The Rabbis of Italy Don't Like The Pope

[Eucharisted]

ROMA, January 16, 2009 – In the area of geopolitics, the war in Gaza has sharpened the disagreements between the Catholic Church and Israel, as www.chiesa showed in its article on January 4.

The hope is that Benedict XVI’s trip to the Holy Land, thought to be scheduled for May, will diminish the mutual misunderstandings. Meanwhile, however, mainly because of Israeli intransigence, there is no progress in the negotiations to implement the 1993 accords between the Holy See and Israel. Nor is there any sign of the willingness to remove from the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem the caption dismissing Pius XII as an accomplice of the Nazi extermination of the Jews.

But even on the most strictly religious terrain, the relationship between the two sides is strewn with obstacles. For January 17, the Italian bishops’ conference has announced a “Day for the exploration and development of dialogue between Catholics and Jews.” This day has been held every year since 1990, since 2001 the Italian Jewish community has been promoting it together with the bishops, and in 2005 both sides agreed on a ten-year program of reflection on the Ten Commandments. But this time, the Catholic Church is alone. The assembly of Italian rabbis, headed by Giuseppe Laras, has decided to “suspend” Jewish participation in the event.

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1. The Pope appears to be a sign of contradiction. Good!
2. If the Rabbis wish to harm the relations between the Church and Judaism, they will have to answer for that on Judgment Day.
3. The Jews didn’t like the traditional Good Friday prayer, so the Church changed it. Now there are Rabbis who don’t like the new prayer. Well, make up your mind! Do you want the traditional prayer or the new one? And if the Pope changes the prayer again for the sake of dialogue, it will prove the Church is a merciful mother.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I can’t really blame the rabbis for being mad.

Since Vatican II they’ve been fed this two-faced theology, where we write ambiguous prayers which can mean two things. We tell the traditionalists it means one thing, and we tell the Jews it means another.

The Good Friday prayer we use in the Ordinary form of the mass can be interpreted as either calling for the conversion of the Jews, or it can be interpreted as recognizing that the Jews already have a saving covenant and don’t need conversion. And what’s worse, the Jews were specifically told by certain cardinals that we recognize their covenant with God and that they do not need conversion.

Who can blame them? I would rather point the finger at liberal church leaders who misled them as to church teaching.

 

[PeterK]

I believe the Italian rabbis are expressing displeasure with Vatican condemnation of the recent Gaza assault and perhaps posturing to make the Pope’s upcoming visit to the Holy Land unsuccessful - diplomatically, thematically, etc.

PeterK

 

[reggieM]

In their reply, Laras, Luzzatto, and Nahum concluded: “It should be remembered that relations between Judaism and Islam have generally been more productive and serene than those between Judaism and Christianity.”

History has its indelible influence. But revisited today, in the thick of the war in Gaza, this tribute to Islam and this swipe against the Church sound surreal.

I agree that it does sound surreal.

 

[Father_of_9]

It just seems strange to me that someone from another religion can think that another religion’s prayers or doctrines must be changed because they don’t agree with it. I’m guessing that there are Jewish prayers and Muslim prayers that contain statements which Catholics don’t agree with. But I don’t hear any of our leaders crying out for them to change their prayers. Maybe it happens, but it’s not in the news like this. It seems that Catholics are always taken to task for not respecting other religions, but it’s never reciprocated.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I can understand the Jews feelings on the prayer.

Consider if some one told you, “I’m praying that you’ll have a conversion of heart and follow the true path to God.”

Do you think, as a devote Catholic, you’d be a little offended?

Jim

 

[CatholicCid]

I can understand the Jews feelings on the prayer.

Consider if some one told you, “I’m praying that you’ll have a conversion of heart and follow the true path to God.”

Do you think, as a devote Catholic, you’d be a little offended?

Jim

I’d be glad to know they thought enough of me to pray for me
And I’d let them know I’d be praying for them.

 

[PeterK]

If the Italian rabbis want to pull out and “pause for reflection” that is their business. Take your time. Hope it helps. See ya when you decide to come back.

It’s unfortunate a mountain is made out of an anthill in the meantime. Here is what all the fuss is about.

“May the Lord Our God enlighten their hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, the savior of all men.”

And it continues with this prayer :

“Almighty and everlasting God, you who want all men to be saved and to reach the awareness of the truth, graciously grant that, with the fullness of peoples entering into your Church, all Israel may be saved.”

The prayer is said only once a year on Good Friday and only in the 1962 Missal - which means you have to go to a church approved by the local bishop to celebrate the latin mass to hear it in that one mass on that one day. This prayer has been revised. It used to say this…

Until one year ago… ] …the Latin text appeals for prayer on behalf of the Jews, “that our Lord and God may lift the veil from their hearts, that they may recognize Jesus Christ, our Lord.”

And immediately after, the prayer continued:

“Almighty and eternal God, who do not exclude from your mercy even Jews: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of your truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.”

What the vast majority of Catholics will hear on Good Friday is the current prayer from the missal of Paul VI from 1970… “may [God] help them [the Jews] to increase always in love of his name and in fidelity to his covenant.”

The article from which I gleaned this information can be found here.

PeterK

 

[Father_of_9]

The bottom line issue is whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Someone once posed the question: Jesus - Lord, Lunatic or Liar? If a person truly believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah promised to God’s people, then it doesn’t really matter what other people think. Be respectful? Yes! But don’t apologize or compromise for the truth. Yes, Jesus is a stumbling block for many people. We should all pray everyday for the conversion of all non-believers.

 

[PeterK]

I liken Catholic-Jewish relations to the uncomfortable situation of a happily married person (the Catholic) being in a room full recent divorcees. The source of the happy person’s joy - the spouse, the marriage - is a source of profound irritation for the divorcees. Everything, however, will be just fine as long as the married person doesn’t bring up their wonderful spouse or enduring marriage in conversation.

Don’t read too much in this off-the-cuff analogy, it just means it’s always going to be a bit of an awkward relationship.

PeterK

 

[cathgal]

Well, the rabbis in Jesus’ time didn’t like him either.

Why would it be surprising if their ‘descendants’ don’t like His vicar.

 

[cathgal]

I can understand the Jews feelings on the prayer.

Consider if some one told you, “I’m praying that you’ll have a conversion of heart and follow the true path to God.”

Do you think, as a devote Catholic, you’d be a little offended?

Jim

Of course not. We all need a conversion of heart one way or another.

 

[prodigal-sun]

I can understand the Jews feelings on the prayer.

Consider if some one told you, “I’m praying that you’ll have a conversion of heart and follow the true path to God.”

Do you think, as a devote Catholic, you’d be a little offended?

Jim

Offended? why would I be offended by that. There is not a person on earth that doesn’t need a conversion of heart and to follow God’s will. Some more than others!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Offended? why would I be offended by that. There is not a person on earth that doesn’t need a conversion of heart and to follow God’s will. Some more than others!

But the presumption of the person praying for you, is that you are not following God and are in need of redemption, by their prayers.

Consider if Buddhist created a rite which includes praying that Catholics get over their stagnet rigid beliefs and come to true enlightenment,

Would you be offended? Be honest.

Jim

 

[nan]

Honestly, no, I wouldn’t be offended.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I can understand the Jews feelings on the prayer.

Consider if some one told you, “I’m praying that you’ll have a conversion of heart and follow the true path to God.”

Do you think, as a devote Catholic, you’d be a little offended?

Jim

No, I would actually be very happy for someone of any religion to pray for me.

Would it bother you if a Jew prayed for your conversion to Judaism?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

No, I would actually be very happy for someone of any religion to pray for me.

Would it bother you if a Jew prayed for your conversion to Judaism?

In the context of them wanting to get together with me to dialog ?

Yes, because it would say they have no respect for my religious beliefs, and that they believe they are false.

Jim

 

[Neil_Anthony]

In the context of them wanting to get together with me to dialog ?

Yes, because it would say they have no respect for my religious beliefs, and that they believe they are false.
Jim

You didn’t already know that Jews believe your beliefs to be false?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You didn’t already know that Jews believe your beliefs to be false?

They respect my beliefs as they ask that I respect theirs

And thats the point of their ending dialog with the Vatican. Its their taking offense to Pope Benedict’s return of the prayer for Jews to convert to the Church, which to them, is disrespectful of their beliefs.

I understand their why they are offended.

Jim

 

[LRThunder]

They respect my beliefs as they ask that I respect theirs

And thats the point of their ending dialog with the Vatican. Its their taking offense to Pope Benedict’s return of the prayer for Jews to convert to the Church, which to them, is disrespectful of their beliefs.

I understand their why they are offended.

Jim

They may be offended, but often the truth is offensive to those not wanting to listen to it.