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SedesDomi
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Which verse are you referring to?
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Lapell
Guest
Yes, of course they did, but they could not boast it as a “victory”, so it’s as though it was not really them, in that sense! They killed Him, but Jesus is the Victor!!
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inJESUS
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the only verse about the crucifixion:
Surah 4, Verses 157 & 158:
“and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, (negation) but it was made to appear to them so ***(affirmation); ***and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”
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planten
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There is no corrupton or misunderstanding in the words of Quran. They are more correct and meaningful than the words of the bible which have been distorted to take special meaning, such as before Abraham i am. What does that mean?the emphasis you’re looking for is not there for the simple reason that the author is not denying that “they” did it simply because later he AFFIRMS something else all the while refering to “they” as well…so the emphasis is not on who did it…muslims put the emphasis on NEITHER…NOR and stop…yet the verse does not stop therethe climax is BUT IT APPEARED AS SUCH. In other words, the author is AFFIRMING that something “appeared”
so either it appeared it was Jesus but it was someone else OR a crucifixion appeared but it was not real
Quran is telling that they could not kill Jesus on the cross (the act of crucifixion which was the aim of the Jews was not completed because Jesus had not died on the cross) BUt it appeared to them as such (means that jesus appeared to them as if dead.). What is the problem? I could not understand Ralph about God lying or cheating. What makes any one think so.
In the bible God permitted a prophet to be cheated by his son and wife and permitting telling lie too. Please look to that first and give some reply before thinking such thing in Quran.
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inJESUS
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morning_star777
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really?dear planten should i repeat again those faults of quran
?i think i shouldn’t.any way i am reading bible but didn’t find yet that 1.25 or 1.125 some times can be equal to 1.but a part of inheritance law in quran taught us 1.25=1,&1.125=1
.quran taught us new calculation
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Angelos
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In your beloved scripture, Ibrahiym (Abraham) lied by saying that he was sick when invited to the festival of his nation.
In the Koran, Allah brags about deceiving and misleading his creatures!
We know the Koran very well, dear planten, but you know neither the Bible nor the Koran for a sound comparison.
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ralphinal
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Jesus died on the Cross. His Mother thought so. His friends thought so. The Romans soldiers who were there thought so. that is hisotrical fact.
teh Qur’an says he was neither on the cross nor died on the cross.
Either God lied to Muhammed or God was mistaken or misremembered or everyone else for 600 years lied.
Now, you throw that the Bible is corrupt. You cannot prove corruption because the second does not agree with the first. Do you people have original text to check it with? Can you show statements from people who changed the Bible? No. So I must hold that the Bible is accurate and the Qur’an is not.
And, for the record, “before Abraham was, I Am” means exactly what it says. Before there was Abraham existed, Jesus was becuase Jesus is God.
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dolphinlove
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Planten, i have one tiny suggestion for you.
Go to a bookshop, purchase a good bible, READ it and make up your own mind.
The ‘arguments’ you bring up are the same old tired rants previous muslims have done on this site.
I think you go to other sites, get ideas about the bible and not actually have read it, am i right in saying this?
Please, read it, and if you are unsure of anything, please ask us, we are more than glad to help if the understanding of the bible might be a bit hard. Im not mocking you, but some people do find it hard to read the first time around and need help with the parables and what not…
God bless
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planten
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There is no such thing. The matter was explained to you very well. At least we have the laws, the inheritance and marriage and divorce with mathematics too which you should appreciate.really?dear planten should i repeat again those faults of quran
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planten
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Angelos, there was no telling lies in Quran. It is all in thebible and I have given clear example of prophets doing that. You could not deny.
When people asked Ibraheem to go to festival, he did not want to go. So he said that he was indisposed. That meant he did not feel like that. But in yourbible Abraham is clearly telling his wife to telllies to theking of Egypt and anothjer man too that she was the sister of Abraham. Have you any expalantion?
There is no deceiving the creature. The crooks (Infidels) plan things against Allahand Allah plans things against them. But the plans of Allah are always successful as inthecase of Jesus whentheJews wanted to kill him on thecross,Allah failed their plans and saved His man (Jesus) from the cursed death on the cross which was planned for him by the infidels.
I know the bible very well and I know that you people have much difficulty in twisting the meanings around and you have a lot of difficulty to explain many things.
I am presenting the meanings understood as for Muslims. You may not believe them. You follow your course as you like.
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planten
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Not sufficient explanation about before Abraham I am… Meaningless sentence. I admit that you believe Jesus died onthe cross (for any reason). I do not deny it. That is true statement of the Quran that the Jews and the christians will keep on believeing that Jesus was killed on the cross. That is true even today. So what is wrong?
WE do not have to go back very far to prove the corruption in the bible because I see it every day even now, changes are being made in the man made book for the sake of improvement. Is that not corruption? But no harm. There is no real bible available any where. So that is not my fault.
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planten
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I don’t go to other sites. I do not like them, any of them. I love this Catholic forum which is better than many. I have read the bible (the four gospels). That is enough for me because I am not going to write any thesis on the subject.
I have read the bible. I love it and enjoy reading it even now. I respect it as I respect Jesus and all his real disciples. I respect Jesus as i respect Muhammad and Moses.I hope that is good enough for me.
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Angelos
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It is very saddening to see that Muslims (who always claim to be honest because of their faith) twist their scripture so as to conceal its mistakes and problematic statements. Ibrahiym in the Koran says he is sick although he is very healhty, and this is a lie. Ibrahiym somehow cannot say that he does not want to go to the festival or that he does not feel like it, but that he cannot go because he is sick, which is a false pretext (lie!).
Doesn’t Abraham do something similar in the Koran when he claims that the one who smashed all the idols was not himself but the biggest idol with the axe around its neck??? Ibrahiym is caught telling lies once more in the Koran to save himself from the wrath of his nation.
The Allah of Islam dissents from you when He admits to deceiving people and later brags about it!
And those who cry lies to Our signs We will draw them on little by little whence they know not; and I respite them – assuredly My guile (kaydee) is sure.** S. 7:182-183**
Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them S. 4:142
Are they then secure from Allah’s deception (makra Allahi)? None deemeth himself secure from Allah’s scheme (makra Allahi) save folk that perish. S. 7:99
How can you expect me to trust your biblical knowledge when you fail to understand a simple verse in John’s Gospel?
About Jesus’ crucifixion, you are NOT presenting the widespread and traditional Islamic interpretation.
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Angelos
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The single verse in the Koran denying Jesus’ crucifixion is so obscure and inadequate that it even fails to provide the reader/believer with a theological reason for the supposed prevention of Jesus’ crucifixion and death. More, the Koran dissents from you when it claims that "They neither killed, NOR crucified Him, but so it appeared to them (both the crucifixion and Jesus’ death were an appearance with no reality!) Finally, there is no verse in the Koran that accuses Christians of believing in Jesus’ crucifixion or predicts that this supposedly faulty belief will last until the day of judgment.
The same can be said about the Islamic scripture! Everyday Muslim scholars distort the Koran through (deliberate!) faulty translations and misinterpretations. There is no standard Koran anywhere, and this is not our fault either.
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morning_star777
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truely truely you have explained me but in ur own way by editing quran
.neither when we(i&Agnos Thiest)asked for the reference about ur 13/24(daughter’s)&14/24(sister’s) then why couldn’t u give the perfect reference from quran?
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morning_star777
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if u want to give reference from quran then go back to this thread,“major flaws of islam”&give reference.but i think u can’t,because there is no such thing(13/24&14/24)in qurantruely truely you have explained me but in ur own way by editing quran
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ralphinal
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And why is that not a valid explination for the verse from John’s Gospel? It is what he said AND what he meant. God used the phrase “I Am” as his title. By Jesus saying that he was “I Am” before Abraham was, he was stating clearly to the Jews of the time that he was God.
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Lapell
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I don’t mind your presenting the meanings as the Muslims understand them… But in doing so you should not add that we twist the meanings of the Biblical passages or that we are wrong. That’s not part of proper inter-religious dialogue; first, you assume you are right; you might be, but you also might be wrong! Moreover that’s hurtful for us Catholics (and other Christians too). I think I already told you this. I don’t agree with those on our side who would act the same way toward you either.
Let the Spirit of the True God guide us all…
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inJESUS
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