The Qur'an and Jesus on the Cross

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Why do you think Jesus said “FATHER is greater than I am” instead of “GOD is greater than I am”. Why do you think He said that before His arrest and passion and ONLY to His chosen ones?
Father was a term used by Jesus to assist the people of that day understand the relationship offered to us by God.

I guess Jesus needed to reaffirm the importance of the relationship between God and man so they see that God is the source of the goodness they were seeing through Jesus (pbwh).

If he did not offer this the disciples may have fallen due to the pain of their loss and worshiped Jesus (pbwh) not God as is the path Jesus (pbwh) offered.

Jesus (pbwh) had made similar distinctions earlier in his mission.
 
Sorry, I do not agree. I see that the christians have not only taken Jesus as a Lord beside the God but they are adamant to have some more Lords beside Jesus, i.e. his disciples. The teachings of Jesus are not enough for the christians. They want more lords besides Jesus and that is the greatest sin according to Islam to take any one as a lord beside Allah. We never do that.
Dear Planten,

The apostle is the carrier of the teaching of Jesus. All things were made based on the teaching of Jesus. Jesus’ teaching is just like the constitution, and all laws must be derived from such constitution.

Muhammad is the carrier of God’s word, correct? What about after Muhammad dead? Do you lose the the word of God? Ah…Yes… you still have the static book called Quran. No wonder your logic is following the static one, no room for interpretation. And yet, Planten, the definition of “Unbeliever” surprisingly different to one kind of Muslims to another. That is not supposed to be that way, if One Quran yield One interpretation.
 
Dear Angelos, please dont take my last post as me rabbiting on. knew i had been asked a question that i had not answered. following throught the thread, i see you have answered it 4me.

I aint well schooled and get mixed up on the web.

Peace and blessings
 
Dear Angelos, please dont take my last post as me rabbiting on. knew i had been asked a question that i had not answered. following throught the thread, i see you have answered it 4me.

I aint well schooled and get mixed up on the web.

Peace and blessings
Peace and blessings to you too 🙂
 
Dear Planten,

The apostle is the carrier of the teaching of Jesus. All things were made based on the teaching of Jesus. Jesus’ teaching is just like the constitution, and all laws must be derived from such constitution.
**Right. Disciples have to carry the message forward. It is a responsibility on them. The message is that of Jesus. In doing so they should not insert their own message. That would corrupt the message.

When they knew what Jesus did and said, they should carry that forward. That is what is done in Islam. Muhammad left a message (The Quran). He also translated the Quran practically during his 23 years of preaching. So people knew the meaning of things.

We have the words of Muhammad. We do not mix them into the words of God. We also have the words of the friends (companions) of the prophet. We do not mix their words into the Quran and Sunnah. We keep them as simple servant of Allah. We don’t make their teachings as if they were from God. **
Muhammad is the carrier of God’s word, correct? What about after Muhammad dead? Do you lose the the word of God? Ah…Yes… you still have the static book called Quran. No wonder your logic is following the static one, no room for interpretation. And yet, Planten, the definition of “Unbeliever” surprisingly different to one kind of Muslims to another. That is not supposed to be that way, if One Quran yield One interpretation.
** Interpratation is open to every one. Some will mis-interpret. Others will do well. Same is the case with bible. I read it. You read it. The protestants and JW’s read it. Not all can be right**.
 
Planten am afraid you cannot project your views of your book on our scriptures…whatever the apostles did/preached/established , it was accirding to Jesus’ orders.
 
Planten am afraid you cannot project your views of your book on our scriptures…whatever the apostles did/preached/established , it was accirding to Jesus’ orders.
Can you prove that? Or do you just believe it?
 
Can you prove that? Or do you just believe it?
Jesus said it…i believe what He says…He promised not only to establish His Church, but also to defend Her against evil and make Her prevail

I am sending you prophets and wise men"

"do not worry what you will say when you are questioned. I shall give you wisdom

when the Holy Spirit descends on you , you will be my witnesses to the ends of the earth

just a sample.
 
Matt. 16:19 will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt 18:18 - Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 9:1He summoned the Twelve and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal (the sick).

Luke 10:19 - Behold, I have given you the power ‘to tread upon serpents’ and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you.

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.”
 
**Right. Disciples have to carry the message forward. It is a responsibility on them. The message is that of Jesus. In doing so they should not insert their own message. That would corrupt the message.

When they knew what Jesus did and said, they should carry that forward. That is what is done in Islam. Muhammad left a message (The Quran). He also translated the Quran practically during his 23 years of preaching. So people knew the meaning of things.

We have the words of Muhammad. We do not mix them into the words of God. We also have the words of the friends (companions) of the prophet. We do not mix their words into the Quran and Sunnah. We keep them as simple servant of Allah. We don’t make their teachings as if they were from God. **

** Interpratation is open to every one. Some will mis-interpret. Others will do well. Same is the case with bible. I read it. You read it. The protestants and JW’s read it. Not all can be right**.
And that is the point we are trying to communicate to you, Planten. God is indeed a living God, His Words is living Words. God’s word is alive. That is why God’s words were revealed in the form of Jesus, a living being. The words of God cannot be a dead one. So dead that can be contained in a limited pages of one book. There is nothing logical whatsoever that the whole teaching of God can be contained in a single book, no matter how many ways you interpret it.

Good for you if you don’t add anything more about your Quran and Sunnah. Without additions, the world has already had problems from those who misinterpret the Quran. Let alone if you can add things uncontrollably of the teaching from Quran.
 
And that is the point we are trying to communicate to you, Planten. God is indeed a living God, His Words is living Words. God’s word is alive. That is why God’s words were revealed in the form of Jesus, a living being. The words of God cannot be a dead one. So dead that can be contained in a limited pages of one book. There is nothing logical whatsoever that the whole teaching of God can be contained in a single book, no matter how many ways you interpret it.

Good for you if you don’t add anything more about your Quran and Sunnah. Without additions, the world has already had problems from those who misinterpret the Quran. Let alone if you can add things uncontrollably of the teaching from Quran.
**Sorry. Where is that living word "Jesus " now?? Is he living now? You are right. The God is the living God. His words live as He likes. People try to play havoc with the words of God. As they did wth Jesus, the living word of God. They dragged and nailed him to the cross.

That was done by those in his time. When he went away, the later people played with his teachings. Please do not mind. It happens like that with all religions with the passage of time.**
 
Sorry. Where is that living word "Jesus " now?? Is he living now? You are right. The God is the living God. His words live as He likes. People try to play havoc with the words of God. As they did wth Jesus, the living word of God. They dragged and nailed him to the cross.
Do not worry, dear planten, Jesus is alive now and guiding His Church through His Holy and life-giving Spirit. He promised to be with us until the end of ages and we trust in His words.
**
That was done by those in his time. When he went away, the later people played with his teachings. Please do not mind. It happens like that with all religions with the passage of time.**
Could you please be more specific and explain who played with Jesus’ teachings and how those unknown people managed to destroy His truth?

Do you really believe “it happens like that with all religions with the passage of time”? If you really do, this means Islam, as one of the religions, is not exempt from your accusations. Your brave allegation and generalization are almost making you a devout Atheist. Be careful 😉
 
The issue of Jesus’ death is important to Muslims because Muslims believe in Jesus’s return at the end of time. Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified but was raised bodily to heaven by God. Depending on the interpretation of the following verse, scholars have abstracted different opinions. Some believe that Jesus was not on the cross long enough to die, due to circumstantial reasons, according to the Bible, while others opine that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified. Also according to some, God does not use deceit and therefore they contend that simply no crucifixion occurred. The basis of any of these beliefs is the following verse in the Qur’an:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 4:157]

Most Muslims believe Jesus was raised to heaven alive by God. However, a small minority of Islamic scholars argue that he was indeed rescued but died before his ascension.[1]

Contents [hide]
1 Jesus lives
1.1 Substitution interpretation
1.2 Swoon hypothesis
2 Jesus died
3 Esoteric interpretations
4 See also
5 References
6 External links

Jesus lives
On the interpretation of those scholars who deny the crucifixion, the Encyclopedia of Islam writes:

The denial, furthermore, is in perfect agreement with the logic of the Qur’an. The Biblical stories reproduced in it (e.g., Job, Moses, Joseph etc.) and the episodes relating to the history of the beginning of Islam demonstrate that it is “God’s practice” (sunnat Allah) to make faith triumph finally over the forces of evil and adversity. “So truly with hardship comes ease”, (XCIV, 5, 6). For Jesus to die on the cross would have meant the triumph of his executioners; but the Quran asserts that they undoubtedly failed: “Assuredly God will defend those who believe”; (XXII, 49). He confounds the plots of the enemies of Christ (III, 54).

On the interpretation of the minority of Muslims who accept the crucifixion, Mahmoud Ayoub for example states:

The Qur’an is not here speaking about a man, righteous and wronged though he may be, but about the Word of God who was sent to earth and returned to God. Thus the denial of killing of Jesus is a denial of the power of men to vanquish and destroy the divine Word, which is for ever victorious.[2]

Substitution interpretation

While Christians believe Jesus was crucified, Muslims believe he was raised to Heaven without being put on the cross and Allah (God) transformed another person to appear exactly like Jesus who was crucified instead of Jesus. Jesus ascended bodily to Heaven, being in a state of stasis until his Second coming in the End days.

The substitute has been a great source of interest among Muslims. Two categories of people emerge: volunteers and victims. One interpretation is that Allah (God) used the substitution to punish one of Jesus’ enemies. Judas Iscariot, Jesus’ traitor, is most often cited, including by the medieval Gospel of Barnabas. Other possibilities are Titawus, a Roman soldier, or an anonymous guard put to watch Jesus when arrested.

The converse interpretation is that Allah (God) asked for someone to volunteer to be crucified instead of Jesus. Simon of Cyrene is the most commonly accepted person to have done this, perhaps because according to the Synoptic gospels he was compelled by the Romans to carry Jesus’ cross for him, (there is no indication in the Gospels that he volunteered). Al-Baidawi writes that Jesus told his disciples in advance that whoever volunteered would go to heaven. The following narration recorded in the Qur’anic exegesis of Ibn Kathir is graded as authentic by orthodox Sunni scholars and provides a plausible explanation for the Qur’anic verse related to the substitution of Jesus;

Ibn Abbas said, “Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, ‘There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.’ He then asked, ‘Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).’ One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, ‘You will be that man,’ and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus’ followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, ‘Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.’ Another group, the Nestorians, said, ‘The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.’ Another group, the Muslims, said, ‘The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.’ The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad (Peace be upon him).” An-Nasai, Al-Kubra, 6:489

(Continued)
 
(Continued)

Swoon hypothesis

In the swoon hypothesis, Jesus was crucified but did not die. He fainted (swooned) and the Romans thought he was dead. He later awoke and a rumor naturally started that he had risen from the dead. The interpretation that Jesus taken down alive from the cross is considered valid, linguisticly, even if it’s not the common interpretation. Prominent Islamic scholars like Ahmed Deedat have written, at length and in extreme detail on this belief. In his book, CRUCIFIXION OR CRUCI-FICTION, Jesus was not on the cross long enough to die, due to circumstantial reasons, which he establishes using verses of Old and New Testaments.[3].

Also, supporting the swoon hypothesis, Shabir Ally said [4]

We see that the quranic text ends with a summary which says wama qataloohu yaqeenan, “they did not kill him definitely”, Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi, “but God raised him to himself.” I take this to be a summary of the whole discussion on what has happened to Jesus. There was a plot to kill him but they neither killed him nor crucified him, crucified him in the sense of killing him by crucifixion. That is a definition that has been given in Tafsir-Ul-Qur’an by Abdul Majid Daryabadi, which is a Sunni Tafsir on the Qur’an.

Jesus died

Yusuf ibn Abd-al-Barr, an 11th century Maliki jurist, writes that there have been differences of opinion on this issue[5] and Sunnis accept the second coming of Jesus only through individual reports by narrators who are of sound character - a view supported by majority of Muslims.[6]. (see Jesus’ second coming) However, some Islamic scholars like Sheikh Mohammed Al-Ghazali, Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, and Amin Ahsan Islahi argue that Jesus was indeed rescued but was given death by God before he was ascended bodily as God never allows to dishonor His messengers, even their dead bodies.[7][1][8][9]

Thomas McElwain states that the context of the verse is clearly within the discussion of Jewish ridicule of Christians, not in context of whether or not Jesus died. He continues that the text could be interpreted as denying the death of Jesus at the hands of Jews rather than denying his death. He however adds that “the expressions against the crucifixion are strong, so that to interpret the meaning for Romans rather than Jews to have committed the act is also suspect” and that if this meaning is correct, “it would have been more effective to state that the Romans killed Jesus, rather than to empha*sise that the Jews were not in possession of the facts.”

Verses used in support of the contention that Jesus died are listed below.

5.117
According to some translations, Jesus says in the Qur’an:

I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, (literally mutawafik) Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 5:117]

The majority of Muslims translate verb “mutawafik” (متوفيك) “to terminate a period of time” while others translate it “to die.” Islamic scholars like Javed Ahmed Ghamidi and Amin Ahsan Islahi consider it as physical death of Jesus, and hence question the return of Jesus.[7][8] Geoffrey Parrinder discusses different interpretations of the Qur’anic verse [Qur’an 19:33] and writes in his conclusion that ‘the cumulative effect of the Qur’anic verse is strongly in favor of a real death’.[10]

For understanding the traditional translation, see this article.

3.55

O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court…

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 3:55] as per QXP translation

The following translations or translators translate “to die” [11]

QXP translation
Muhammad Asad
George Sale
Mohamed Ahmed*
Maulana Muhammad Ali
Free Minds Muslims A Qur’an alone translation
JM Rodwell

However, majority of Quranic translators including Yusuf Ali, M. H. Shakir and Marmaduke William Pickthall, do not translate as “to die”.

3.144

According to Qur’an, every prophet (messenger) dies. However, this verse is still valid to Islamic view of Jesus, as he will descend before the Day of Judgment and die a natural death [12] (see second coming).

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already died before him…

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 3:144]

Some of the companions thought that the Prophet was not dead. Abu Bakr went in, and seeing that life had departed, ascended the pulpit and read this verse, which had a magical effect upon his hearers, all of them being convinced that the Prophet had died, as all prophets had died before him. . . . This verse affords a conclusive proof that Jesus Christ was also dead; otherwise Abu Bakr’s argument could not have silenced the doubters of the Prophet’s death."

Esoteric interpretations

An alternative, more esoteric interpretation is expounded by certain Islamic philosophers and some Sufi and Isma’ili commentators. They interpret the Quranic passages on the death of Jesus thus: the Jews intended to destroy the person of Jesus completely; in fact, they crucified only his nasut (material being), his lahut (spiritual being) remained alive.[13]

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death

And there ya go, Islam’s view on Jesus’ death. The article on Islam’s view of Jesus himself is also very interesting and shows how Mohemmed really got his information wrong about Jesus. I wonder if the angel he was talking to got his sources wrong?

EDIT: It’s strange that Muslims ignore the fact that Jesus’ heart was pierced by a lance, and blood and water gushed out - which, in medical terms, means he died. However, the authors of the gospels wouldn’t have known that in their time. So, by all accounts, Jesus really did die on the Cross.
 
Why would it not? If Jesus was crucified, then they must ask why would God abandon the prayers of a prophet and subject him to the cursed cross. Further, if the Qur’an does say that “They crucified him not, they killed him not,” then someone is wrong.

Further, if he did die, how does that fit the idea that he was not a sacrifice? Also, what about his resurection?

If he died just like it says in the Bible, how can they be sure he did not rise again?
😊 🤷

ahh my never ending question. Lets see, disregarding the Islamic standpoint…why would God allow his “sons” prayers to go unanswered!!!

I never will get that. (This is not a personal attack)

I wonder, if we believe as you point out, that he would abandon a prophets prayers as inconcievable…why on Earth, in His name would he not attend to his very sons prayers?
 
😊 🤷

ahh my never ending question. Lets see, disregarding the Islamic standpoint…why would God allow his “sons” prayers to go unanswered!!!

I never will get that. (This is not a personal attack)

I wonder, if we believe as you point out, that he would abandon a prophets prayers as inconcievable…why on Earth, in His name would he not attend to his very sons prayers?
The prayer issue is a non-issue. Please read his entire prayer. It ends with “Not my will but your will be done.” IN other words, no matter how much I do not want this, I want YOUR will to be over me. His prayers were answered in the fullest.

Being a Christian in the truest sense means dying to your desires and living only for God. It is the hardest thing to do. Jesus did not want to suffer and die on that cross, but he knew that it was his reason for being. He had to conform his will to God’s.
 
Do not worry, dear planten, Jesus is alive now and guiding His Church through His Holy and life-giving Spirit. He promised to be with us until the end of ages and we trust in His words.

Could you please be more specific and explain who played with Jesus’ teachings and how those unknown people managed to destroy His truth?

Do you really believe “it happens like that with all religions with the passage of time”? If you really do, this means Islam, as one of the religions, is not exempt from your accusations. Your brave allegation and generalization are almost making you a devout Atheist. Be careful 😉
Angelos, I am sorry to say that I had told you the truth. We have the bible. We read it. Jesus is there talking and explaining things. He did well but the church has almost reversed everything that Jesus did or said. That is the reality.

Church is no more with Jesus and Jesus no more with church. If Jesus ever returned to this earth again (which he will never do), he will not be able to recognise his own religion (and his own teachings).
 
Angelos, I am sorry to say that I had told you the truth. We have the bible. We read it. Jesus is there talking and explaining things. He did well but the church has almost reversed everything that Jesus did or said. That is the reality.

Church is no more with Jesus and Jesus no more with church. If Jesus ever returned to this earth again (which he will never do), he will not be able to recognise his own religion (and his own teachings).
I am repeating my request: Could you please write down which of Jesus’ teachings were supposedly distorted/reversed by His Church? I would also like to know what your criterion for Jesus’ “true” teachings is and what has led you to your conclusion?

Thanks 🙂
 
Angelos, I am sorry to say that I had told you the truth. We have the bible. We read it. Jesus is there talking and explaining things. He did well but the church has almost reversed everything that Jesus did or said. That is the reality.

isn’t it amazing that when it comes to Islamic teachings, Muslims after Muhammad did not corrupt anything, they did their best to pass on the true teachings of Muhammad, but when it comes to Christians, not a single human cared for Jesus’ words and all Christians in different countries and churches conspired to corrupt what they believe in? …is that supposed to be a miracle of Islam?
Church is no more with Jesus and Jesus no more with church.
 
The issue of Jesus’ death is important to Muslims because Muslims believe in Jesus’s return at the end of time. Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified but was raised bodily to heaven by God. Depending on the interpretation of the following verse, scholars have abstracted different opinions. Some believe that Jesus was not on the cross long enough to die, due to circumstantial reasons, according to the Bible, while others opine that God gave someone Jesus’ appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified. Also according to some, God does not use deceit and therefore they contend that simply no crucifixion occurred. The basis of any of these beliefs is the following verse in the Qur’an:

That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

—Qur’an, [Qur’an 4:157]

Most Muslims believe Jesus was raised to heaven alive by God. However, a small minority of Islamic scholars argue that he was indeed rescued but died before his ascension.[1] (/quote]

**You are right. Some one misled the Muslims about Jesus not being on the cross himself. That it was some one else on the cross. This was a grave mistake of the Muslims to follow that line. It was not true at all.
  1. It is not mentioned in the Quran that jesus was not put on the cross. The Hadith does not support it.
  2. This substitution theory does not suit the christians too. So I cannot understand why they bring it up again and again. Do the christians believe that it was not Jesus himself on the cross? Surely not. So this matter (chapter) should be closed.
  3. Quran is giving exact life story of Jesus, that he was a mortal man, a prophet of God. He used to pray to his God and told others to pray to that God.
  4. Church people have altered all information about Jesus and his real teachings. He was put on the cross for a short time. He fainted and appeared to be dead.
  5. Even Pilate was surprised when Joseph (The rich man) went to ask for the body of Jesus. Pilate said,“Has he died so quickly?”
  6. The visit of the angel to the Pilate’s wife (dream) is a clear indication that God did not want that Jesus should die on the cross. Otherwise the visit of the angel becomes useless.
  7. It is not necessary that Jesus die a cursed death on the cross. He knew it was a cursed (bad) death and he was praying to avoid it… But the church does not know it. Why? The Quran also knows all about it and says that Jesus did not die on the cross.
  8. We Muslims can say that the cross was broken but not Jesus. Jesus was safe. It was the cross that failed to kill Jesus.
There are so many angles that the christian friends should explore. The Quran is the exact word of God and provides the answers if any one is ready to listen. But the substitute theory is out of circulation now because it has many flaws. Thanks.**
 
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