The RCC facade

[Atemi]

I have by no means read all 209 previous posts on this thread, but isn’t this a bit of a tempest in a teapot?

At some point, every Bible-believing Christian has to acknowledge the disconnect between human disunity and divine unity.

Yes, I agree.

EVERY Christian must.

It is Scripture that proclaims “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism,” NOT just the Catholic Church…

Exactly.

If a non-Catholic Bible Christian can comfortably reconcile the human disunity that has been part of the Christian faith since the beginning with the reality of unity in the Body of Christ, then why can’t the same be applied to the Catholic faith in particular?

That’s what I want to know!

I am in total agreement with you.

If human failure and disunity does not negate the reality of the unity of the Body of Christ, then it does not negate the reality of the unity of the Catholic Church.

Not only that, but it does not negate the reality of the unity of ALL Christians, not just those who happen to be Roman Catholics.

Technically speaking, the “unity” of the Church arises from Baptism, not from doctrinal belief or disbelief.

I cannot agree there, nor do I think any Catholics here will agree either. They have been rejecting their baptised brethren left and right in this thread without a second thought.

This is disheartening to see as an outsider.

Human unity may be compromised by those who dissent, to be sure, but dissent cannot destroy the reality of the divine unity of the Body of Christ.

I totally agree and this post has much wisdom yet to be gleaned.

Thank you.

If we use a nod toward a shopping list of doctrines as proof of Christian unity, then that is only courting disaster and error.

Christian unity is not to be found solely in the theoretical acceptance of a Catechism.

…

 

[DJim]

Atemi–

Ironically, give the thread topic, I think you and I have only a very “basic” form of agreement or unity on this subject.

It looks like we’re close to agreeing on the “starting point” of unity–which really is, according to Catholic teaching, Baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ.

But I would not downplay the importance of doctrine and truth regarding the “One Church”–The biblical axiom is “One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.”

When we acknowlege one Lord, we apparently are called to acknowledge THE one Faith as well, not to mention the one baptism.

“One Faith” is the stuff of doctrine, teaching, catechism, church authority (magisterium), etc.

Our Baptismal calling requires us to acknowledge the unity of the Body of Christ established through the One Baptism, but also requires us to discern and embrace the One faith as well.

The divine unity established in the Body of Christ is not destroyed by human dissent, but human dissent wounds the “human” aspect of the Body of Christ.

We can and should acknowledge our common ground even across denominations, but we are called to a higher standard–“one faith”.

In other words, we all have work to do.

Thank you for seeking understanding in this forum. I think we rarely agree on stuff, but we’re trying.

Likewise, for the Catholic Church to have internal disunity is no surprise and no greater “hypocrisy” than any found throughout the Body of Christ.

To the Catholic Church’s credit, though, we hold to the Scriptural standard of “one faith”…

DJim

 

[SFLCatholic]

This is disheartening to see as an outsider.

You are not an outsider. By your own admission you were born and raised in the One True Faith, Catholicism. Along with your daily exposure to Catholics and Catholicism you can’t honestly qualify yourself as an outsider.

Your issue is something deeper and emotional that you need to resolve. Its not with the Catholic Church and its teachings but what happened to you as a result of not following the teachings of the One True Faith.

What happened to you Atemi? Have you ever considered getting some help to resolve your anger towards Jesus’ Church?

Next point:

Doctrine means Teaching per your recent post on the Omnipotnece of Mary.

You said,

“Doctrine” means “teaching,”

If as you posted on another thread, believe that Doctrine does in fact mean Teaching, then how could you ever come to the conclusion that there is no unity if a Doctrine cannot be fully realized in the individual before its taught?

By your logic, Doctrine is a process since Teaching is a process. So all Catholics are unified by the sheer belief that they are Catholic.

The belief would qualify as enough under the “Doctrine means Teaching” rubric because they are still in some sort of self-revelation regarding thier Catholic convictions and being guided at some level by Doctrine. Why else would they classify themselves as Catholic? It gives them identity and self awareness.

I imagine that your contrary argument would be that since “Doctrine means Teaching” is a process, there is no unity because all Catholics are not yet at the same level of understanding. Unity to you, means they are all at the same level of understanding and spiritual conviction.

But this wouldn’t work with your “Doctrine means Teaching” equation because it calls for all people to be fully realized at all points of being at all times. And if this is the case, then it negates doctrine whatsoever and your argument that “Doctrine means Teaching” because teaching presupposes a process, not a fulfilled actualization.

So which is it?

Does “Doctrine means Teaching” which assumes that its a procees of learning and self-revelation? Thereby negating your notions of Unity?

Or,

Or does Doctrine not mean Teaching?

 

[Philthy]

When the majority of your own brethren do not even believe it, then we got disunity. There is no other way to candy-coat it.

No need to candy coat it. The teaching authority of the Church, which is acknowledged by the majority of the faithful continues to provide a unity of faith. Just out of curiousity, how many countries have you sampled to come to your conclusion that a “majority” of Catholics don’t believe the faith?

atemi:

All churches generally have a statement of faith or even their own catechism.

I didnt simply say that they dont have a “statement of faith” - I said:
“Most Protestant communities dont even have something written that **clearly outlines the specifics of their faith and how those specifics apply to real life situations.” **

By a “statement of faith” do you mean the one or two pages of typed **** with no authorized signature, stamp or title (that could be interpreted thousands of different ways with no actual specifics) which gets handed out only if you ask for it? Honestly, do you really think that comparing those “statements of faith”, generally, to something like the CCC is even remotely legitimate?
How many people would even know that statement of faith existed 50 years from now?

atemi:

And if the “weeds” are so plenty, and they are not unified with the “wheat” (you, of course) then there is no unity to brag about.

It is not a question of bragging. There will be times when the Church has greater or lesser unity. I dont disagree that at this point in time, in the US, that there may be considerable more disunity than there was 100 years ago. It may be very different in other countries (such as Africa) where they have greater unity presently. But there will always be the same faith, preserved by the holy Spirit through the Magisterium, together with all the successors of the apostles, to unify the Church. And there is a written testimony of this faith in the Catechism as well as the lives of Catholic Saints which bear witness to the faith not only today, but for all time. You simply cant compare some 3 page document put together by Pastor Bob and Youth Pastor Gene - completely devoid of any historical continuity - into the same category as the faith preserved through the Magisterium and those who hold true to that faith. Sorry.

atemi:

Only PEOPLE can have unity.
Only PEOPLE can have faith.

Catechisms can have neither.

True enough, but can people have a unity of faith independent of a knowledge of exactly what that faith is? No they cannot. That is what the CCC and the Magisterium provide - a knowledge of what the faith actually is, so people can unite within it - not only today, but for all time.

atemi:

We all can compare ONE church to all the others that are not that church and magically declare “unity of doctrine.”
Nonsense, really.
…

Perhaps, but you cant do it for any significant length of time because the doctrine of those churches simply didnt exist in the not to distant past. The faith needs to stretch all the way back to the beginning, and that is what separates a very few churches from all the rest. So your little scenario of comparing all other churches to your own only works if you limit yourself to your current time period. Christianity has been around a while - continue applying that test throughout its entire history and you will end up with that very short list of which Church can claim to have a unified faith throughout the history of the faith.

 

[Atemi]

He DID give example! He referenced himself, a poorly catechized Catholic

I was as catechised a Catholic as they come. There was no way around that in my family. Sorry to disappoint.

False charges are to be expected though. I know you must believe that no one can leave your church with their eyes wide open. That must be a necessity for you.

hostile toward the church

The only thing I am hostile to is false doctrine, no less than you are.

We should be hostile to what God is hostile to.

, and his family and friends, who sound like cafeteria catholics and nominal catholics.

He would have to consider that his own choice to leave the church, and the lax and disobedient practices of his loved ones are maybe not the fault of the Church, but would be personal responsibility.

And a Christian genteman such as yourself should have the class and discretion not to talk about a person’s family without any knowledge at all.

You should expect more from yourself.

The people who ultimately raised me were as Catholic as they come, and even great examples of holiness. Please don’t seek to disparage the faith of my family. That is quite ungodly.

I am surprised you do not know better. Why you are speaking about another poster and his family in a thread about Catholic unity is quite out of line. Do you see me questioning even the very faith (“lax and disobedient”) of your family? This is a great testimony to your character.

Stay on topic and resist spreading rumors, lies, and gossip about other posters and their loved ones. Self control is a godly trait. Develop it.

…

 

[Atemi]

No need to candy coat it.

The disunity of Catholics is almost always candy coated or denied…except by those Catholics who do not seek to convert or have another agenda.

The teaching authority of the Church, which is acknowledged by the majority of the faithful continues to provide a unity of faith. Just out of curiousity, how many countries have you sampled to come to your conclusion that a “majority” of Catholics don’t believe the faith?

Experience.

Most Catholics just do not believe everything they are supposed to.

As Catholics grow in wisdom, this is quite evident to them as well.

I didnt simply say that they dont have a “statement of faith” - I said:
“Most Protestant communities dont even have something written that **clearly outlines the specifics of their faith and how those specifics apply to real life situations.” **
By a “statement of faith” do you mean the one or two pages of typed **** with no authorized signature, stamp or title (that could be interpreted thousands of different ways with no actual specifics) which gets handed out only if you ask for it?

Are you impressed by “stamps” and “titles”?

Is that what gives credence to your faith?

No.

Just like the ancient Creeds themselves, they need not “stamps” and “authorized signatures” to say what they mean.

Honestly, do you really think that comparing those “statements of faith”, generally, to something like the CCC is even remotely legitimate?

Of course.

If you need a huge, voluminous stack of paper to explain your faith, then something is seriously wrong, IMO.

The Christian faith is so, so much wonderfully simpler than that.

It is not a question of bragging. There will be times when the Church has greater or lesser unity. I dont disagree that at this point in time, in the US, that there may be considerable more disunity than there was 100 years ago. It may be very different in other countries (such as Africa) where they have greater unity presently.

Great. Africa.

But there will always be the same faith, preserved by the holy Spirit through the Magisterium, together with all the successors of the apostles, to unify the Church. And there is a written testimony of this faith in the Catechism as well as the lives of Catholic Saints which bear witness to the faith not only today, but for all time. You simply cant compare some 3 page document put together by Pastor Bob and Youth Pastor Gene - completely devoid of any historical continuity - into the same category as the faith preserved through the Magisterium and those who hold true to that faith. Sorry.

I do not think your Magisterium has preserved the faith as they should have, and that is evident from history itself.

So in actuality, I would probably find Pastor Bob’s mere 3 page document to be in a much higher class than much of what we find in the RC Catechism.

True enough, but can people have a unity of faith independent of a knowledge of exactly what that faith is? No they cannot. That is what the CCC and the Magisterium provide - a knowledge of what the faith actually is, so people can unite within it - not only today, but for all time.

But if they do not do so, no unity.

No unity, then no such apologetic to constantly abuse.

Perhaps, but you cant do it for any significant length of time because the doctrine of those churches simply didnt exist in the not to distant past. The faith needs to stretch all the way back to the beginning, and that is what separates a very few churches from all the rest. So your little scenario of comparing all other churches to your own only works if you limit yourself to your current time period. Christianity has been around a while - continue applying that test throughout its entire history and you will end up with that very short list of which Church can claim to have a unified faith throughout the history of the faith.

And that is definitely not the modernist RCC.

It may be the traditionalist RCC or the Orthodox, but that is a different thread.

…

 

[Atemi]

Hello Pax,

Even though I and others disagree with you on this subject, please know that we do have common ground.

Yes. I think we have some, but it is hard to find it through the polemics, IMV.

As Christians we all have Christ in common. Jesus is the focal point for unity.

I truly wish it was. If it was, we would not be having this discussion right now and one of the major apologetics for Catholicism would not be the supposed “unity” of its members.

No, first and foremost, nodding at the CCC is the focal point for Catholic unity. This I see time and time and time again.

“Are you my brethren? Do you believe everything in the CCC? Then you are my brethren.”

True faith and love for the Lord always comes second in my experience with serious Catholics. Not-so-serious Catholics, however, tend to see who are more true brethren by one’s faith and love for Christ and THEN maybe there is some common ground with the Catechism.

That is wildly interesting to me: that the “least faithful” Catholics seem often to have the greatest discernment.

Regardless, of our differences let us enjoy the peace and love of Christ and extend it to one another.

It is difficult when I keep getting invited “home” to the Body of Christ as if I am not in it already.

Part of extending the peace and love of Christ is to recognize His brothers. If you cannot discern who is in the church, the rest will come much harder.

I look to John chapter 17 for my perspective on this subject. Jesus is the focal point and he wants unity.

Agreed.

Christians can **only **be unified in Jesus if they all believe the same things about Jesus.

That is incorrect…especially when new “things about Jesus” are added every couple hundred years or so.

Please note that if you are correct, you just explained and recognized all the rampant disunity among Catholics that I have been chastised repeatedly for mentioning.

God gave us the scriptures. The Father sent his only son Jesus. Jesus established one Church. Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. That Church still exists today and history shows us which Church Jesus established. Only the Catholic Church has the history, the bona fides, and the pedigree to make the claim that it is the Church of Christ Jesus.

To me, that is all rhetoric. I am sorry.

If I want it in stereo I also can visit the Traditionalist boards, Eastern Orthodox boards, the Old Catholic boards, the sedavacantist boards, etc., etc…

Everyone is the Catholic Church and I should come home to all their churches which all are the “one” church Christ founded…

The body of Christ which is the Church is paramount.

The problem is, by definition, the modernist Roman Catholic Church cannot be the Body of Christ.

Yes, the Body of Christ must be discerned. Thinking it is merely your church, when most of your own do not even believe everyhting they should, is a huge mistake.

Only the faithful are in the Body of Christ. Only the redeemed and the regenerate.

The Church’s teachings are paramount for unifying the members. The sinners within are either in agreement or disagreement with the teachings.

And all the disagreement thus means disunity.

It seems many other Catholics in this thread want to just remove all those that disagree from the equation and then…POOF! …you got unity.

As an ex-Catholic all I can do is shake my head at the denial.

Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about supposed RC unity. This is the same apologetic I am repudiating in this thread:

"The unity of the Church stands out as a fact altogether unparalleled in human history. Her members all over the world are united by the profession of a common faith, by participation in a common worship, and by obedience to a common authority.

One and all hold the same belief, join in the same religious ceremonies, and acknowledge in the successor of Peter the same supreme ruler. Nothing but a supernatural power can explain this. It is a proof manifest to all minds, even to the simple and the unlettered, that the Church is a Divine society."

newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm

This is all patently false and demonstrably wrong.

Yet this is the polemic that is too common and which ultimately produces OPs like the one in this thread.

…

 

[SFLCatholic]

We should be hostile to what God is hostile to.

God is not hostile towards His Church, The RCC, the One True Faith. So why are you?

 

[po18guy]

Your experience is the same as mine.

All claims to unity I have found have been only that: just claims.

Unity on paper but not in the streets is no unity at all. Any Catechism can be unified with itself. Where is the impressiveness of that?

It is actual people that must be truly unified to declare any sense of unity, but that is not what we find in the RCC. I was a Catholic for most of my life, and it’s always been this way.

…

Atemi,

May you be filled with the Lord’s peace. What is it that you are searching for? You clearly do not have the fullness of it now, since you are here even though you display apparent disdain for the church.

Please know that Christianity is a lifetime process of conversion - that of heart. What you see, even in the church you now attend, is individuals at various stages of conversion. This is God’s grace in action. Do you have a problem with that?

Claims will be made-you must weigh the claims to know their value. But, until you realize that you are somewhere with us on this conversion road, what you see around you appears imperfect. It is a reflection of ourselves.

You hunger for the perfection and unity of heaven. Please maintain hope, for it will not be found on earth.

 

[guanophore]

And I can go to a modernist Catholic Church down the street and they can teach a verse out of the Bible and come to one conclucion…then go to the local Traditionalist Catholic Church in the neighborhood - and they teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse…and then I try the EO Catholic Church in the next town and they then teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse.

Can they all reconcile these three different teachings? I honestly doubt it.

“Wait a second” screams the RC apologist “you are talking about three totally different churches. That’s not fair!”

Hello?

…

I find it highly unlikely that you wil find any priest teaching doctrine from a verse, since that is not how Catholics teach doctrine. However, even if this highly unlikely situation were to occur, then each, and possibly all of the homilists may be out of order, if they are not teaching the one unified doctrine of our faith. The failure of certain individuals to adhere to, and even to properly teach the doctrine does not nullify the unity of the doctrine.

 

[RevDrNorth]

God is not hostile towards His Church, The RCC, the One True Faith. So why are you?

I know you address this to Atemi and I am not Atemi but I see you separate out the RCC from the Orthodox. I am understanding you to mean…“God is not hostile towards His Church (all Christian beleivers), the RCC, the One True Faith (One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church aka Orthodoxy). So why are you?”

God bless you for your insight and wisdom into history! I too believe that the Orthodox Church is the one most closely aligned with the early church, etc.

Rev North

 

[guanophore]

Which is true, if not more so since there are so many of you (one billion?).

One does have to wonder how many real Catholics there are.

Catholic disunity

The facts are that a majority of Catholics do not believe in every doctrinal and moral teaching of your church. Only when I get on internet forums do all the Catholics I know deny this with every fiber of their being.

There is no such thing as Catholic disunity. In order to be Catholic, by definition, one must be unified with the teaching of the Church. If one is not, then one is not Catholic. They may be Catholic by family tradition, or nominally (like a Jew that does not practice his faith), but they cannot be called Catholic without unity and obedience to the Bishop of Rome, and subjection to the docrinal and moral teachings of the church. The reason the CAtholics on here deny your false assertions is that we know what it really means to be CAtholic.

Trying to convince non-Catholics that Catholics are more unified than the church from where they come is silly. There are fewer more splintered Christians than Catholics.

You know, I think it is silly to try to convince people about unity. Jesus said that people would know us by our love, and I think that is more convincing.

Unity comes when real people are in harmony with each other on what they believe…at least that’s what Catholics tell me all the time.

Well, this is true, with the caveat that they are also in unity with the Apostolic Teachings. What good does it do to all be in unity with one another, if people are off base with the truth?

Bragging that you have a Catechism (which arrived very late in history, by the way) says not one iota about the doctrinal unity of actual Catholics.

We have a catechism from the first century called the Didache, and the teachings have not changed since that time. Our current catechism has been updated so that it can be more easily understood in the modern world, but the content of the doctrine has not changed.

But even within that one orange, you still are stuck with about 1 billion Catholics who truly do disagree on almost everything.

Maybe people that call themselves Catholic, or don’t know any better. By definition, not Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

Which is true, if not more so since there are so many of you (one billion?).

One does have to wonder how many real Catholics there are.

Catholic disunity

The facts are that a majority of Catholics do not believe in every doctrinal and moral teaching of your church. Only when I get on internet forums do all the Catholics I know deny this with every fiber of their being.

There is no such thing as Catholic disunity. In order to be Catholic, by definition, one must be unified with the teaching of the Church. If one is not, then one is not Catholic. They may be Catholic by family tradition, or nominally (like a Jew that does not practice his faith), but they cannot be called Catholic without unity and obedience to the Bishop of Rome, and subjection to the docrinal and moral teachings of the church. The reason the CAtholics on here deny your false assertions is that we know what it really means to be CAtholic.

Trying to convince non-Catholics that Catholics are more unified than the church from where they come is silly. There are fewer more splintered Christians than Catholics.

You know, I think it is silly to try to convince people about unity. Jesus said that people would know us by our love, and I think that is more convincing.

Unity comes when real people are in harmony with each other on what they believe…at least that’s what Catholics tell me all the time.

Well, this is true, with the caveat that they are also in unity with the Apostolic Teachings. What good does it do to all be in unity with one another, if people are off base with the truth?

Bragging that you have a Catechism (which arrived very late in history, by the way) says not one iota about the doctrinal unity of actual Catholics.

We have a catechism from the first century called the Didache, and the teachings have not changed since that time. Our current catechism has been updated so that it can be more easily understood in the modern world, but the content of the doctrine has not changed.

But even within that one orange, you still are stuck with about 1 billion Catholics who truly do disagree on almost everything.

Maybe people that call themselves Catholic, or don’t know any better. By definition, not Catholic.

I must have gone to a million (I’m exaggerating obviously) different churches before coming home to Catholicism, and the only thing that unifies all non-Catholic Christians (besides God, of course) is their “dislike” of the Papacy.

So the same Pope unifies both sides.

I have seen this too! Excellent point!

Thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph.

 

[Nordar]

The disunity of Catholics is almost always candy coated or denied…except by those Catholics who do not seek to convert or have another agenda.

…

You just keep making things up, as if you keep telling yourself it is so it will be so. The fact that some Catholics ( not the billions you invent in your mind) choose to not be in unity (that’s disunity)
is NOT almost always candy coated or denied.
Not one person on this thread has candy coated or denied that their are Catholics who do their own thing and are therefore in disunity. You are like a record that is stuck, no matter how many times someone posts something to refute your absurd fantasies you still come back with the same old, same old, rhetoric.
It really is quite fasinating to watch, when I read posts such as yours it never ceases to strengthen my faith. So in essence I thank you for that. God Bless.

 

[guanophore]

We are not talking about unified teaching (whatever that is).

This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper.

…

They are one and the same, Atemi. Anyone who is not in unity in the teachings, in the doctrinal and moral principles handed down to us from the Apostles is NOT CATHOLIC! Saying they are Catholic does not make them so.

 

[RevDrNorth]

I think there certainly is disunity among Catholics as with any other group of human beings BUT there is also remarkable unity because the Roman Catholic Church has defined what it is to be Roman Catholic. So, yes when I was Catholic and manning a pro life booth at church we had a woman going into mass come and chew us out as she was pro choice. On the surface that looks like disunity but that is really someone who is not playing by the rules of the game. It is her that was out of unity with the church.

The Orthodox also have (based on the 7 Ecumencial Councils) determined what it is to be Orthodox. A pro abortion politician may call himself Orthodox but they are not following the tenets of the faith. Again, it is not the Church that is out of step but the individual who is not in unity.

Groups like the Baptists are very individualistic. There is no unity. Each congregation makes its own rules. Even though they may belong to the Southern Baptist Convention, the authority of beleif and so on rests with the local congregation. Anglicans may have the 39 articles but lord knows they have been free to believe whatever they choose. Including the retired Bishop of Newark (spon) who said we need to get away from a theistic notion of God.

Rev North

 

[po18guy]

Yes.

It functionally is.

One billion differing Roman Catholics all under one roof.

This is why the Protestant method is more honest, IMO.

Protestants do publically and actually what Catholics do privately. A couple that stays miserably “married” is not fooling God into thinking that they have not already divorced.

Also, when you are taught from a child that to leave your church probably means eternal damnation, that has a very serious effect on people. Biblical churches don’t teach such errors.

…

What I can’t understand is why you care about any of this. Are we all doomed to hell? If not, why aren’t you preaching to the unbaptized?

Christ’ peace be with you.

 

[Nordar]

I think there certainly is disunity among Catholics as with any other group of human beings BUT there is also remarkable unity because the Roman Catholic Church has defined what it is to be Roman Catholic. So, yes when I was Catholic and manning a pro life booth at church we had a woman going into mass come and chew us out as she was pro choice. On the surface that looks like disunity but that is really someone who is not playing by the rules of the game. It is her that was out of unity with the church.

The Orthodox also have (based on the 7 Ecumencial Councils) determined what it is to be Orthodox. A pro abortion politician may call himself Orthodox but they are not following the tenets of the faith. Again, it is not the Church that is out of step but the individual who is not in unity.

Groups like the Baptists are very individualistic. There is no unity. Each congregation makes its own rules. Even though they may belong to the Southern Baptist Convention, the authority of beleif and so on rests with the local congregation. Anglicans may have the 39 articles but lord knows they have been free to believe whatever they choose. Including the retired Bishop of Newark (spon) who said we need to get away from a theistic notion of God.

Rev North

Well now this post makes perfect sense, explaining very clearly what everyone has been saying.

Atemi will however fail to read and comprehend the sense and truth in the post.

 

[po18guy]

If disagreeing with the common apologetic automatically means one is talking “trash” about the Catholic faith, then you must be prepared to be a very unhappy person…

Atemi, you’re projecting here!

You have done NOTHING to build up the church. You are not simply disagreeing, you are condemning the Body of Christ because of the Pharisees. Beware lest you condemn yourself!

May the PEACE of Christ find you and reside in your heart.

 

[mgrfin]

I know you address this to Atemi and I am not Atemi but I see you separate out the RCC from the Orthodox. I am understanding you to mean…“God is not hostile towards His Church (all Christian beleivers), the RCC, the One True Faith (One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church aka Orthodoxy). So why are you?”

God bless you for your insight and wisdom into history! I too believe that the Orthodox Church is the one most closely aligned with the early church, etc.

Rev North

The ‘facade’ is the Roman Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, founded by Jesus Christ, and filled with the Holy Spirit who guides it and keeps it from error and evil.

peace