The Rapture?

[frnate]

What exactly is the Catholic Church’s grounds for taking Apocolyptic literature figuratively?

Why shouldn’t we take figurative (Apocolyptic) literature figuratively?

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[frnate]

I also cannot claim to understand Revelation completely but the issue of Amillennialism, and Post-Millennialism does concern me a great deal.

I started to ask you why but I see you have elaborated.

I believe it is imperitive that we have a clear understanding of:

1. The Church age dispensation
2. The tribulation
3. The second coming
4. The Millennial Reign.

1. I never could swallow dispensationalism and I was taught it from the cradle.
2. If you’re not going to be here for it why do you care?
3. 1 Thessalonians 4 IS the second coming and there ain’t no third.
4. What’s the difference between a thousand years and a thousand hills? (Psalm 50:10)

If that were the correct interpretation of end time events, then a person who believed in Post-Millennialism, or A-Millennialism who invariably believed that the next event to take place was the return of Christ to set up His kingdom… would accept the antichrist as the real Christ sitting in the temple. They would be deceived into exalting the antichrist as Christ himself.

1. Your conclusion seems to be predicated on the assumption that ONLY post-mills and a-mills will be “Left Behind.”(Do I need to put a copyright notice with that?)
2. Wouldn’t only NON-Christians be left if you’re right?
3. Or must we believe in the rapture in order to participate?
4. Can we be Christians if we don’t?
5. If we must believe in the rapture to be Christians then wouldn’t that be requiring something in addition to the sinner’s prayer to be “saved”?

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[bibleapologist]

frnate,

Originally Posted by bibleapologist
If that were the correct interpretation of end time events, then a person who believed in Post-Millennialism, or A-Millennialism who invariably believed that the next event to take place was the return of Christ to set up His kingdom… would accept the antichrist as the real Christ sitting in the temple. They would be deceived into exalting the antichrist as Christ himself.

1. Your conclusion seems to be predicated on the assumption that ONLY post-mills and a-mills will be “Left Behind.”(Do I need to put a copyright notice with that?)
2. Wouldn’t only NON-Christians be left if you’re right?
3. Or must we believe in the rapture in order to participate?
4. Can we be Christians if we don’t?
5. If we must believe in the rapture to be Christians then wouldn’t that be requiring something in addition to the sinner’s prayer to be “saved”?

Non-Christians would be left because they are not the bride of Christ… Consider the parable of the 10 virgins… the wise virgins put oil in their lamps (symbolic of the Holy Spirit), the foolish virgins who didn’t have oil in thier lamps were not ready when the bridegroom came…

You must be saved to be ready for the rapture, your being raptured doesn’t hinge on whether you believe you will be raptured, or whether or not you have the correct view on the millennial reign… only that you have oil in your lamp (the Holy Spirit within), to be saved is to be “sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”; and “sealed unto the day of redemption”.

As for question #5, you don’t have to believe in the rapture to be a Christian… you only have to believe in Christ…

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

apophasis,

Amillennialism (the spiritualizing of the Davidic kingdom), which Catholics and most Protestants adhere to, is a departure from Biblical (Divine) revelation: the words and expectation of Christ Himself, the O.T. prophets and writers of the N.T. Until one first realizes and accepts this truth, he can never be expected to understand the Biblical revelation of the Rapture. And debating with RCs on this subject will alway be futile since they will not, nor cannot, accept anything their magesterium has not. Which can be compared to the Jew in Christ’s day saying, “although all You say and do points to you as Messiah, we will not embrace you unless our religious leaders do.”

Well said.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Church Militant,

So says you…and John Nelson Darby, but none of the ECF taught this and they expected Our Lord at any time under tremendous tribulation.

Back to the ECF’s again… I contend that the Earliest of Church Fathers (the Apostles) did in fact teach that the rapture was imminent, and that is evident by a careful study of their letters.

It’s not there historically. It’s not there scripturally. It’s error and may well lead to the ruin of a great many souls when things don’t go as they have been taught to expect.

I disagree, and the words of Jesus disagree with you. In fact, the only people who are going to regret thier apathetic attitude on that day will be those who were not prepared… Just like in the days of Noah, people were eating and drinking (going about their daily lives) scoffing at Noah for proclaiming judgement…

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

In a perfect illustration of the rapture, the flood waters of judgement came upon the earth to destroy those unbelievers… but just beforehand God commanded Noah and His family to enter the ark… and God shut him in.

Gen 7:16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

Gen 7:16 is referenced by:

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

After the door was shut, the ark rose up as an illustration of us rising to meet Him in the air…

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the flood God gave a token of a covenant of mercy… a rainbow that He would never destroy the earth with water again…

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Which is the same thing we who are raptured will see in heaven when we stand before the throne…

Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[Church_Militant]

Church Militant,

Back to the ECF’s again… I contend that the Earliest of Church Fathers (the Apostles) did in fact teach that the rapture was imminent, and that is evident by a careful study of their letters.

Only on your interpretation of some New Testament passages, John. I get a completely different reading from the same passages that you cite. What makes your interp more valid than mine? I have the historical evidence on my side as well as the plain sense of the passages in question.

I disagree, and the words of Jesus disagree with you. In fact, the only people who are going to regret thier apathetic attitude on that day will be those who were not prepared… Just like in the days of Noah, people were eating and drinking (going about their daily lives) scoffing at Noah for proclaiming judgement…

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. I’m really glad you brought up that verse in Matthew John because if you look at the bolded part of the verse…you see that those who were taken away, were not the faithful believers. I think the interpratation of those who believe in The Rapture have it messed up.

In a perfect illustration of the rapture, the flood waters of judgement came upon the earth to destroy those unbelievers… but just beforehand God commanded Noah and His family to enter the ark… and God shut him in.

Gen 7:16 is referenced by:
After the door was shut, the ark rose up as an illustration of us rising to meet Him in the air…

This is a long interpretative stretch here, as I pointed out above…

The rainbow stuff is really irrelevent to a discussion of the Rapture…the only thing I wonder about is this.

Rainbows are multicolored, and I know of none that are not. What St. John seems to be describing is actually green because that’s what emeralds are.http://www.gemstone.org/gem-by-gem/stones/Emerald-056.jpg
It may be that St. John is simply describing an emerald arch over God’s throne.春日野结衣免费观看,卡一卡二卡三免费网站,日本欧美成人高清电影,亚洲国产在线2020最新
The peace of the Lord be always with you,

 

[Pryority7]

Priority7,

First of all, you are assuming that all PreMillennialists are also Pre-trib, which isn’t the case. But, nevertheless, the best way to resolve the issue is to make sure you are truly a child of God… to make sure you are saved. If you are saved you will know Jesus’ voice, and (unless you disregard His voice) you won’t be fooled by an imposter.

In the last days there is going to be a “strong delusion to believe a lie”, there will be alot of people who arrogantly denied that they could be deceived… but they will.

John
www.gideonsword.net

I understand completely the Post-Mill, Pre-Mill, Pre-Trib, Post-Trib scenarios.
So if I’m “saved” in your definition of the term, I would hear His voice and I would understand the Rapture thing? How about all those years when I DID believe in the Rapture? His voice wasn’t there? Was I saved then, and now I’m not? Let me guess…I wasn’t saved to begin with, right?
B.A. As I admire your intellect with all due respect it does not fall right with the truth, as well as simple logic.
P7

 

[frnate]

frnate,
Non-Christians would be left…your being raptured doesn’t hinge on whether you believe you will be raptured, or whether or not you have the correct view on the millennial reign…As for question #5, you don’t have to believe in the rapture to be a Christian…you only have to believe in Christ…
Consider the parable of the 10 virgins…

Okay, I was trying (unsuccessfully it seems) to illustrate that belief in the rapture is irrelevant. Let me put it this way. If only non-Christians will be left, why is it SOOO important to you that Christians believe in the rapture? If being raptured doesn’t hinge on whether or not one believes in the event as you describe it, why should it be as important to us as it is to you? Our time could be better spent preaching the love, rather than the wrath, of God.

Additionally I am curious to know your response to these two things:
Why is it imperative that we have a clear understanding of the tribulation if we’re not going to be here for it?

What are the similarities between a thousand years (Rev. 20) and a thousand hills? (Psalm 50:10)

It’s interesting that you mention the parable of the ten virgins and point out that the oil represents the Holy Spirit and then say:

to be saved is to be “sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”; and “sealed unto the day of redemption”.

Catholics are sealed unto the day of redemption with the Holy Spirit of promise when the Bishop anoints their heads with the oil of the Holy Spirit at confirmation.

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[gardenswithkids]

It is interesting to me that Roman Catholics can take a passage of scripture like John 6 so literally (but obviously symbolic), while at the same time bolster their A-Millennial views by claiming the majority of John’s Revelation as symbolic (which you also take literally in the elements of mass)… very confusing.

What do you say about this passage…?
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This must occur** before **the return of Christ in all His glory, because during the tribulation, we are with Christ.

I believe those verses literally, but I don’t think they say what you think they say. I believe “for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven” means that the Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, will descend from heaven. The heavenly and angelic voices and trump of God points out the glory of His desending from heaven. “The dead in Christ shall rise first” refers to the resurrection of the dead, which we believe will take place literally. You can see these beliefs in our Creed when we say: “we believe He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end.”

How can you read the words “for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout…” and come to the conclusion that these events will take place before He returns in all His glory??? Thessalonians *describes *His return in glory.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I believe it is imperitive that we have a clear understanding of: 1. The Church age dispensation 2. The tribulation 3. The second coming 4. The Millennial Reign.

If we get these end time events out of order we stand the chance of being in a postition of exalting the Antichrist as Christ… which BTW is exactly what Satan wants us to do. Let me explain…

If I am right in my interpretation, and at the end of the Church age dispensation there arises one called the Antichrist who sits in the temple showing himself he is God (2 Thess. 2:4), and at after that the tribulation period, then the second coming, and finally the 1000 year Millennial reign of Christ.

If that were the correct interpretation of end time events, then a person who believed in Post-Millennialism, or A-Millennialism who invariably believed that the next event to take place was the return of Christ to set up His kingdom… would accept the antichrist as the real Christ sitting in the temple. They would be deceived into exalting the antichrist as Christ himself.

This would unquestionably be a dangerous situation to be in.

Oh, that little word “if”. I don’t believe you’re right, but I’ll play along.

Okay, if you are right, how do we know that our great-great-great grandparents weren’t “left behind” many hundred years ago? If you are right, how can we know that those events haven’t already taken place but not recorded in history books because of the huge deception? What if you got just a little bit of the specifics wrong (because somethings out to decieve us) and therefore you can’t recognize the tribulation while it’s happening to you right now?

I ask you to consider those questions those questions in all sincerity. How do you know you haven’t already been “left behind”?

 

[Pryority7]

I believe those verses literally, but I don’t think they say what you think they say. I believe “for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven” means that the Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, will descend from heaven. The heavenly and angelic voices and trump of God points out the glory of His desending from heaven. “The dead in Christ shall rise first” refers to the resurrection of the dead, which we believe will take place literally. You can see these beliefs in our Creed when we say: “we believe He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end.”

How can you read the words “for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout…” and come to the conclusion that these events will take place before He returns in all His glory??? Thessalonians *describes *His return in glory.

I can tell you how he comes to the conclusion.
Only the “saved” hear the “shout”. Only the "saved’ hear the “trumpet”. It’s a secret coming.
The only problem is I don’t see how “secret” it’s going to be when the whole world is in chaos due to the fact that there are several billion people missing. With all these books out endorsing this idea, it will be quite easy for the unbelievers to read “Left Behind” and ID the antichrist when he shows up…unless of course they burn down every Barnes and Noble down before that happens…
P7

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Priority7,
In the last days there is going to be a “strong delusion to believe a lie”, there will be alot of people who arrogantly denied that they could be deceived… but they will.

www.gideonsword.net

oh my! It’s already started back with the protestant reformation.

Just kidding!!!

 

[spauline]

oh my! It’s already started back with the protestant reformation.

Just kidding!!!

actually, you’ve touched upon a point in which Catholics can go on the OFFENSIVE in this regard. Already a priest from TAN books wrote a speculative analysis of the apoc in which he conjectures the fifth trumpet (the first “great woe”) was in fact the Protestant Rebellion. I have taken this conjecture and built off of Kramer in an even deeper fashion, if you care to read it, and in a way that uses sacramental theology, which is certainly intrinsically and deeply connected to the issue of Christian disunity, which is, according to our Savior Himself in John 17, intimately connected to the world’s ability to accept the Gospel. I can give you the link, if you like!

blessings!
scott

 

[deb1]

. Until one first realizes and accepts this truth, he can never be expected to understand the Biblical revelation of the Rapture. And debating with RCs on this subject will alway be futile since they will not, nor cannot, accept anything their magesterium has not. Which can be compared to the Jew in Christ’s day saying, “although all You say and do points to you as Messiah, we will not embrace you unless our religious leaders do.”

I just wanted to comment that many of the Catholics on this forum are converts from Protestantism. We have sat on both sides of the fence when it comes to Rapture belief. It was only after lots of study, thought and prayer that many of us became Catholic. Our belief in the church isn’t blind.

 

[riverman]

All I know is I want to be one of the ones left behind! Listen to John Martignoni and you will see why being left behind is the way to go!

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s one very good reason not to believe in all this pretribulation rapture teaching. Look here what Our Lord tells us.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light. 25 And the stars of heaven shall be falling down, and the powers that are in heaven, shall be moved. 26 **And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds, with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. ** There’s what these people confuse with their “rapture”.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[Sabda]

We need bumper stickers!

**In case of Rapture, I’m staying! **

His talks are great. I have gotten to were I take notes when listening.

 

[Church_Militant]

We need bumper stickers!

In case of Rapture, I’m staying

!

His talks are great. I have gotten to were I take notes when listening. [SIGN]I love that![/SIGN]
Did you miss that he already has his notes on his site? HERE.
Pax tecum,

 

[NotWorthy]

We need bumper stickers!

In case of Rapture, I’m staying!

His talks are great. I have gotten to were I take notes when listening.

He’s got some notes, although incomplete for my tastes, but they are a great place to start. He lists all the Bible verses, so you can cut and paste them into your note.

Good Luck!

 

[bibleapologist]

frnate,

Why is it imperative that we have a clear understanding of the tribulation if we’re not going to be here for it?

If we don’t have a clear understanding of the rapture… for those who are truly saved it doesn’t really matter, like you said… I guess they will be pleasantly surprised.

It is the danger of expecting the return of Christ from a Post-millennial, or amillennial / preterist viewpoint that worries me. Again, those saved people who believe these scenarios will not be personally effected… but the unsaved will, and those saved people who are teaching these millennial views are contributing to Satan’s conspiracy to have himself worshipped. Those who are not saved, and are not taken up in the rapture will have the perfect mindest to affectionately embrace the Antichrist… because they are expecting Christ to reign in the temple.

Of course it is not really Jesus, but the “Abomination of Desolation” (Antichrist), whom Satan will use to vicariously become like the Most High (Isaiah 14). A-Millennialism, and Post-Millennialism are both devices of Satan to have the unsaved world accept him as; the Jews’ Messiah, Mohammed, Jesus Christ, new agers’ “Lord Maitreya”, Hindu’s “Ishavara”, Confucious, Krishna.

What are the similarities between a thousand years (Rev. 20) and a thousand hills? (Psalm 50:10)

None at all (except the word “thousand”), For God to claim He owns the cattle on a “thousand” hillsides is to mean ‘all the cattle’ in the whole world… no one can deny that. But to say Rev. 20 John is using the word “thousand” the same way as if to mean “forever” or “for all time” is a faulty interpretation… verse 2 says that Satan is bound for a “thousand” years… but he, as presently, has been active according to historical accounts and according to scripture. So the term “thousand” should not be confused as meaning “forever” or “for all time”.

John
www.gideonsword.net