could just be a clue that she’s not a neo-Nazi.**
So was Hitler’s position as absolute ruler of Germany proof that he was not insane?
I can tell you were born yesterday, because if you were born 70 years ago you would have no problem acknowledging that same-sex marriage is a form of social insanity.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
inocente
**So not only are you likening an insane Nazi to a Jewish Justice of the Supreme Court, you’re ignoring that she was born 80 years ago. All this information was in the quote, the quote you even repeated. **
When some Justices of the Supreme Court get very old, they sometimes are reborn … as if they were born yesterday. A Jewish Justice of the Supreme Court has no special prerogatives that any other member does not have. A Jewish Justice ought to be as sane as any other member of the Court. Do you see any other member of the Court conducting same-sex marital services? That you, a Baptist, defend this, is simply incredible. Not only do you attack St. Paul. You defend the devil’s own work? Enough of these shameful antics.
**So not only are you likening an insane Nazi to a Jewish Justice of the Supreme Court, you’re ignoring that she was born 80 years ago. All this information was in the quote, the quote you even repeated. **
When some Justices of the Supreme Court get very old, they sometimes are reborn … as if they were born yesterday. A Jewish Justice of the Supreme Court has no special prerogatives that any other member does not have. A Jewish Justice ought to be as sane as any other member of the Court. Do you see any other member of the Court conducting same-sex marital services? That you, a Baptist, defend this, is simply incredible. Not only do you attack St. Paul. You defend the devil’s own work? Enough of these shameful antics.
I
inocente
Guest
She is only four years older than the Pope.
The Court voted 5-4 to strike down DOMA, so besides her there are four other Justices who I guess you are also calling mad demented neo-Nazis.
Without any cause or evidence you not only falsely accuse a Supreme Court Justice of being an insane and demented neo-Nazi, you also falsely accuse me of attacking St Paul and defending the devil’s own work.That you, a Baptist, defend this, is simply incredible. Not only do you attack St. Paul. You defend the devil’s own work? Enough of these shameful antics.
A number of Catholics support equal marriage. They and other ordinary Christians will not be won over by falsehoods and fanatical rants, quite the opposite.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
inocente
**
Without any cause or evidence you not only falsely accuse a Supreme Court Justice of being an insane and demented neo-Nazi, you also falsely accuse me of attacking St Paul and defending the devil’s own work.**
Do you agree with this by St. Paul?
Romans 1:18-32:
“The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”
Do you approve of the practice of sodomy?
Do you approve of the legalization of same-sex marriage, which is a legal license for sodomy?
Show me a Baptist publication that does.
The Court voted 5-4 to strike down DOMA, so besides her there are four other Justices who I guess you are also calling mad demented neo-Nazis.
The Court’s decision regarding DOMA was not an endorsement of sodomy. Since marriage laws have always been the province of the State governments, not the Federal, it was right that DOMA should be struck down as a Federal law. The Courts did not strike down the rights of States to legislate against same-sex marriage.
Learn some history.
**
Without any cause or evidence you not only falsely accuse a Supreme Court Justice of being an insane and demented neo-Nazi, you also falsely accuse me of attacking St Paul and defending the devil’s own work.**
Do you agree with this by St. Paul?
Romans 1:18-32:
“The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”
Do you approve of the practice of sodomy?
Do you approve of the legalization of same-sex marriage, which is a legal license for sodomy?
Show me a Baptist publication that does.
The Court voted 5-4 to strike down DOMA, so besides her there are four other Justices who I guess you are also calling mad demented neo-Nazis.
The Court’s decision regarding DOMA was not an endorsement of sodomy. Since marriage laws have always been the province of the State governments, not the Federal, it was right that DOMA should be struck down as a Federal law. The Courts did not strike down the rights of States to legislate against same-sex marriage.
Learn some history.
I
inocente
Guest
No, you can’t fling false accusations around and then expect those you falsely accused to retrospectively answer your ridiculous trumped-up charges.Do you agree with this by St. Paul?
Romans 1:18-32:
“The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper. They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents. They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”
Do you approve of the practice of sodomy?
Do you approve of the legalization of same-sex marriage, which is a legal license for sodomy?
Show me a Baptist publication that does.
Read what Paul says about slanderers (scandalmongers) in the very passage you yourself quoted. It’s against the ten commandments to give false testimony against your neighbor. But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. - 1 Peter 3
Calm yourself or you’ll do yourself a mischief. Deep breaths. There there.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
**inocente
No, you can’t fling false accusations around and then expect those you falsely accused to retrospectively answer your ridiculous trumped-up charges.**
As always, you dodge the questions because the answers you would truthfully give would show that your alliance is not with St. Paul.
Do you or do you not agree with St. Paul?
You cannot say, “I agree with St. Paul that sodomy is evil.” Can you?
Take a long pause and a deep breath before you answer.
By refusing to answer the question, you will have clearly answered it.
Still waiting to hear about a Baptist publication that defends same-sex marriage.
No, you can’t fling false accusations around and then expect those you falsely accused to retrospectively answer your ridiculous trumped-up charges.**
As always, you dodge the questions because the answers you would truthfully give would show that your alliance is not with St. Paul.
Do you or do you not agree with St. Paul?
You cannot say, “I agree with St. Paul that sodomy is evil.” Can you?
Take a long pause and a deep breath before you answer.
By refusing to answer the question, you will have clearly answered it.
Still waiting to hear about a Baptist publication that defends same-sex marriage.
- Status