The question of miracles - Are there convincing miracle cases?

[EndTimes]

There is also the host of the more recent occurence where there are witnesses.

Yep…

The only thing scientifically established is that the objects are real human flesh and blood. The claim that they were once bread is only a claim by a priest 1300 years ago with no evidence. The “miracle” is unfalsifiable

Faith and ‘science’ are two distinct domains … one of God and one of Man

Seeking Signs can never lead anyone to Messiah Jesus

 

[Dan_Defender]

I’d ask for a change in a situation and end up with a change in myself that did indeed change the situation but in an an unexpected shocking way. In hindsight it was exactly what was needed.

Thanks for your testimony. I can relate to the same type of experience. God is generous to the faithful.

 

[EndTimes]

Seeking signs can never lead those who seek them to Messiah of All - Jesus

That’s EXACTLY why any who’ve demanded that - do not and can not - connect w/FAITH and SPIRIT

 

[EndTimes]

This thread is about miracles and how they can be used to justify one’s religion/worldview over another.

Jesus made a point of doing a Miraculous act
for the Sake of Showing in a very pointed manner to some religious leaders of His Day
just how very Wrong they were… along with evidencing His Divinity

_________________________

Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

3 At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”

4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

7 Then the man got up and went home.

8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Then why use them in your faith discussion at all?

I was just answering the question.

Do they make your faith stronger?

Good question. I don’t know. I hope to one day go to Guadalupe. I’d love to see St Juan Diego’s tilma with my own eyes. If what I’ve read is true I would be more confused as to why more people don’t believe. Same with the Schroud of Turin.

That’s not the discussion. This thread is about miracles and how they can be used to justify one’s religion/worldview over another.

I answered your question in the flow of the discussion. Why doesn’t God perform a miracle every day…

If you are now saying miracles are irrelevant in terms of faith, that is great, but you’ve then conceded the argument.

I’m saying my faith was formed well before I knew of any of these miracles. That may not be the case for everyone.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Here’s my point: it is very risky to deny scientific fact.

It is a fallacy that science can explain everything. Scientists have agendas. They couldn’t explain the current accelerated expansion of the universe so they invented ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy’ which are currently ‘mysteries’. The original theory of evolution stated that changes are so gradual that the fossil record cannot show it properly, then it changed to changes are so rapid through mutations that the fossil record cannot show it. Why is something so simple like a wheel strictly human while something so complex as production and storage of electricity occurring in the animal kingdom? if one is to be honest about scientific theories, there are holes all over the place.

 

[EndTimes]

There is no physical, rational evidence to justify faith (that’s why we call it faith),

Hold the Phone…

Signs were necessary for those Jewish Leaders who in essense placed the Death Penalty upon Messiah - for the purpose of giving them Proof of His Divinity.

NOTE - Miracles did not lead those Learn_ed to FAITH!

Reason based upon Evidences - such as JESUS speaking… and the Universe itself, etc.
Can Indeed lead one to FAITH

God looks Down upon those who demand SIGNS…

_

 

[MPat]

Your first and second define the miracle in terms of an illusion which, by definition, is a subjective perception in someone’s mind contrary to physical law. A ‘miraculous’ illusion is meaningless.

No.

For example, Wikipedia defines “illusion” so: “An illusion is a distortion of the senses, which can reveal how the human brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation. Though illusions distort our perception of reality, they are generally shared by most people.”.

Illusions (if not miraculous or “semi-miraculous”) follow laws of nature as much as anything else.

And thus it is possible for miraculous illusions to exist.

Mass delusion is not a miracle.

There is no such thing. We are not aware of anything that would at least suggest a possible mechanism of anything like that. And they have never been observed (no, atheists grasping at straws trying to explain miracles away do not count; they are not observing anything like that).

And the third secret of Fatima, which I assume you are referring to, is far, far from a “miraculous” prediction.

No, I am not referring to it. I am still referring to “miracle of the sun”.

 

[Justin_Mary]

For example, tilma was briefly investigated and it was found to be a painted relic - although painted with “one long stroke” (which seems a weird thing to say - almost an excuse - for example, a Christian scholar examined the tilma and had to come up with something: well yes it is painted, but it’s a really miraculous painting). So how about more examination? But the Church now says no.

I don’t know where you are getting your information from. That may be the biggest problem here.

 

[EndTimes]

God looks Down upon those who demand SIGNS…

It’s understandable how some could feel insulted - yet it implies no such thing:
especially when/if discussing the poignant and difficult topic of FAITH.

This is clearly realized via seeing this Teaching from God re: Faith and/or the lack of it and the refusal of His time to accept it. which at the least applied to SOME of those during the time of Jesus and His Apostles - when Jesus Himself walked about and was rejected by those who should have recognized Him but did not.

• For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who refused Faith,
• Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
• but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

For FAITH and Signs are in a manner - diametrical to one another…

And IMHO - those who demand “Show Me a Miracle!” - do not reflect that they understand Faith.

Speaking of His Resurrection - The enemies of Jesus, Messiah, denied only His Resurrection; yes?

_

 

[goout]

Christ was not denigrating signs and wonders.
He was chastising those who saw and yet obstinately doubted out of rebellious pride.
And because they would not accept him, they demanded he do tricks for them like a circus animal.
The saving power of God is active in faith, in a human being who is docile to God’s movement in their lives. If you take the step of faith, it opens eyes, ears, minds, and hearts.

The are many times when I am attacked by skepticism over basic articles of my faith, like the Eucharist. At the end of the day, I have to admit that my intellect is incapable of explaining what my heart knows. And my heart knows that Christ gives me true life, and has changed everything.
I believe because I know a person, not because I see the sun dance. And to me, the life changing encounter I’ve had is every bit as awesome a sign as any other miracle.

 

[EndTimes]

Christ was not denigrating signs and wonders.

He wasn’t denigrating them per se…

Yet He didn’t want Signs to be the necessity for Faith.

His very Words are the Words of God…

And Many had Faith in Him via His Word

Consider Sermon on the Mount

Matthew Chapters 5 through 7 complete.

If any have never read them? Check it out… !

 

[Annie]

I believe because I know a person, not because I see the sun dance.

This is the answer to the entire thread

 

[Chistian-ity]

All for the greater glory of God, dear PattyIt.

 

[AlbMagno]

All scientists have different and personal agendas.

Have you read about the network theory of Bruno Latour? Or about the rest of the constructivist theories? They explain why science isn’t the infallible, inhuman discipline we think it is (the positivistic approach).

 

[EndTimes]

All scientists have different and personal agendas.

Yes… and many are in extreme disagreement with one another.

 

[Poet]

I applaud those who are asking. I’ve always believed that faith is, in part, a gift from God.

Several here say that what Catholics believer are ‘miracles’ are really just natural events, such as a ‘spontaneous remission of cancer.’ These comments call to mind a short story I read long ago.

A husband and wife are on a team listening for communication from outer space. One day, it comes in. Amazingly, on decoding, it turns out to be the first verse of Genesis. It’s front page news all over the world. Many people turn back to God, believing He’s speaking to us. Day after day after day, the Bible, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, comes into this listening device.

As the weeks go on, the reports of what’s coming in gradually drift to the back page of the newspaper and people who were excited declare it just a random coincidence that the blips and beeps from outer space happen to be coming in in this order. A million monkeys on a million typewriters…

The point of the story is that in the end, we all choose what to believe. Those who for whatever reason really don’t want to believe in God (or maybe for reasons, ‘can’t,’ at this point) will look at the most amazing miracle ever and dismiss it as a statistical anomaly.

I personally saw a man healed of severely crippling arthritis on a holy site where Mary has appeared. I saw him marching around like a healthy 25 year old athlete and later heard from his sisters that he could barely get out of bed at home. Those who don’t or can’t believe will say it was just random coincidence, that it was a spontaneous remission or that it would have happened no matter where he was at the moment.

This is * not* a criticism of those people. Just the statement that nobody here can, in the end, present ‘proof,’ because we all interpret things as we really, really want to.

For me, the incorruptibles are compelling–and yes, I’ve seen some that appear more mummified than incorruptible, but I’ve seen others that are clearly not mummified, but are as if they’re sleeping. The events of Fatima are convincing. The Eucharistic miracles–in which the blood and the Eucharist have been tested and found to be actual blood and muscle (heart muscle I believe) are convincing. The numerous stories I’ve heard of people returning from Fatima, Lourdes, and Medjugorje completely changed are convincing.

When I’ve done extensive reading on Fatima in the past, thousands of people witnessed the sun’s behavior–and not only its behavior, but that it was a rainy day, muddy, and that after the sun appeared to be racing toward the earth, then backed off, everything was dry–which makes it harder to pass off as just a mass hallucination of the sun doing strange things. And I believe at the time it was reported around the world.

 

[Poet]

Another interesting story (which will be dismissed as merely a story, but I’m okay with that ) is the conversion of Alessandro Serenelli. In 1902 he killed Maria Goretti who was 12 (possibly only 11) at the time. She forgave him before she died. People began reporting miracles when they prayed at her grave. After eight years in prison, taunted for killing a saint, and descending to little more than an animal in his behavior toward others, Alessandro reports that Maria herself appeared to him one night. He changed overnight into a model prisoner and after being released, attended Maria’s canonization with her mother (who forgave him) and spent his life thereafter in a monastery. Sure maybe there’s some other explanation for what changed him overnight. But I sometimes think we bend ourselves into pretzels looking for some answer other than what he himself says happened: Maria appeared to him and overnight he was healed.

But just as in the story I opened this post with–we as humans struggle with doubt and want to live in our own way, not according to God’s way. So we can find plenty of ways to deny that these things are happening.

And I have no problem with skeptics. I think we should all look at things carefully and not jump straight to shouting Miracle! This is exactly why the Catholic church investigates so thoroughly.

 

[catholic-heart]

Eucharistic Miracles; the real blood matching the blood type on the Shroud of Turin, etc.

Even without the physical Eucharistic Miracles, the Eucharist in itself – many Holy Saints survived on nothing but the Eucharist once a day for years.

 

[EndTimes]

Several here say that what Catholics believer are ‘miracles’ are really just natural events, such as a ‘spontaneous remission of cancer.’

Exactly… We often run across folks who seemingly attempt to cast Doubt upon Jesus, Messiah.