The question of Hell (or a Hell of a question)

[CandideWest]

i’ll just respond to your last points.

1. you see, you are changing the idea again. you cannot just leave it at the point where empathy cannot exist in a state without suffering. you must colour it with the extra “we just don’t care”. it is not a question of caring or not it is the fact that some things don’t exist in an eternal heaven; like death or illness, for example.

Well that’s a half truth isn’t it. Sure there isn’t any suffering in heaven, but there is an enormous amount going on in hell. That is after all the subject of discussion here. To say that people in heaven have no use for empathy because there is nobody suffering in heaven is like saying that I have no need for it because there’s nobody suffering in my house.

I can and do still care about others and feel hurt by their suffering. All the more so when they are people I love.

So your point here is nothing more than a bit of slight of hand, dodging the thrust of the discussion. Again as far as I can see, if you are in heaven and someone you love is suffering immensely in hell then the options are:

1. You don’t know
2. You don’t care
3. Heaven is a place of unending misery for you

1. and there you go again. we can see everything we want or go anywhere we want in heaven including seeing earth and all its inhabitants. and if we did not give two figs for the people suffering on earth we would not, as catholicism teaches, be praying to God for those in need on earth.

you see ‘rape and torture and all manner of suffering’ every day on the news. yet, you still go on vacation and enjoy yourself, knowing all the while that there are people experiencing ‘rape and torture and all manner of suffering’ in the world.

you are able to live and enjoy yourself and your life at the same time as suffering happens to other people. like the saints in heaven. the only difference i can see is that those in heaven can work non-stop to help people on earth, while we on earth must stop and attend to other things too, including vacations, etc.

Yes, and I feel pain for those I know to be suffering. It makes me unhappy. Indeed the other day I watched a report of cruelty which made me feel physically sick.

But I could not have such a reaction if I were in heaven of course, indeed it would not disturb my perfect happiness in the slightest. Hence no empathy.

1. we will agree when you leave my argument as it stands and not add colour to it.

I have not “coloured” anything. You imply acceptance of an option to get off the horns of the argument and then refuse to accept the consequences thereof.

1. yes. because even heaven is not the final state of souls. according to catholicism the souls and their bodies will be reunited at the end of time and a new heavens and earth will be made.

Interesting, and is there a purpose after that?

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Well that’s a half truth isn’t it. Sure there isn’t any suffering in heaven, but there is an enormous amount going on in hell. That is after all the subject of discussion here. To say that people in heaven have no use for empathy because there is nobody suffering in heaven is like saying that I have no need for it because there’s nobody suffering in my house.

I can and do still care about others and feel hurt by their suffering. All the more so when they are people I love.

So your point here is nothing more than a bit of slight of hand, dodging the thrust of the discussion. Again as far as I can see, if you are in heaven and someone you love is suffering immensely in hell then the options are:

1. You don’t know
2. You don’t care
3. Heaven is a place of unending misery for you

Yes, and I feel pain for those I know to be suffering. It makes me unhappy. Indeed the other day I watched a report of cruelty which made me feel physically sick.

But I could not have such a reaction if I were in heaven of course, indeed it would not disturb my perfect happiness in the slightest. Hence no empathy.

I have not “coloured” anything. You imply acceptance of an option to get off the horns of the argument and then refuse to accept the consequences thereof.

Interesting, and is there a purpose after that?

there are probably many examples i could use. not suffering through empathy does not mean a careless or feckless nature or existence as your choices and characterization of my responses imply. people can help others when in heaven without suffering in heaven.
but your choices do not allow for a generous and kind assistance from heaven to those in need on earth.
and i can guarantee you that you do not, while on earth, always think about the suffering people. you do in fact switch off when you want to enjoy yourself.
medical and nursing staff can do this to a certain extent also. they generously and kindly give assistance without allowing themselves to become paralyzed by suffering through empathy. quite often they try to lighten the mood a bit by talking about their night out celebrating something as they are cutting and stitching your flesh back together.

 

[CandideWest]

there are probably many examples i could use. not suffering through empathy does not mean a careless or feckless nature or existence as your choices and characterization of my responses imply.

This seems entirely counter to my experience. When someone I love is suffering immensely and I know about it, I suffer as well. Do you not find this?

If I did not feel anything negative in knowing someone else was suffering immensely I would worry about my ethics. But people in heaven of course cannot experience those negative feelings as that would interrupt their perfect happiness.

people can help others when in heaven without suffering in heaven.

Sure, but that’s unrelated to the point isn’t it. This is about whether they have any empathy - whether the suffering of others makes them suffer themselves.

but your choices do not allow for a generous and kind assistance from heaven to those in need on earth.

??? It’s not relevant. What people in heaven do it do not do us of no relevance to how they feel. That is the subject here.

and i can guarantee you that you do not, while on earth, always think about the suffering people. you do in fact switch off when you want to enjoy yourself.

Sure, but I do not do that ALL the time and I can’t do it at all when its someone I love and their suffering is severe. Whereas if this is going to be your solution to the problem you would have to be arguing that those in heaven do exactly this (stay in “holiday mode” all the time, so they are never bothered by the suffering of others even their own loved ones).

 

[Paddy_Walker]

This seems entirely counter to my experience. When someone I love is suffering immensely and I know about it, I suffer as well. Do you not find this?

If I did not feel anything negative in knowing someone else was suffering immensely I would worry about my ethics. But people in heaven of course cannot experience those negative feelings as that would interrupt their perfect happiness.

Sure, but that’s unrelated to the point isn’t it. This is about whether they have any empathy - whether the suffering of others makes them suffer themselves.

??? It’s not relevant. What people in heaven do it do not do us of no relevance to how they feel. That is the subject here.

Sure, but I do not do that ALL the time and I can’t do it at all when its someone I love and their suffering is severe. Whereas if this is going to be your solution to the problem you would have to be arguing that those in heaven do exactly this (stay in “holiday mode” all the time, so they are never bothered by the suffering of others even their own loved ones).

candide, you have a blind spot for limited choices. here they are again.

1. You don’t know
2. You don’t care
3. Heaven is a place of unending misery for you

that is all you allow me. and i am telling you that is not enough. there is at least one other way which is not harsh, cruel, nor uncaring.

1. You know, you help, you don’t worry.

 

[CandideWest]

candide, you have a blind spot for limited choices. here they are again.

1. You don’t know
2. You don’t care
3. Heaven is a place of unending misery for you

that is all you allow me. and i am telling you that is not enough. there is at least one other way which is not harsh, cruel, nor uncaring.

1. You know, you help, you don’t worry.

Ok, but your 4. Is actually the same as 2.

Essentially 4. Is saying you know your son / daughter / loved one is suffering infinitely in hell and will remain so for all time, but it doesn’t bother you. If that’s your answer then fine, but why not just be straight about it? You keep dodging and trying to make distinctions without a difference.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Ok, but your 4. Is actually the same as 2.

Essentially 4. Is saying you know your son / daughter / loved one is suffering infinitely in hell and will remain so for all time, but it doesn’t bother you. If that’s your answer then fine, but why not just be straight about it? You keep dodging and trying to make distinctions without a difference.

no 4 is different to 3, that is why there is a four.
if your previously loved one is in hell, and you see them there, then it is not a matter of that you don’t care. you would see them there in hell but you would be looking at them in a serious way. there would be nothing you could do about it. they are trapped in hell. they see nothing but their own paranoia and there is nothing you can do to help them.
you would look at them, not as you say, that you don’t care, but you would see them as people trapped by their own paranoia .
it is certainly not that you look at them and you do not care. it is that you see them trapped and they would not, by their own state of paranoia, allow themselves to be helped. it is very sad, and would be serious to look at but it is not, as you say, that you do not care.
there are many families with loved ones who travel by the wrong road and will not listen to good advice. we are all individuals in that we are all responsible for our own choices and decisions and we can no more force our will on a loved one on the wrong road than we can help someone in hell who will not see anything other than their own personal paranoia.
it is not that yo do not care about your loved one but that there is nothing to be done about it. they made their own decision freely as you made yours and they live in their state as you now live in yours.
you should understand, i suppose, that we, as humans, do not control the universe we live in, rather we were created to live in this universe by another. everybody who finds themselves in hell has disregarded every possible help they might have had during life. they chose so willingly and freely and their choice follows them into the afterlife.
we see our friends and relatives in this life following the wrong road and we try to help and are sorry for them and see their situation seriously, not as you say, we do not care, but their is little we can do to help someone set on following the wrong course.
so we see their situation in hell seriously but there is nothing to be done about it. and prayers and well wishes from the souls in heaven go towards those still alive on earth to help them in every way to avoid the total separation from truth which fear and paranoia are the main tools in the arsenal of the enemy.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . If heaven is a place of joy and free of suffering, how could any parent be in heaven if any of his children are in Hell? Wouldn’t that parent have eternal suffering?

Luke 15:11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

Heaven rejoices when a sinner repents.

Seems that God being in everything, if Hell exists, He would know that too; He would know that suffering.