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Angelos
Guest
Why do you think Jesus said “FATHER is greater than I am” instead of “GOD is greater than I am”. Why do you think He said that before His arrest and passion and ONLY to His chosen ones?
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swariffin
Guest
Dear InJesus and Angelos,
Thanks. You have answered our Friend, Planten for me. Hope that he can understand.
Thanks. You have answered our Friend, Planten for me. Hope that he can understand.
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inJESUS
Guest
actually, *why *did Jesus even say that to monotheistic Jews?
being greater than does not mean in nature since the **Word is God **as John says
an example illustrates this point:“I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone **greater **than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is **greater **than he.” Matthew 11:11
John being greater than all those born of women does not mean that the rest were less human than John or that they were inferior to John in nature. Here, it means that John was greater in position and rank.
“For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.” Luke 22:27
“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Philippians 2:5-8
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Angelos
Guest
You are welcome, dear swariffin
planten will disappear for a while until he returns with another post off-topic!
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Angelos
Guest
Excellent post! Let the one who has ears hear!actually, *why *did Jesus even say that to monotheistic Jews?
being greater than does not mean in nature since the **Word is God **as John says
“I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone **greater **than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is **greater **than he.” Matthew 11:11
John being greater than all those born of women does not mean that the rest were less human than John or that they were inferior to John in nature. Here, it means that John was greater in position and rank.
“For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves.” Luke 22:27
“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Philippians 2:5-8
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dolphinlove
Guest
InJesus, Angelos…
:grouphug:
:grouphug:
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inJESUS
Guest
:grouphug:
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Steven_John
Guest
Hi thanks for asking, in truth you will need to find it for your self.
But my understanding is.
We pray to the highest, not he lesser that comes from it.
Jesus (pbwh) is the way.
So if we believe in him we too will say
The Father is Greater
The Greater is God of Jesus (pbwh) he taught us to pray to It.
He said Father to deepen the understanding of the relationship between God and man.
As for who he said it to it might be that some are not ready to accept him as the way, they may still be following what parents or teachers / scholars taught them rather than his words.
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Angelos
Guest
You are not responding to any of my questions
I am just asking YOU (because I know the answer to this question) why Jesus never said “God is greater than I am”, but preferred saying “The Father is greater than I am”.
Likewise, why do you think Jesus always said MY FATHER rather than our Father?
inJESUS has already debunked your assertion that the qualifier “great” denotes distinction in nature. Actually, Jesus’ human nature would be exulted through His passion and resurrection, and He referred to this glorification when He said He was going to the Father, who was greater than He in position/rank.
Jesus’ final discourse in John’s Gospel presents excellent teachings about the Triuıne God with the specific emphasis that the persons of Godhead are distinct although they are ONE in nature.
I should also remind you that Jesus does not only say He is the way, but also that He is the truth and life. He is the giver of life. Who besides God can be the source of life and creation?
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inJESUS
Guest
See Angelos, there are people who interpret Jesus’ words in the 20th century mentality when someone says he is god and others take it as an unoffensive joke.So when Jesus says the Father is working on the sabbath and likewise Jesus is working, they fail to understand the implications of Jesus’ words to His audience who understood pretty well what He was implying. When Jesus says He gives peace and wisdom, they’ll reply " yes God gives Him peace and wisdom and so Jesus gives them" as if we are talking about some satellitelite here, not understanding the implications of Jesus to first century Jews who know that if Jesus did NOT mean what He is saying, then He IS blaspheming .
Angelos, you were a Muslim. If a man came and told you back then that he is the Rahman and Raheem, am pretty sure you’d have understood pretty well what he is implying because in the Islamic context and ideology, if he does not literally mean what he is saying then he is an utter blasphemer.
This is how some approach Jesus’ words, forgetting the implications of what He said to the audience who understood very well what He is saying
Angelos, you were a Muslim. If a man came and told you back then that he is the Rahman and Raheem, am pretty sure you’d have understood pretty well what he is implying because in the Islamic context and ideology, if he does not literally mean what he is saying then he is an utter blasphemer.
This is how some approach Jesus’ words, forgetting the implications of what He said to the audience who understood very well what He is saying
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planten
Guest
Sorry, I do not agree. I see that the christians have not only taken Jesus as a Lord beside the God but they are adamant to have some more Lords beside Jesus, i.e. his disciples. The teachings of Jesus are not enough for the christians. They want more lords besides Jesus and that is the greatest sin according to Islam to take any one as a lord beside Allah. We never do that.
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dolphinlove
Guest
You are mistaken, we do not want more than one Lord.
Jesus is God, we have extensively explain this to you.
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inJESUS
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Angelos
Guest
It is easy to adapt your erroneous and baseless assertion to Islam.
Since Allah was not enough, Muslims needed Mohammad. They later added a scripture to this list of lords. Now Muslims have the Koran and Mohammad as their lords beside Allah. (I am not including the other lords Muslims adopted after Mohammad: Khaliphs!)
Besides, what you claim against Jesus’ apostles is refuted in the Koran, which says that Allah inspired the havariyyun to follow Jesus.
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inJESUS
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It is easy to adapt your erroneous and baseless assertion to Islam.
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planten
Guest
Please try to read my post thoroughly. The apostles were told to preach in the name of the father and the holy spirit and the son. That was alright. It was necessary to have holy spirit and the son for preaching because that was telling the source, the link between God and the teachings.
We have the name of Muhammad with the name of God (Allah). Nobody can separate the name of muhammad from the name of Allah now. But that does not mean Muhammad is God. Similarly, teh HS and the son were to be mentioned for the preaching of the good news (bible). But not to make them as gods.
Christians have taken the words of the apostles as if they were from a prophet. Apostles are niether prophets nor messengers of God. I hope I am right, as per bible words.
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inJESUS
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Angelos
Guest
What you fail to see or deliberately choose to ignore is that Jesus did not use the noun “name” in PLURAL form although He referred to the name of three distinct persons. Since three persons have the same name, the apostles also baptized only in the name of Jesus!
Do you believe that Allah and Mohammad has the ONE and SAME name? If this is how u believe, then your Mohammad is automatically elevated to the same rank and nature of Allah in Islam!
Why does the Koran say that Allah inspired the apostles? Why does the Koran refer to Christian prophets in Surah 36???
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planten
Guest
I have explained the wise words of Jesus about preaching in the name of the Father and H.S. and the son. But it did not mean that the Holy spirit and the son were gods beside the Father. That was the mistake of the church and a very great mistake. I need not write it again.What you fail to see or deliberately choose to ignore is that Jesus did not use the noun “name” in PLURAL form although He referred to the name of three distinct persons. Since three persons have the same name, the apostles also baptized only in the name of Jesus!
Do you believe that Allah and Mohammad has the ONE and SAME name? If this is how u believe, then your Mohammad is automatically elevated to the same rank and nature of Allah in Islam!
Why does the Koran say that Allah inspired the apostles? Why does the Koran refer to Christian prophets in Surah 36???
Allah inspired the apostles. Allah spoke to the apostles. (Quran 5:111) There was a difficult time for Jesus. He called people for help in the way of Allah (3:52) His apostles replied that they were the helpers of Jesus in the way of Allah. It is sure that the discples receieved words from God. But that was during the life time of Jesus. The disciples were guided by God to help Jesus.
We Muslims respect the disciples and the Quran gives good report about the disciples. But the bible tells that they all abondoned Jesus and ran away at the time of difficulty. I have to believe that too. But that is not supported by the Quran.
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Angelos
Guest
What you have recurrently posted is not relevant to what is written in the New Testament. I have explained to you several times that your interpretation is wrong. Jesus does not only ask His disciples to preach, but also to give the sacraments in the ONE and SAME NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Your misunderstanding will continue unless you realize Jesus uses the word NAME rather than NAMES with regard to the Triune God.
Good that your erroneous view of the apostles is now corrected. More, the New Testament tells us that when the apostles left Jesus and ran away, one of the prophecies in the OT came true (I shall strike the shepherd, and the sheep will scatter).
Jesus also wanted His apostles to leave Him when He said to the soldiers coming to arrest Him, “I am the one you are looking for. Let these go”, which was in accordance with Jesus’ promise “None of the ones God gave Him would be lost, except for the son of perdition”.
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