The RCC facade

[Atemi]

Originally Posted by Atemi
**We are not talking about unified teaching (whatever that is).

This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper.**
…

Thank goodness I didnt bother reading more than a few pages of this thread to see that you are still confused about the actual topic of the thread. Here is the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyz
One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith.
Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice.
The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

A discussion of Catholic unity is, in fact, a discussion of the unity of beliefs AS TAUGHT BY THE CHURCH.

When the majority of your own brethren do not even believe it, then we got disunity. There is no other way to candy-coat it.

There is always a reference point wherein what is TRULY CATHOLIC and what is not are easily distinguishable. You know it, the OP knows it and that is why he is able to so easily recognize how the surrounding parishes vary from the actual teaching of the Church. Its easy! That, in a nutshell, is the fundamental difference between the Catholic Church and any Protestant community you wish to compare it to. Most Protestant communities dont even have something written that clearly outlines the specifics of their faith and how those specifics apply to real life situations.

Wrong.

Way wrong, actually.

All churches generally have a statement of faith or even their own catechism.

Sorry.

It is a sad reality that many who profess to be Catholic fail to live as Catholics. But that should not really come as much of a surprise - just read how the earliest believers twisted Scripture and the apostolic teachings to their own destruction. It is no different now. The weeds will grow with the wheat until harvest time by Gods Will.

And if the “weeds” are so plenty, and they are not unified with the “wheat” (you, of course) then there is no unity to brag about.

But that individual disunity is not to be confused with the UNITY OF FAITH as presented by the Church.

Yes.

Only PEOPLE can have unity.
Only PEOPLE can have faith.

Catechisms can have neither.

You may attempt to argue - and in fact you are arguing - that “If the church has doctrinal unity but many of its followers ignore it then there really is no doctrinal unity” but you would be mistaken.

Then you are just as mistaken about my church as well…unless you want to erroneously call Protestantism a “church”…which almost all the posters in this thread are effectively doing.

We all can compare ONE church to all the others that are not that church and magically declare “unity of doctrine.”

Nonsense, really.

…

 

[Tonks40]

Atemi -

You **still **don’t understand the fundamental differences between the Protestant concept of unity and the Catholic concept of unity. Why are you holding the protestant standard against Catholic teaching?

Go to any Catholic parish website anywhere in the world - go to diocesan websites, heck,even go to the Vatican’s website if you want - and you’ll see that when it comes to the teachings of the Church, you’ll see the same thing over and over again. No dissenting statements - no conflicting ones, either. In fact, I’m willing to bet that in not one of those websites will you see a collection of beliefs that contradict what the Church teaches.

I’m not sure why you’re jumping hoops to justify to yourself that the Church is not unified. And no, we’re not hiding the tares - we know they exist, we know they’re out there. We are not in denial - we on this forum are doing our best to bring those who have wandered away from the Shepard’s fold back towards the path of God. And there are plenty of others out there who are not on these forums that are keeping steadfast in the Faith.

God Bless!

 

[Tonks40]

The Five Precepts of the Catholic Church:

FIRST PRECEPT OF THE CHURCH: ATTENDING MASS ON SUNDAYS AND HOLY DAYS OF OBLIGATION (Catechism of the Catholic Church (2041) The first precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: “On Sundays and other Holy days of Obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass.”

THE SECOND PRECEPT OF THE CHURCH: CONFESSION OF SIN (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2042)
“You shall confess your sins at least once a year.” This precept of the Church ensures preparation for the Holy Eucharist by the reception of the Sacrament of Penance, which continues Baptism’s work of conversion and forgiveness.

THE THIRD PRECEPT OF THE CHURCH: RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2042) “You shall humbly receive your Creator in Holy Communion at least during the Easter Season.” This precept of the Church guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord’s Body and Blood in connection with the paschal feasts, the very origin and center of the Christian Liturgy This precept of the Church guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord’s Body and Blood in connection with the paschal feasts, the very origin and center of the Christian Liturgy…

THE FOURTH PRECEPT OF THE CHURCH: PARTICIPATING AT MASS ON HOLY DAYS OF OBLIGATION (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2043) 2043 The fourth precept (“You shall keep holy the holy days of obligation.”) completes the Sunday observance by participation in the principal liturgical feasts which honor the mysteries of the Lord, the Virgin Mary, and the saints.[85]

THE FIFTH PRECEPT OF THE CHURCH: FASTING AND ABSTINENCE (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2043) “You shall observe the prescribed days of fasting and abstinence” The Fifth precept of the Church -ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts; they help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.

I got these off of several Catholic websites Tell me, where’s the disunity here?

 

[Atemi]

Atemi -

You **still **don’t understand the fundamental differences between the Protestant concept of unity and the Catholic concept of unity. Why are you holding the protestant standard against Catholic teaching?

No.

I am holding the Catholic standard in the usual apologetic against actual Catholic practice.

Go to any Catholic parish website anywhere in the world - go to diocesan websites, heck,even go to the Vatican’s website if you want - and you’ll see that when it comes to the teachings of the Church, you’ll see the same thing over and over again. No dissenting statements - no conflicting ones, either. In fact, I’m willing to bet that in not one of those websites will you see a collection of beliefs that contradict what the Church teaches.

You can do that with any one church, Tonks. That is why they are a church.

I’m not sure why you’re jumping hoops to justify to yourself that the Church is not unified. And no, we’re not hiding the tares - we know they exist, we know they’re out there.

You just conveniently ignore them when it comes time to tally “unity.”

They are there, sure…and they are not unified with your church’s doctrines or morals…but that magically doesn’t matter when speaking of Catholic unity.

That math cannot be taken seriously by those you condemn for “disunity.”

We are not in denial - we on this forum are doing our best to bring those who have wandered away from the Shepard’s fold back towards the path of God.

How condescending.

And there are plenty of others out there who are not on these forums that are keeping steadfast in the Faith.

As am I.

…

 

[Church_Militant]

Atemi -

You **still **

don’t understand the fundamental differences between the Protestant concept of unity and the Catholic concept of unity. Why are you holding the protestant standard against Catholic teaching?

Go to any Catholic parish website anywhere in the world - go to diocesan websites, heck,even go to the Vatican’s website if you want - and you’ll see that when it comes to the teachings of the Church, you’ll see the same thing over and over again. No dissenting statements - no conflicting ones, either. In fact, I’m willing to bet that in not one of those websites will you see a collection of beliefs that contradict what the Church teaches.

I’m not sure why you’re jumping hoops to justify to yourself that the Church is not unified. And no, we’re not hiding the tares - we know they exist, we know they’re out there. We are not in denial - we on this forum are doing our best to bring those who have wandered away from the Shepard’s fold back towards the path of God. And there are plenty of others out there who are not on these forums that are keeping steadfast in the Faith.

God Bless!Honestly…I don’t really think he cares. He seems to just want any opportunity to talk some kind of trash about the Catholic faith.

If we Catholics say red…he’ll say blue…anything but ever admit that Catholics might be right about anything, while always, always, always, trying to hold Catholics and the Church up to some ever higher standard…that he and all the rest of the a-Cs out there can’t even meet themselves.

Sorry, but you’re probably wasting your time.

There is no unity among n-C churches and there never will be. Most of them don’t want to share their faith and win souls…they want to argue and feed their egos and call it “witnessing”. I know, I’ve seen it for years!

The sad part is seeing all that claptrap about “Oh, I’m not anti-Catholic! I LOVE Catholics…”

Atemi wants unity? He has a weird way of showing it then…Me…I can’t tell…

 

[Atemi]

Honestly…I don’t really think he cares. He seems to just want any opportunity to talk some kind of trash about the Catholic faith.

If disagreeing with the common apologetic automatically means one is talking “trash” about the Catholic faith, then you must be prepared to be a very unhappy person.

Not everyone is out to get you, Michael.

Recognizing Catholic disunity, which all Catholics know about already, is not talking “trash” about Catholicism. It is the truth.

What’s funny is that when I was a Catholic and I mentioned it, it was met with nods and agreement…but if you mention the same exact thing as a non-Catholic and you are suddenly the Devil himself.

By this we can know that it is not the content of the post, but who is posting it, that will unfortunately enrage many people here.

If we Catholics say red…he’ll say blue…anything but ever admit that Catholics might be right about anything, while always, always, always, trying to hold Catholics and the Church up to some ever higher standard…that he and all the rest of the a-Cs out there can’t even meet themselves.

 

[Church_Militant]

If disagreeing with the common apologetic automatically means one is talking “trash” about the Catholic faith, then you must be prepared to be a very unhappy person.

I frankly don’t care one way or the other. You say all this trash and it means nothing…not a thing. There is ONE authority in the Catholic faith.

There is no other valid Catholic position.

N-Cs hold as many different doctrines (or combinations thereof) as there are denominations and “non-denominations”. It may be a lot of things, but there sure as vitam aeternam ain’t unity of any kind, and it’s not an authority or even a worthwhile witness to unity or even the Bible since they all grab a slice and haul butt in different directions.

Not everyone is out to get you, Michael.

Never said they were. Wouldn’t win even if they were.

Recognizing Catholic disunity, which all Catholics know about already

, is not talking “trash” about Catholicism. It is the truth.This is bunkum.

“All Catholics” obviously DON’T know any such thing or we wouldn’t be having this discussion. It’s not the truth… it’s your rhetorical propaganda to try to make yourself feel better about leaving the church. Try being honest for a change…

What’s funny is that when I was a Catholic

and I mentioned it, it was met with nods and agreement…but if you mention the same exact thing as a non-Catholic and you are suddenly the Devil himself.This is of little value since it is your unverifiable assertion. I have had not had such an experience, and in fact I find Catholics working to ever greater unity as we find ourselves hearing junk like this from the likes of you. Frankly, please keep on running off at the mouth. Every time you do, and I and my Catholic brothers and sisters respond more people see the propaganda for what it really is and convert. If you were smart…you and all the a-Cs would shut up and go bother the Internet Infidels or something.

By this we can know that it is not the content

of the post, but who is posting it, that will unfortunately enrage many people here.Nah…it’s your personal style and the unsupportable propaganda you crank out.

“All Catholics”…“everybody knows” rash generalizations without a shred of fact. That’s why I said it’s just “trash talk”…it’s all talk without real substance and nothing more than a-C propaganda.

No.

I can’t tell…

This is about RC apologists holding all non-Catholics to a standard that they do not hold their own to

.Garbage…You haven’t offered a supporting fact for any of the stuff you have alleged on this thread… not one verifiable thing. That’s why I said it’s all a waste of time.

For an RC apologist to invite someone out of disunity and into disunity

at the very same time is only a facade…as the OP correctly recognizes.The OP…(who seems to have bailed from this thread.) has been refuted all along, and just like you, they offered not the least evidence, but only rhetoric while my Catholic brothers and sisters and I have offered facts…the evidence of the reality that you do not want to accept.

And after a supposed 2000 years

your own church still has not done much better. A billion differing opinions and tons of “tares” is not any kind of “unity” to boast about.See! Same old rhetoric without a shred of real evidence. This is your ill informed opinion and you are welcome to it, but please don’t seek to pass it off as a statement of fact, because it’s not…though you wish.

The record speaks for itself.

What record? You haven’t offered one single fact…not one.

Oh stop it. As if you are just saintly, Michael.

What has this to do with anything?

What? I hit too close to home maybe?

Tell the truth man…you don’t want to admit that Catholics have the unity and authority that we do because you know perfectly well the vast myriad of diverse errors and insane teachings that have been the fruit of the “reformation” theology.

There is no authority among n-Cs and can never be any so long as they persist in their various versions of Sola Scriptura. So long as every man is his own (vastly unqualified and severely ignorant) interpreter of the Word of God, (proclaiming on the one hand that they have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, while on the other proclaiming that theirs is the only correct interpretation of it), there can be no unity of doctrine or teaching. That record does indeed speak for itself.

 

[SFLCatholic]

Ink on paper doesn’t mean much when the people do not all unify with what it teaches.

Case in point for why Sola Scriptura is useless.

Atemi, you atemis are weak.

 

[SFLCatholic]

Doctrine cannot be unified. Only PEOPLE can be unified.

But how do people get unified? By adhering to a set of ideas that gives them a singular purpose.

This set of ideas is manifested as doctrine. You know that. You are just being a stick in the mud.

Ink on paper doesn’t mean much when the people do not all unify with what it teaches.

Thank you again for admitting that the Protestant Reformation and Sola Scriptura are pointless.

Saying your Catechism is united with itself is silly.

You keep saying this and want us to believe it soley because of your conviciton about it.

We have Catechisms and statements of faith too.

Those are all unifed with themselves.

But how can we take you serioulsy when you turn right around in the same post and make a claim for your postion using the exact thing you claim is silly?

Your arguments are nonsense. You really should think about coming back to the RCC. It would give you focus.

Or at least apply your aikido principles and become flexible. (I am assuming you train aikido based on your “Atemi” name.)

 

[SFLCatholic]

Those who “fall away”?

These are your priests and bishops teaching the flock.

There are your deacons and lectors.

These are many of what appears to be some of the most faithful around you at Mass every week.

They go to Confession regularly and take the Eucharist. They say the Rosary all the time.

These are not apostates!

LOL.

These are Catholics.

…

Absolutely correct! Thank you for pointing out the fact that Jesus came here for the SINNER!

So to claim that all these defective imperfect people are participating in His Glory by honoring Him in His mass, is to acknowledge His Doctrine.

“This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Luke 15:2

 

[guanophore]

This thread is not about the supposed authority of your church but about the doctrinally unity of its members…and especially the lack thereof.

My argument is based upon all Catholics…you know, the “1 billion” we hear about every day on boards like this

Yeah, I think nominal Catholics should not be counted.

If you are going to say that Catholics are doctrinally unified, that means they must be actually ***doctrinally unified***, which they surely ***are not***.

They are, Atemi. Catholic is defined by those who are unified with the Church in doctrine. Therefore, by definition, those who are not in unity are not Catholic. MOst of them don’t realize that they have become Protestants, or that they have excommunicated themselves.

Insisting we all measure Catholic doctrinal unity by counting only the (unknown) number of Catholics that are doctrinally unified…but conveniently ignoring the majority of other Catholics…is totally silly.

You are right. It is silly to count someone as “Catholic” who is not in unity with the teaching of the Church, since this cannot happen. Calling oneself a CAtholic does not make it so!

The very fact that there are so very few of those you describe only goes to prove the point again.

Only the point that nominal Catholics should not be counted.

I am not decrying anything about the Catholic faith. What I decrying is the false apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified while non-Catholics are not.

Catholics are doctrinally unified, or they are not Catholic. What is false is the polemic that there are so many “Catholics”, when we know that the majority are not.

***That is false right from the get-go***, and folks like the OP are not amused. I don't blame him. I feel the same.

…

The OP misunderstands what it means to be Catholic. He also thinks that the “RCC” has “selling points”, which is nonsense. the faith of Jesus Christ is not for “sale”. The Church puts forth the doctrine, just as the Apostles did. Those who choose not to embrace it will not be unified in faith with the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

If you knew anything about reality, you’d be a Catholic, too. I suppose, though, that if St. Paul was able to see the Truth, there is still hope for you. You are comparing true Catholics to cafeteria Catholics. I challenge you to name even ONE doctrine that is a matter of faith or morals that all TRUE Roman Catholics who know their faith are not unified on. That is the challenge. If you can’t give an answer (which you can’t, given the question) then not only have you failed in your argument on this thread, but you lose all credibility to say anything about anything on any thread.

Atemi is judging the quality of our faith, and the truth of what we say on the basis of those who do not believe and practice it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi is judging the quality of our faith, and the truth of what we say on the basis of those who do not believe and practice it.

Can we judge wine by vinegar?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Disunity is defined by rebels and dissenters…that includes the very many at Mass with you every weekend.

People may have differences of opinion, but that does not mean that they are not unified. I may want chicken for dinner and my sister may want shrimp. That doesn’t mean that we both pack a knapsack and leave home.

The Catholic Church is full of disagreements. Disgreements are beneficial in that they stimulate the Church authorities to clarify teaching. Clarified teaching is a good thing.

Atemi:

That is the whole point.

What is the whole point? … Ani scratches head and wonders if she is still asleep.

Atemi:

They are Catholic and do not believe as you do…thus rampant disunity.

No. Disagreement. The functioning of the Church is unified. Her doctrines are unified. There is ONE STANDARD to which ALL CATHOLICS can respond in our thinking, in our understanding, in our lives, while still honouring the uniqueness which God accorded to each of us. Pretty groovy set up, eh?

Atemi:

No, they are all around you.

Who are all around us? Bodysnatchers? The Living Dead? AC/DC fans?

Atemi:

They are the little old lady saying the Rosary as you enter church or the deacon serving the Eucharist.

The name of this little old lady, please? How can we verify her fidelity? Does she have a website? A book?

Atemi:

I have seen them all.

Atemi, puleeeeze. How can you possibly say this with a straight face? That is over a billion people, dude! And those are only the ones still alive. How do you have the time to interview and thoroughly understand that many people?

Atemi:

They have not left you. They are very much at home in the RCC and proud to call themselves Catholics.

Well, that’s a unifying thought!

Atemi:

Many are also your future priests and bishops.

Our future priests and bishops? :hypno: Mindreading and prognostication has become valid research metholodogy in your world? … the sound of crickets chirping in the distance.

Atemi:

Too bad the “1 billion” are still hanging out.

Well they are still hanging out because the Tiber Beach Party is the best party on the block.

Atemi:

Constantly pointing at your Catechism as if that has any bearing on the true and tangible unity among Catholics is a serious mistake, IMO.

You’d be wrong then.

Atemi:

It is this kind of error that the OP makes plain.

Plain as fifty sets of scrabble pieces on a beach after a tidal wave.

Atemi:

Actually, plenty of “Catholic” churches make that claim.

The Catholic churches within the Catholic Church make this claim because it is true.

Atemi:

You should know this.

We do. You evidently do not. Pity.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

Who cares what authority they have?

People who understand what authority means: legitimate governance.

Atemi:

They are the evidence of disunity.

They are evidence of the role of differences of opinion in healthy discussions leading toward deepening clarification of truth for all people always and everywhere. How do you deal with differences of opinion in your denomination? Same way your predecessors did?

Atemi:

And in order to have unity you can boast about, real people must believe them.

Nope. Real people need to know that unifying doctrines exist and are not ‘invisible’ or changeable.

Atemi:

That is far from the case with one billion Catholics.

You are saying that 1 billion Catholics do not know of the existence of the Creeds and Catechism? Your evidence please? Oh I forgot; you don’t have any.

Atemi:

Doctrine cannot be unified. Only PEOPLE can be unified.

…operating as a unit; “a unified utility system”; “a coordinated program” … link

Atemi:

Ink on paper doesn’t mean much when the people do not all unify with what it teaches.

Actually it can mean many things as the Sola Scripturists have demonstrated. Whether it means true things is another question. The ink on the paper of Church dogma means ONE TRUE THING.

Atemi:

Bishops and elders just like you do.

Truth cannot contradict truth. Your bishops and elders promote conflicting doctrines. Therefore they have no legitimate governance and therefore no authority. Moreover they do not enjoy apostolic succession, the laying on of hands.

Atemi:

BTW, look at all the schisms within Catholicism before talking like there are none.

All the schisms? Specifically which schisms are you talking about?

 

[DJim]

I have by no means read all 209 previous posts on this thread, but isn’t this a bit of a tempest in a teapot?

At some point, every Bible-believing Christian has to acknowledge the disconnect between human disunity and divine unity.

It is Scripture that proclaims “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism,” NOT just the Catholic Church…

If a non-Catholic Bible Christian can comfortably reconcile the human disunity that has been part of the Christian faith since the beginning with the reality of unity in the Body of Christ, then why can’t the same be applied to the Catholic faith in particular?

If human failure and disunity does not negate the reality of the unity of the Body of Christ, then it does not negate the reality of the unity of the Catholic Church.

Technically speaking, the “unity” of the Church arises from Baptism, not from doctrinal belief or disbelief.

Human unity may be compromised by those who dissent, to be sure, but dissent cannot destroy the reality of the divine unity of the Body of Christ.

DJim

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

Sorry, but doctrines cannot be united. Only PEOPLE can be united.

You are attempting to rewrite language. I have already given you a dictionary definition which demonstrates that you are wrong. We are speaking English on CAF, not Jabberwocky.

Atemi:

That is the whole purpose of unity.

For your argument to be valid, maybe. But your arguments are so full of holes that your specious redefining of ‘unity’ is no more than the sound of a wind in a sandstorm; full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Atemi:

Saying your Catechism is united with itself is silly.

Then don’t say it.

Atemi:

Sweeping the majority of Catholics under the carpet is hiding them.

Then stop sweeping.

Atemi:

These are the same people, including priests, that the OP mentions.

Who does the OP mention? Do you have a quote?

Atemi:

Pretending that they do not exist will not help Catholics repair these errors.

Inventing them will not soothe the pangs of loneliness or make the hamburgers grilling at the Tiber Beach Party look any less mouthwatering.

:extrahappy:
Ani Ibi:

To claim that there is doctrinal disunity under Catholicism serves as a smokescreen to cover the doctrinal disunity of Protestantism.

Atemi:

No.

Yes.

Atemi:

We have Catechisms and statements of faith too. Those are all unifed with themselves.

Plural. That is why you have disunity.

Atemi:

And to hide the doctrinal disunity of sooooooo many Catholics does the same.

To equate pluralism with singularism is completely devoid of logic. We have one Catechism. You have many. Not the same thing… did this escape your notice? Pity.
Ani Ibi:

I don’t need to make a stronger case than the one I have made

Atemi:

That is unfortunate.

Unfortunate for you.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

You do understand that the type of Catholic that posts at a place like this is a rare breed, don’t you?

The type of Catholic? What type is that? The type you are having trouble discrediting? The type who come up with arguments you can’t defeat?

Atemi:

And I agree with many, many non-Catholics on doctrine all the time…and I never met them before either.

Uh-huh… the sound of Wiley Coyote whistling to his doom at the bottom of a canyon and a small puff of white canyon dust…

Atemi:

This is all irrelevant.

You just don’t have any answer which makes sense.

Atemi:

Yes. We believe the very Words of God have more authority than any words of men.

Then you believe what is linked to in my signature. We agree on something! Whew!

Atemi:

That is crazy talk to some, I know.

To whom?

You do know that “Protestantism” is not a church, right?

Tell that to the early Reformers.

Atemi:

Why did you not include all the Orthodox, and all the Old Catholics, and all the Traditionalists, and all the sedavacantists, and all the Old Calendarists, etc., etc…? They also claim to be the Catholic Church.

Because claiming something does not necessarily make it true.

Atemi:

Picking only one church (the modernist Roman Catholic) and comparing it to many churches (all non-Catholics) is only stacking the deck to produce whatever answer you predetermined to have.

We haven’t picked the modernist Roman Catholic Church. You have. So once again you are just dreaming things up to bolster your straw house before the wolf comes to huff and puff and blow it all down again.

:coffeeread:

Atemi:

For example:

Methodists>obedience>unity

All non-methodists>obedience>disunity
This is the fair comparison no RC apologists dare apply. That is unfortunate because doing so will bring more to the truth.

It is a faulty analogy. You call it fair. How can untruth be fair? Hint: it is not.

Atemi:

Removing all the Catholics you deem not worthy from your math only produces extremely fuzzy results.

We haven’t. All Catholics are in our math. You just can’t follow our math because there are Catholics in it. You would replace Catholics with zero or even with x y z a b c m n u or even with Jabberwocky and make your equation unsolveable. Unfortunately that violates Occams Razor and what good is an unsolveable equation?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Ani Ibi:

The OP, after a lot of words, asks “With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?”

Atemi:

Yes.

Saying yes doesn’t make it yes. Evidence makes it yes. You don’t have any evidence.

Atemi:

It functionally is.One billion differing Roman Catholics all under one roof.

That one roof is Magisterial Truth. One billion differing Catholics unifed by ONE Magisterial Truth. You have walked into your own trap… the sound of Wiley Coyote whistling to his doom at the bottom of a canyon and a small puff of white canyon dust…

Atemi:

This is why the Protestant method is more honest, IMO.

Protestant method? Which one?

Atemi:

Protestants do publically and actually what Catholics do privately.

So? Sin is sin whether public or private.

Atemi:

A couple that stays miserably “married” is not fooling God into thinking that they have not already divorced.

So?

Atemi:

Also, when you are taught from a child that to leave your church probably means eternal damnation, that has a very serious effect on people.

Then don’t teach it.

Atemi:

Biblical churches don’t teach such errors.

It is hard to find one ‘error’ among so many other errors.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

…Having a Catechism and calling that “unity” means nothing to those of us who understand the reality.

How many of you are there, Atemi? I assumed you were one person. As for reality, your posts seem to have been in and out of same; can you please specify which of your realities we are looking at now. Thank you.

Atemi:

So why do you blame us for our tares?

We’re not. We are just acknowledging that you have them.

Atemi:

You call our tares “disunity,” while you ignore your tares and call the rest “unified.”

Your tares do not have the benefit of unified dogma. Therefore they are scattered to the wind.

Atemi:

How convenient is that?

Very inconvenient to the tares. Evidently not very inconvenient to *some *church leaders who benefit from the disunity in their churches.

Atemi:

That kind of reasoning cannot be taken seriously.

It is your reasoning… the sound of Wiley Coyote whistling to his doom at the bottom of a canyon and a small puff of white canyon dust…
not sure who posted this:

Simply look at history. There were heresies emerging from the get go. The Judaizers, the Donatists, the Gnostics, the Nestorians, and many others dogged the early Christians. The Nestorian heresy was huge and involved over half the bishops at its peak. Nevertheless, the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church prevailed. The unity of doctrine remained and still does today.

Atemi:

No.

Yes.

Atemi:

That is only assuming that your church is that same church.

Yes.

Atemi:

I do not make that assumption as there are plenty of other claimants to that title.

You do not make that assumption because you don’t have any evidence.

Atemi:

And please note that the early church was not unified in doctrine either…even all the orthodox believers.

I am not going to note that because it is not true. If you want to persuade then use reason and reference. We will not be persuaded merely because it is you speaking. That may work in your world. It does not work in our world.

Atemi:

This is all rhetoric. I know these are your claims.

It is substantiated historical fact, not rhetoric.

Atemi:

Those who “fall away”? These are your priests and bishops teaching the flock. There are your deacons and lectors. These are many of what appears to be some of the most faithful around you at Mass every week. They go to Confession regularly and take the Eucharist. They say the Rosary all the time. These are not apostates! LOL. These are Catholics.

Precisely! They are not apostates. They are sinners. Catholics all. The Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners.