The Rapture?

[LittleDeb]

Hi,
What:bigyikes: If the rapture is true why would you want to be left behind? I dont get the logic or illogic.

If you listen to Martignoni’s talk he explains it very well. Noah and his family were left behind. Lot and his daughters were left behind. Being left behind is God’s reward in those cases.

Here’s the link again. It’s free but support him if you can. His talks are great!

biblechristiansociety.com/account/download?return=%2Fdownload%2Fmp3%2Frapture_and_the_bible.mp3

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi,
What:bigyikes: If the rapture is true why would you want to be left behind? I dont get the logic or illogic.

C’mon AFH, you know me better than that!!!

Look at post #66. Jesus uses these exact same analogies when he discusses two in the field - one will be taken and one will be left. Then he says it will be just like Noah.

Let me ask you, who was left behind in the flood? Noah and his family. The only righteous people. Who was left behind at Sodom? Lot and his daughters.

I’d really like to be left behind in this event.

 

[Mickey]

I’d really like to be left behind in this event.

Me too!

 

[ALLFORHIM]

C’mon AFH, you know me better than that!!!

Look at post #66. Jesus uses these exact same analogies when he discusses two in the field - one will be taken and one will be left. Then he says it will be just like Noah.

Let me ask you, who was left behind in the flood? Noah and his family. The only righteous people. Who was left behind at Sodom? Lot and his daughters.

I’d really like to be left behind in this event.

Hi,
Sorry, Im not real swift on the uptake if you know what I mean. Remember I am a true blonde. HEHE Now I get what all of you are saying.

 

[Lillith]

AND . . . 3 times in John 6 Jesus says he will raise up those who have eternal life “at the last day.” Which “last” day would that be?

The last day before the last day

 

[jonfan]

Only God knows the time and date of the “end times”. I personally don’t worry myself about the end of the world. I try to worry about doing the right thing in the here and now.

God bless,
Jonfan

 

[mercygate]

The last day before the last day

No, no, no, Lillith. (Yep: real blonde, all right.) That would be the last day before the last “last” day! Criminy!

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi,
What:bigyikes: **If the rapture is true **

why would you want to be left behind? I dont get the logic or illogic.But it’s really simple…listen to the study and look at the history of the teaching. It’s not true and therefore will not happen as its proponents assert.

In fact, the Bible teaches something completely else.

“What if” games are for those who are not concerned with the truth.

The Bible does not teach the chain of events that this teaching proposes. It’s that simple. In fact, being “left behind” is exactly what the NT tells us is to be sought.

Like St. Paul told St. Timothy in 2nd Timothy 2:15 “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.”
Pax tecum,

 

[spauline]

Only God knows the time and date of the “end times”. I personally don’t worry myself about the end of the world. I try to worry about doing the right thing in the here and now.

God bless,
Jonfan

I don’t worry about the end of the world either. But, unfortunately, most people in the world do not really understand what the apocalyptic data is really about. And I’m not talking about merely fundamentalists, I mean, in general, most Catholics and liberal Protestants.

Essentially, the only people who really have any real sense of the apocalypse are middle of the road, anti-Catholic Protestants, like Calvinists, and Catholic, spiritual historicists. That is, not only do fundamentalists miss the point, SO DO PRETERISTS. Neither futurism NOR preterism can, by themselves, address the true issue of the apocalypse.

The apocalyptic data cannot be ABSOLUTELY irrelevant, for then why is it in Scripture? Why is it in Tradition? What the apocalypse is really addressing is the MEANING of human history, and this cannot be determined by a MERE idealism. There must be at least SOMETHING SPECIFIC being said about the spiritual ages of the Church, for the pattern of trial, tribulation, and triumph does not go on forever. Eventually, the near totality of man (saving a remnant of Gentiles and the fullness of the Jews) will fall away from the Gospel in such a manner that they will not be able to restored to faith in any practical sense. That is, the fallen nature of man will manifest itself in a way in which it can no longer be healed by any actoin of God, with or without His grace.

And the Church will recognize when that condition will exist by formally proclaiming the “mystery of iniquity”. The problem with fundamentalists is not they are interested in the apoclaypse, but because they ASK the WRONG QUESTIONS. But then, preterists’ questions aren’t too much more legitimate either, for preterism, BY ITSELF, doesn’t really address the apocalyptic questions.

And considering that there is a significant apostasy reigning in, at a bare minimum, the vast majority of the European or derivative civs, there is a very serious question that must be asked: is this the beginning of the apostasy of the end, or will it be healed? And seeing as Christian division is a significant factor that contributes to this great loss of faith, the above question is inseparable from the question of to what degree Christians will be reunited, if at all.

Also, even though, in a vague allegorical sense rolleyes: ), we are in the “Millennium” (again: ), on the other hand, our great JPII, when writing on the apocalypse, elaborated that** one great “false prophet” of today is materialism**. So there is an entire other sense in which, while being in the “millennium”, we are on the other hand in a type of chapter 13, with the “beast and false prophet”, the generally sinful and apostate-culture that holds significant sway over the world, especially , as mentioned in the European civs. And it cannot go on much longer with the total affront even to the foundational issues of life and sex before our civilizations will begin to reap the fruits of its sin and apostasy. For you don’t just simply go to hell for doing things like fornicate, contracept, abort, divorce and remarry, and be materialistic. Eventually,** there are temporal consquences**, and we cannot even begin to imagine how horrible these could get in light of the power of modern science and technology.

But very few individuals in the Catholic Church seem all that concerned to probe the REAL apocalyptic questions: will the faith be restored? Will Christians be reunited? Is this the beginning of the final apostasy, or will it be healed? That is, is man now falling away from the Gospel in an IRREDEEMABLE and IRREVOCABLE manner, or can God yet restore man to faith, even it takes an epic chastisement?

So I would encourage you Catholics on this board to think again if you think the apoc is COMPLETELY irrelevant to Catholicism, or at least that it says nothing more than simply the Early Church struggles.

the open question

why both futurists AND preterists miss the point

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I don’t worry about the end of the world either. But, unfortunately, most people in the world do not really understand what the apocalyptic data is really about. And I’m not talking about merely fundamentalists, I mean, in general, most Catholics and liberal Protestants.

Essentially, the only people who really have any real sense of the apocalypse are middle of the road, anti-Catholic Protestants, like Calvinists, and Catholic, spiritual historicists. That is, not only do fundamentalists miss the point, SO DO PRETERISTS. Neither futurism NOR preterism can, by themselves, address the true issue of the apocalypse.

The apocalyptic data cannot be ABSOLUTELY irrelevant, for then why is it in Scripture? Why is it in Tradition? What the apocalypse is really addressing is the MEANING of human history, and this cannot be determined by a MERE idealism. There must be at least SOMETHING SPECIFIC being said about the spiritual ages of the Church, for the pattern of trial, tribulation, and triumph does not go on forever. Eventually, the near totality of man (saving a remnant of Gentiles and the fullness of the Jews) will fall away from the Gospel in such a manner that they will not be able to restored to faith in any practical sense. That is, the fallen nature of man will manifest itself in a way in which it can no longer be healed by any actoin of God, with or without His grace.

And the Church will recognize when that condition will exist by formally proclaiming the “mystery of iniquity”. The problem with fundamentalists is not they are interested in the apoclaypse, but because they ASK the WRONG QUESTIONS. But then, preterists’ questions aren’t too much more legitimate either, for preterism, BY ITSELF, doesn’t really address the apocalyptic questions.

And considering that there is a significant apostasy reigning in, at a bare minimum, the vast majority of the European or derivative civs, there is a very serious question that must be asked: is this the beginning of the apostasy of the end, or will it be healed? And seeing as Christian division is a significant factor that contributes to this great loss of faith, the above question is inseparable from the question of to what degree Christians will be reunited, if at all.

Also, even though, in a vague allegorical sense rolleyes: ), we are in the “Millennium” (again: ), on the other hand, our great JPII, when writing on the apocalypse, elaborated that** one great “false prophet” of today is materialism**. So there is an entire other sense in which, while being in the “millennium”, we are on the other hand in a type of chapter 13, with the “beast and false prophet”, the generally sinful and apostate-culture that holds significant sway over the world, especially , as mentioned in the European civs. And it cannot go on much longer with the total affront even to the foundational issues of life and sex before our civilizations will begin to reap the fruits of its sin and apostasy. For you don’t just simply go to hell for doing things like fornicate, contracept, abort, divorce and remarry, and be materialistic. Eventually,** there are temporal consquences**, and we cannot even begin to imagine how horrible these could get in light of the power of modern science and technology.

But very few individuals in the Catholic Church seem all that concerned to probe the REAL apocalyptic questions: will the faith be restored? Will Christians be reunited? Is this the beginning of the final apostasy, or will it be healed? That is, is man now falling away from the Gospel in an IRREDEEMABLE and IRREVOCABLE manner, or can God yet restore man to faith, even it takes an epic chastisement?

So I would encourage you Catholics on this board to think again if you think the apoc is COMPLETELY irrelevant to Catholicism, or at least that it says nothing more than simply the Early Church struggles.

the open question

why both futurists AND preterists miss the point

Hi,
Im with Jonfan I dont think about it too much I try to do God’s will now. IMHO I think this was included in Scripture so we would know what we are being saved from. We all talk about heaven and hell but do we really truly understand what that means. I mean really sit down and ponder that, I have and it truly amazes me that God loves me so much He would save me from His wrath. Of course I certainly dont deserve it . Actually none of us do. Because we do not know when this is going to occur we need to make sure we are right with God

AFH

 

[spauline]

Im with Jonfan I dont think about it too much I try to do God’s will now. IMHO I think this was included in Scripture so we would know what we are being saved from. We all talk about heaven and hell but do we really truly understand what that means. I mean really sit down and ponder that, I have and it truly amazes me that God loves me so much He would save me from His wrath. Of course I certainly dont deserve it . Actually none of us do. Because we do not know when this is going to occur we need to make sure we are right with God

I’m not talking about “when” in the sense of “the day or the hour.” I think this is the entire problem I am talking about: most Catholics and liberal Prots simply are not capable of understanding what “middle of the road” means. They assume that anything other than liberal preterism is “fundamentalism”, like knowing “dates of future events”, or how individual nations will destroy one another or where earthquakes will occur at the “very end”. I am not talking about that in any sense.

I am talking about deep psychological and spiritual questions about the God’s spiritual plan to redeem the human race. Questions like, “We have seen that because of sin, the clergy of the Church fell into general laxity, and because of their scandal, Christians have become tragically and disastrously divided. In turn, this division has truly led to a great loss of faith, even, if you will, an apostasy. So what happens from here (not in TEMPORAL terms, but SPIRITUALLY): Will the grace of God restore Christian unity? And, to whatever degree it is, will the reunion restore the faith in the societies that have lost it? Or will the scandal of first the Church and later of all Christians NOT be healed, and man will NOT be able to learn from scandal and be restored to faith. That is, will the scandal of Christian confusion and hypocrisy indellibly wound man’s ability to be restored?”

I am not saying that you are somehow in danger of losing your salvation simply because you are either not aware of these questions or do not really care about them. But, on the other hand, I am a person who desires to CONTINUALLY grow in my understanding of God and His religion, and since I have already become well versed in basic Catholic theology and apologetics, I am moving on into uncharted territory, in part, because I wish to understand God more, in order that I might love Him more, but also that, deeper knowledge of the deposit of faith in Catholicism can only improve ecumenical relations, for the more we understand God, the better we can dialogue with our separated brethren.

Moreover, seeing as the apocalypse is, in its ultimate sense, concerned with the ultimate SPIRITUAL meaning and course of human history, there is obviously much spiritual developments (and digressions) that have occurred since the Early Church, things that are truly at the forefront of doctrine and the salvation of mankind, seeing as they involve the Church herself. And so, if the Apocalypse is truly about the history, and since the Bible is Catholic, it must be saying something about that history and what is then the Plan for how God will SPIRITUALLY complete the Redemption of humanity in and through the Church.

And seeing as there is this great crisis in history at our time, these historical questions are highly pertinent to our time, and if we are to provide the best answers that we can in ecumenical dialogue, I would say that serious investigation of these questions need to be taken, so that we can grow in the very Christian unity that the Church prays for.

 

[jonfan]

I’m not talking about “when” in the sense of “the day or the hour.” I think this is the entire problem I am talking about: most Catholics and liberal Prots simply are not capable of understanding what “middle of the road” means. They assume that anything other than liberal preterism is “fundamentalism”, like knowing “dates of future events”, or how individual nations will destroy one another or where earthquakes will occur at the “very end”. I am not talking about that in any sense.

I am talking about deep psychological and spiritual questions about the God’s spiritual plan to redeem the human race. Questions like, “We have seen that because of sin, the clergy of the Church fell into general laxity, and because of their scandal, Christians have become tragically and disastrously divided. In turn, this division has truly led to a great loss of faith, even, if you will, an apostasy. So what happens from here (not in TEMPORAL terms, but SPIRITUALLY): Will the grace of God restore Christian unity? And, to whatever degree it is, will the reunion restore the faith in the societies that have lost it? Or will the scandal of first the Church and later of all Christians NOT be healed, and man will NOT be able to learn from scandal and be restored to faith. That is, will the scandal of Christian confusion and hypocrisy indellibly wound man’s ability to be restored?”

I am not saying that you are somehow in danger of losing your salvation simply because you are either not aware of these questions or do not really care about them. But, on the other hand, I am a person who desires to CONTINUALLY grow in my understanding of God and His religion, and since I have already become well versed in basic Catholic theology and apologetics, I am moving on into uncharted territory, in part, because I wish to understand God more, in order that I might love Him more, but also that, deeper knowledge of the deposit of faith in Catholicism can only improve ecumenical relations, for the more we understand God, the better we can dialogue with our separated brethren.

.

Good points. As far as I know some things in Revelations could have already taken place. I can understand wanting to get closer to God but some things we aren’t meant to understand. my2cents. Good luck on your journey and God bless.

Jonfan

 

[jonfan]

Hi,
Im with Jonfan I dont think about it too much I try to do God’s will now. IMHO I think this was included in Scripture so we would know what we are being saved from. We all talk about heaven and hell but do we really truly understand what that means. I mean really sit down and ponder that, I have and it truly amazes me that God loves me so much He would save me from His wrath. Of course I certainly dont deserve it . Actually none of us do. Because we do not know when this is going to occur we need to make sure we are right with God

AFH

Look! A Catholic and a Protestant Agreed! It is possible! :dancing:

 

[Sabda]

Church Militant,

I have gotten John’s notes. Like NotWorthy, I think they are good but incomplete. There is a lot of stuff he says in between the Scripture verses that is very good. I also like to go though and add what those verses and the CCC says to get a good picture. It gives me a better idea. I only had one year of Catechizing, and only started seriously studying the Bible this year. His talks have really helped me to learn.

spauline,

I’ve been to your site and read what you have to say. I think it’s very good.

 

[Lillith]

Look! A Catholic and a Protestant Agreed! It is possible! :dancing:

Naw…this is our house protestant, and a very sweet Lady

 

[NotWorthy]

Look! A Catholic and a Protestant Agreed! It is possible! :dancing:

Uh-oh… isn’t that the 7th sign?!?

 

[Bwavenit]

Catholic answers live touched on this today. scott hahn touched on the developement of the rapture idea. check it out.

 

[jonfan]

Uh-oh… isn’t that the 7th sign?!?

HAHAHAHHA. LOL :bowdown2: !!! I almost fell out of my chair.

 

[mdcpensive1]

You raise some interesting points that have not been clarified in the replies. The throne of David you say is an earthly throne. This was true at the time of David, but as a child grows from an infant to adulthood, things change. The change for the church was a new covenant that fulfilled the old and was greater than the original. This new covenant was not a place of stone which was the old temple, but the new temple which resides in our souls. Before, God was only found in the temple of Jerusalem, but now, through His grace of Baptism, He resides in our soul-temples. We will be in the New Jerusalem which may or maynot be on this earth. We know this earth will not last forever if you consider the life of our sun is finite and you know the problem California has in building new power plants !!!
Just more info.
mdcpensive1

 

[spauline]

Good points. As far as I know some things in Revelations could have already taken place. I can understand wanting to get closer to God but some things we aren’t meant to understand. my2cents. Good luck on your journey and God bless.

Jonfan

thank you for your comments, Jonfan, and I apologize, I didn’t mean to attack you. I think it’s that I’m just a little too passionate about my faith than I should be, to the point that I border on fanatic! ( ).

I also agree that there are some things we aren’t meant to understand, or at least know, and for what it’s worth, I think most of the Fundamentalist speculation about current events (“temporal”) falls into this category.

But I think the types of questions I discussed above are more approaching the things that, eventually (in Church history), will be undestood.

But, anyway, blessings to you as well, and thank you for yours.