The question of miracles - Are there convincing miracle cases?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Blindseeker04
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Not true at all. The strip tested shows exactly that pattern, and the skeptic admitted this in a previous post.
Really, there’s no need to be so crabby. A tiny portion of one corner of the Shroud shows a chronological gradient. Of course I admit that. What I never admitted was that the gradient could be extrapolated further and further into the Shroud, such that the middle of the cloth must have a radiocarbon proportion equivalent to years in the future. I can’t believe you misunderstood me on that point, and wonder why you insist on it now. Why do you need my approval of your beliefs?
 
That’s an interesting claim, but its a tough to compare Catholicism to Hinduism or Buddhism. For one this Catholicism has a single dogmatic system which insists upon and claims internal consistency. Hinduism has multiple variants throughout the World with various interpretations of the Vedas, the Ramayana, etc. In addition Hindu Scripture and Doctrine is explicitly self contradictory; followers of that faith are largely comfortable with that and treat it somewhat like we treat Mystery (Doniger). Buddhism is similar. Second, there is no Hindu or Buddhist Church to compare to the institution of the Catholic Church. Tibetan Buddhism is the closest parallel and the Dalai Lama has only existed for about a thousand years.
 
Here is an interesting press release about the recent statistical re-analysis of the Shroud’s 1988 C-14 evidence:


A link to the ARCHAEOMETRY paper is included. The last sentence of that paper:
it is not possible to affirm that the 1988 radiocarbon dating offers ‘conclusive evidence’ that the calendar age range is accurate. . .

So, based on the 1988 C-14 data, one may assign an average date of 1325 A.D. and also a confidence level of 95%, if that makes one happy. However, the uncertainty factor will not be the 65 years that was erroneously postulated by the British Museum. Instead, as determined by a correct statistical analysis, that uncertainty factor will actually be several millenniums, a range which includes the first century A.D.
 
Last edited:
Are there any miracles that you consider really defensible?
Yes

For many centuries - and barring the Resurrection -
not a one Miracle of the many Miracles spoken of by Christianity was ever denied.

yes … there do exist modern accounts of what very strongly appears to be “Miracles” .

yet… do or would any ever get accepted by, eg. an avowed atheist?
 
do or would any ever get accepted by, eg. an avowed atheist?
It is going to depend on the miracle. People have seen Mary appearing in a cloud in the sky. However, on closer examination, this was a natural phenomenon. There have been magicians who have claimed to performed miracles. But on closer examination, these were illusions of some sort.
Engineer Ernesto Brunati points out that with a chi-square value of 6.4, the significance level is 4.07,
Why is the chi-square value appropriate in this case. For example, there could be other issues such as temperature, climate, weather, pressure which affect the validity of the tests.
 
It is going to depend on the miracle. People have seen Mary appearing in a cloud in the sky. However, on closer examination, this was a natural phenomenon.
So you say… Moving along - God doesn’t want to be realized via proofs -
 
If I go to the Magis Centre site (mentioned above) and look for evidence for the most recent miracle mentioned, a Eucharistic Miracle in Buenos Aires, I’m sent to loamagazine (link now defunct) and aleteia.org. If I check out the aleteia source, it sends me to loamagazine! No joy there.
There is a subtitled YouTube video done by the scientist who did the investigation on the Buenos Aires Eucharistic miracle:

This is actually one part of a series of videos. YouTube videos used to be limited in length to about 10 minutes, so longer videos were cut up into 10-minute lengths. They were connected, so they would automatically play one after the other.

Now, search results show the parts mixed in with other videos, and not labeled so as to be watched in order. This may be a fault caused by years of updating, or may be the result of the original set being taken down and only copied videos left.

However, this one is good on its own.
 
Interesting!

How about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Incarnate of God? @Blindseeker04

For me, personally, this is what my faith is built upon. Believing in the resurrected Christ draws me closer to all about Him- His life, His Word, His authority, His teachings, His Church.

 
Last edited:
How about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Incarnate of God? @Blindseeker04

For me, personally, this is what my faith is built upon. Believing in the resurrected Christ draws me closer to all about Him- His life, His Word, His authority, His teachings, His Church.

cefavicon.ico
Catholic Exchange – 2 Apr 18

The Resurrection is God’s ‘Super Miracle’

The resurrection is the ultimate confirmation that Jesus was (and is) who He said He was. The resurrection is God’s exclamation point on the Incarnation.
The Enemies of Jesus never denied his miracles - barring - the Resurrection
 
Why is the chi-square value appropriate in this case. For example, there could be other issues such as temperature, climate, weather, pressure which affect the validity of the tests.
One has to be an expert on statistical analysis to appropriately address your question, and I, of course, am not. It seems to me that what the robust statistical analysis of the Shroud’s C-14 data has revealed is that this data is much too disparate for comfort. What the 1989 NATURE report did not bother to tell us is that the C-14 data obtained from the medieval control samples was not disparate and does pass the robust statistical analysis tests.

The conclusion is that the Shroud sample was affected by something that altered its carbon fourteen content and acted in a non-uniform linear way. That is the signature of a neutron radiation event which converted some of the nitrogen in the Shroud’s linen fibers to carbon fourteen.

Prior to the publication of the NATURE article Prof. Phillips of Harvard University wrote a letter to the British Museum in which he warned of the possibility of neutron radiation event enhancing the Shroud’s C-14 content. This letter was dismissed by the Museum to the effect of “if we are going to consider the possibility of a miracle, then why bother to do a C-14 analysis at all?” When the Museum received preliminary reports of the Shroud’s C-14 data, its scientists immediately concluded that the Shroud’s date was medieval. They then forced that data to fit their conclusion and never looked to see it the data better fitted the theory of a neutron radiation event.
 
Last edited:
Took me a while to understand your statement. 🙂

Who were the “Enemies” who denied the Resurrection?
 
Why is the chi-square value appropriate in this case.
Hi AlNg,

the Chi-Squared Test does not concern itself with environmental conditions. It is a merely mathematical way of distinguishing (if you don’t already know) whether two groups of measurements are actually measuring the same thing or not. For instance, as an athletics teacher, I was once involved in some research to find out whether boys are faster than girls. (It is recognised that they are from aged 12 or so, but we wanted to find out if the difference was apparent earlier). We timed about fifty six year olds, and of course there were some fast girls and some slow boys, and the measurements overlapped somewhat. However, following the procedure of the Chi-Squared Test, we ended with a value that demonstrated that there was only a 5% chance that the two groups of measurements came from the same population, concluding that even at aged six, on average boys are faster than girls, so girls should be given separate races on sports days!

The statisticians of the Nature paper were confused by the Chi-Squared Test that they carried out on the Shroud, as it showed that there was only a 4% chance that the Oxford sample and the Arizona sample come from the same cloth. As they had seen the two samples being cut, they knew that they were from the same cloth, so the Chi-Square needed to be explained. The explanation they came up with was that the errors had been under-reported, and were greater than quoted. This seems a little paradoxical, but curiously, the more imprecise a couple of measurements, the more likely they are to be measurements of the same thing. After all, if I say a piece of string is 15cm long and you say it is 20cm, then one or both of us must be wrong, but if I say 15cm give-or-take 3cm, and you say 20cm give-or-take 3cm, then we could both be right, as 17cm and 18cm lie within both our measurements.

Since then, alternative explanations have been suggested, such as minor contamination, substantial reweaving, or radiocarbon enrichment.
What the 1989 NATURE report did not bother to tell us is that the C-14 data obtained from the medieval control samples was not disparate and does pass the robust statistical analysis tests.
Not at all. “An initial inspection of Table 2 shows that the agreement among the three laboratories for samples 2, 3 and 4 is exceptionally good,” says the Nature paper.
Prior to the publication of the NATURE article Prof. Phillips of Harvard University wrote a letter to the British Museum…
I have no evidence for this. He did write to Nature after the results had been made public, and his letter appeared in the same edition as the paper on the tests. I have no evidence that the British Museum responded either, although Robert Hedges of the Oxford laboratory did, and explained that miraculous explanations are not susceptible to scientific study. “If a supernatural explanation is to be proposed, it seems pointless to make any scientific measurement on the shroud at all.” I agree with him.
 
Last edited:
the Chi-Squared Test does not concern itself with environmental conditions. It is a merely mathematical way of distinguishing (if you don’t already know) whether two groups of measurements are actually measuring the same thing or not.
I thought you had to assume that the two observations are independent and normally distributed. Environmental concerns can affect the assumption of normal distribution.
 
I thought you had to assume that the two observations are independent and normally distributed.
Ah, I see what you mean, and yes, quite so. Of course, when you’ve only got a few observations, there’s no way of telling whether they’re normally distributed or not, so you just hope for the best!
 
Robert Hedges of the Oxford laboratory . . . explained that miraculous explanations are not susceptible to scientific study. “If a supernatural explanation is to be proposed, it seems pointless to make any scientific measurement on the shroud at all.”
I agree with him.
Modernism and Circular Reasoning
I have mentioned modernism before. It is a philosophy that all events have a natural scientific explanation. It denies the possibility of miracles. The above silly statement by Hedges illustrates modernism at its best. Of course a miraculous event is subject to scientific study. Why wouldn’t it be? That is the whole point of the continued scientific investigation into the Shroud. However, proof of a miraculous event doesn’t fit into the modernist philosophy, so the idea of conducting an investigation into such an event has to be dismissed. The modernist holds that the image on the Shroud cannot be the result of a miracle, and therefore any evidence that such an event occurred has to be flawed. That is circular reasoning, and we have seen it time and time again in discussions about the Shroud.

A Perfect Storm
A modernist who has a brilliant mind and who, for whatever reason, harbors a deep resentment against the Church (because of its condemnation of his “orientation”) would be very antagonistic towards the proof of the miracle of the resurrection, and would spare no expense or effort in his attempts to discredit it. But that is exactly what the miraculous image on the Shroud is: proof that the Corpse vanished into another dimension.
 
Last edited:
Consider…

People witnessed Miracles via Jesus - yet did not ever follow Him…

Faith… remains the Key which opens the Door to God…
 
That’s a good point. However, in the tribulations to come many of us could find that having something both visible and miraculous to hang on to would be useful and even essential. In her warning about a disaster of fire Our Lady of Akita mentioned “the Sign that Jesus left for us” as a thing to hold onto. I believe that she was referring to His miraculous image on His Shroud.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top