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dolphinlove
Guest
Planten,
Honestly, i think you should read the whole of the NT, especially acts. As this is also very important in many ways. It might answer a lot of questions you have also.
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Honestly, i think you should read the whole of the NT, especially acts. As this is also very important in many ways. It might answer a lot of questions you have also.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Planten,
Could you show me your posting explaining this? I missed that. It will be wonderful. BTW, do you explain it numerically? Don’t give us words, give us the number for sure.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Planten,
Don’t make Abraham equal to God. We the Christian never ever think that Abraham equal to God. God cannot lie, and that is for sure. Abraham sure can, because Abraham is still human and still need the salvation.
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swariffin
Guest
If you don’t understand things in the bible, that does not make the bible is wrong, my dear friend. The same things is like this. If you don’t understand the theory of relativity, does not mean that Einstein is wrong.
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planten
Guest
Dear me, by twisting and turning, I mean going to extreme effort to extract some supposed meanings. I do not mean any abuse. I mean, something which apparantly does not seem to be there at all but you people (or your leaders) try to take those meanings. Such as Trinity and Jesus being god as if he said so himself or that he was being preached as a god in his own time, such things are not there in the four gospels.
I agree to the gospels. That is the more real and better account of Jesus life history, his biography by his friends. Jesus never mentioned anything about paul conversion. But you people have brought it about somehow. While what Jesus said (about Parclete) that you have altered the meanings. Also, about Deut 18:18, about that prophet, the like of Moses, you have altered the meaning. Then there was in Deut 18:20, a false prophet will be killed. You have changed it now “That false prophet will die”. I want to know that a prophet who is not false, will he not die??
There is a clear difference between being killed and just dying. Who is doing all these things and presenting them to the world (the muslims) in a new way? The Muslims may not agree to what is being done. I wish that bible was left alone. Too much emphasis is being placed on the bible as being the sacred word of God. At the same too much operations are being done on it daily.
I do not blame or abuse the christians or Jesus or bible. I do not want to hurt any one. That would be bad, specially if I do it wrongly (falsely). But if the complaints are there then please excuse me for saying what I said. You be kind and look into those matters yourself please.
On the one hand you are delving into the matter deeply and bringing about the very remote meanings, on the otherhand, where we suggest simple straight meanings then you deny them, that is another problem. Let me know if I can be of any service to any one. Thanks.
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planten
Guest
Sorry, too much work. The four gospels describe Jesus life history more accurately than anything else. To add or subtract would mislead. That is the problem.
I do not see anything missing in the four gospels. It is enough to teach any one and to prove the love of Jesus and his effort. It only complicates the matters to attach extra things to the real thing. I suggest you should also not read anything extra.
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planten
Guest
Please try to be clear. Abraham was guided by God. So if he was telling lies then that would come to your God who was allowing such things. I only pointed out something from the OT to show you that all types of lying and cheating is there in that sacred book of yours. Yet you are telling that God is lying in Quran. That is not so. Thanks. Just forget.
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planten
Guest
Bible is the same for you and me. You can read it and understand it. Then why cannot I (or any one else) understand it. It is all there in the bible. But when I ask, people try to evade the answer and say it is off topic.
Bible is available in all languages of the world. Every one is reading it. Unless some special point, everything is easy. But you people have tried to make it some special secret code book which only you can explain. That is not fair. Please let the words speak for themselves. Explain all you points by the four gospels only. That is real Jesus. The rest is all addendum (after thought). Thanks anyway about the theory of relativity, if it is in the bible.
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swariffin
Guest
No way, Planten. Indeed Abraham was guided by God. As human being, still he is tempted to do things his own way. Therefore, he lied that Sara was his sister, he slept with hagar and yield Ishmael (forget about the status, this is what we misunderstood each other last time). That was not God’s plan. But still, eventually faith made Abraham great. Does not mean that Abraham is incapable of lying. The story actually put value as God the merciful as the real prime star in the story, rather than a man named Abraham. But, when we talk about God directly, there is no circumstances that we can conclude that God lies. I do personally believe that you admid that God does not lie. But the literal wording of your Quran says otherwise.
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Angelos
Guest
You always forget that in the Koran Ibrahiym was guided by Allah to tell lies to his people and deceive them… Was that an honest act? Allah even allowed Mohammad to break some of his oaths!! How can you say that the Koran prohibits deceptive acts?
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Angelos
Guest
Can you Muslims understand the whole Koran? I guess NOT. There are a few cryptic letters in the introductory section of several Surahs that have not been deciphered yet. All Muslims can do is cling to presumptions.
Read the following verse to see who turns whose scripture into a secret code book:
Surah 3:7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah.
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swariffin
Guest
Dear Planten,
What secret code you mean? Perhaps you may not understand that the bible is not a book of science nor a book of history. The bible is the book of faith. The bible is the reflection of faith. That is why we do not simply take the literal word, and take it for granted as the real meaning. To understand the depth of the bible, one must be good at the original language it is written. This is the same thing if I want to learn the depth of Quran, correct? I must be good in Arabic to be able to do so.
Why do we need to be well verse in the original language? Because we have to understand the circumstances, the grammar, the vocabulary, writing techniques, in order to grasp the real meaning of the writer. You cannot just take the word of the bible and applied it literally. Still basing on the bible, our theology is a dynamic theology. For instance, if you believe in a = b, and you believe b = c, eventhough that the bible does not specifically say, we can believe that a = c. That what makes our theology becomes a dynamic one.
Now, let me give you an example. I live in Indonesia, to the east of Ka’ ba. So, the muslims must face west to face Ka’ Ba, correct? However, Sister Amy last time quoted one of the Hadist forbidding you to face Ka Ba when you are urinating, for instance. Further, the Hadist does mentioned literally that you must face either west of east to avoid Ka’ Ba. If I take the meaning literally, following the hadist of urinating facing west, that means I am facing Ka Ba while urinating, correct? I am taking this not as a joke, nor being offensive. I just want to tell you that you can’t take the wording of a holy book just as it is written literally, for granted.
Another one example. The Indonesian muslim must face west to face Ka Ba, correct? Now, since the earth is round, if a muslim face east to pray, he/she will eventually face Ka Ba, correct? Now, why can’t they face east? In the world of Quran, Muhammad believed that the earth is flat. I am not going to refute that. For the sake of this discussion, lets put it aside. In that case, the Indonesian should face west, as what it happens today. Now, can I say that Muhammad is wrong for believing the earth is flat? Not necessarily. Quran is a book of faith, not a book of astronomy. Muhammad never meant to teach Astronomy 101, correct? Do you understand me?
About the relativity. Do you understand that? If you don’t then you are saying that Einstein is wrong. Is that what you mean? Geezz:shrug: Tell you what. If you don’t understand the relativity, and if you want to know, then you better learn, rather than making conclusion too fast. If you don’t want to know, why bother concluding??
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dolphinlove
Guest
Your missing out a lot of the substance that makes up the NT.
There are so many more things to read and give you a better understanding of Christianity if you take the time to read them.
If you have only read those 4, you do not understand much about what we believe at all. You really are missing out, and will give you a better understanding us, and how and why we worship God the way we do.
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Nickkname
Guest
From a purely historic view, Jesus really was crucified and really did die.
We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius.
In the second century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ’s death on the Cross (“De Morte Pereg”). There are also alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, “Contra Cels”, IV, 51).
Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, “Contra cels.”, II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, “Hor. Heb.”, 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit.,699 700; cf. “Sanhedrin”, vi, vii).
Besides historic evidence, there is also the evidence of the Resurrection event itself. There are arguments against Jesus ever rising again from the dead, but none have been able to prove there was no Resurrection, especially since all the arguments contain at least one historical error.
And there are also the words of Jesus himself. He prophesized his own death, and his own resurrection, more than once too. But people can say the Bible is corrupted or has been tampered with. Yet these claims contain historical errors, just as the arguments against the Resurrection do.
We possess at least the testimony of Tacitus (A.D. 54-119) for the statements that the Founder of the Christian religion, a deadly superstition in the eyes of the Romans, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate under the reign of Tiberius.
In the second century Lucian sneered at Christ and the Christians, as he scoffed at the pagan gods. He alludes to Christ’s death on the Cross (“De Morte Pereg”). There are also alleged allusions to Christ in Numenius (Origen, “Contra Cels”, IV, 51).
Jewish writings show traces of acquaintance with His betrayal by Judas and His death (Origen, “Contra cels.”, II, 9, 45, 68, 70; Buxtorf, op. cit., 1458; Lightfoot, “Hor. Heb.”, 458, 490, 498; Eisenmenger, loc. cit., 185; Schottgen, loc. cit.,699 700; cf. “Sanhedrin”, vi, vii).
Besides historic evidence, there is also the evidence of the Resurrection event itself. There are arguments against Jesus ever rising again from the dead, but none have been able to prove there was no Resurrection, especially since all the arguments contain at least one historical error.
And there are also the words of Jesus himself. He prophesized his own death, and his own resurrection, more than once too. But people can say the Bible is corrupted or has been tampered with. Yet these claims contain historical errors, just as the arguments against the Resurrection do.
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Lapell
Guest
Some false things can be said without those who say it being even aware of the fact! It has happened very often and still is happening…
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Lapell
Guest
As for your use of the word “twisting”, are you sure, planten, that you never implied by it that some of us were trying to extract from the Bible things there have never been there?
As for going deep into the meaning, I am sure that your scholars must have been doing just with Coranic Surah verses, and I don’t believe it’s that restricted to them provided one is truly seeking the Truth and not just God’s approbation of things that He won’t!
As for going deep into the meaning, I am sure that your scholars must have been doing just with Coranic Surah verses, and I don’t believe it’s that restricted to them provided one is truly seeking the Truth and not just God’s approbation of things that He won’t!
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inJESUS
Guest
Since Muslims will never stop questioning God’s words no matter what God says, let us go back to topic.
Planten, what does it mean neither died **nor **crucified?
Planten, what does it mean neither died **nor **crucified?
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planten
Guest
It is easy. It means that they planned to kill Jesus. But they could not kill him on the cross (not crucified) and they could not kill him inany other way too.
Not crucified means Jesus was not killed on the cross. As it used to happen, in those days,many people came down from cross alive. Then their legs were broken to kill them quickly.
This was not done in the case of Jesus as a respect. Even the Roman soldier there was an inside man. He said “Oh, surely, he (Jesus) was a holy man of God.” (some words near about that.)
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swariffin
Guest
(1) How can you explain many people came down from cross alive? Would they get freed? or subjected to another death punishment? Can you give a logical explanation? Medical doctors concluded that no one can logically escape crucifiction alive. The manner of being nailed was different that what modern people see from the statues/drawings. But, there was indeed a crucifiction, and supported by archeological proof finding.
(2) And how can that “Inside man” managed not to break Jesus’ legs infront of other soldiers who definitely not the inside men, and infront of the Jews who were shouting for Jesus’ death?
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ralphinal
Guest
There was a History Chanel show on Crucifixion. It was amazing. They did some limited research on it. After the first 10 minutes, oxygen levels in the blood dropped exponintially. In is highly unlikely many people could survive.
I am also amazed how Muslims ignore the fact that Jesus was stabbed by a lance through his chest. That alone would have killed him.
I am also amazed how Muslims ignore the fact that Jesus was stabbed by a lance through his chest. That alone would have killed him.
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