The RCC facade

[Atemi]

The point, as relayed in the OP, is that all the claims to Catholic doctrinal unity do not stack up to experience or reality.

The point is that the factual authority that establishes Catholic doctrine is a reality that n-Cs can not even attempt to lay any realistic claim to

This thread is not about the supposed authority of your church but about the doctrinally unity of its members…and especially the lack thereof.

…and the fact that your entire argument is based not upon faithful Catholics but those who dissent and reject the valid teachings of the faith.

My argument is based upon all Catholics…you know, the “1 billion” we hear about every day on boards like this.

If you are going to say that Catholics are doctrinally unified, that means they must be actually doctrinally unified, which they surely are not.

Insisting we all measure Catholic doctrinal unity by counting only the (unknown) number of Catholics that are doctrinally unified…but conveniently ignoring the majority of other Catholics…is totally silly.

All I need to do to determine RC doctrinal unity is compare every denominator of Catholic to the CCC and stated moral teachings of your church.

Yet you do not do so… In fact you ignore all of us who do indeed stand with the authoritatively defined dogma and doctrines of the church.

How do I ignore you?..the tiny minority of you, of course.

The very fact that there are so very few of those you describe only goes to prove the point again.

That is all one needs to do to see that all claims to Catholic doctrinal unity only exist on paper and on Catholic apologetics websites. The reality here on the ground tells a much, much different story.

The problem here is that you attempt to use this to decry the Catholic faith for something that your own faith communities can not even begin to assert. That makes this a specious argument from n-Cs.

I am not decrying anything about the Catholic faith. What I decrying is the false apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified while non-Catholics are not.

That is false right from the get-go, and folks like the OP are not amused. I don’t blame him. I feel the same.

…

 

[Atemi]

You are so far off on your argument its scary.

You are pre-supposing that people are perfect.

No. I am presupposing that when RC apologists say that Catholics are doctrinally or morally unified, Catholics actually are.

Reality tells a very different tale, my friend.

And by assuming such, even though you don’t enunciate it, you invalidate Jesus’ mission.

Nonsense. I do no such thing.

By telling the people that don’t know any better that Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified, when they are not, invalidates the truth.

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[Pax]

If only a hundred Catholics world wide remained faithful to the teachings of the Church, and everyone else did their own thing we would still be looking at the one true Church. Moreover, the unity of doctrine would remain. The wheat and the chaff are what they are, and they are mentioned in scripture just as unity is also mentioned in scripture.

The entire idea that the existence of dissenters indicatea that there is no unity is nonsense. Unity does not depend upon the actions of the dissenters. The dissenters separate themselves from the truth and unity given to them as a gift in the Church established by Jesus himself.

 

[RobHom]

Oh now I’m really torn. What should I do? Collect firewood for the heretics or flip hamburgers for the Tiber-swimmers beach barbecue? Can someone help me?

:extrahappy: :extrahappy: How about one big pile of firewood, and we’ll use it as we need it!!

Thanks for the laugh!! It made my day!!

 

[RobHom]

No. I am presupposing that when RC apologists say that Catholics are doctrinally or morally unified, Catholics actually are.
Reality tells a very different tale, my friend.
Nonsense. I do no such thing.
By telling the people that don’t know any better that Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified, when they are not, invalidates the truth.

…

What I am having a problem with in your posts is that you are utilizing a great deal of “conjecture” and producing little concrete support for that conjecture. Your argument is invalid based on mere conjecture.

It would be very easy to apply the same standard to “protestants”, given the number of different “denominations”, all of whom in one way or the other declare the others to be “wrong” in their theologies.

Please, lets eliminate the scatological inferences… ok?

 

[FrankLawrence]

No. I am presupposing that when RC apologists say that Catholics are doctrinally or morally unified, Catholics actually are.

Reality tells a very different tale, my friend

If you knew anything about reality, you’d be a Catholic, too. I suppose, though, that if St. Paul was able to see the Truth, there is still hope for you. You are comparing true Catholics to cafeteria Catholics. I challenge you to name even ONE doctrine that is a matter of faith or morals that all TRUE Roman Catholics who know their faith are not unified on. That is the challenge. If you can’t give an answer (which you can’t, given the question) then not only have you failed in your argument on this thread, but you lose all credibility to say anything about anything on any thread.

 

[Atemi]

If only a hundred Catholics world wide remained faithful to the teachings of the Church, and everyone else did their own thing we would still be looking at the one true Church. Moreover, the unity of doctrine would remain. The wheat and the chaff are what they are, and they are mentioned in scripture just as unity is also mentioned in scripture.

The entire idea that the existence of dissenters indicatea that there is no unity is nonsense. Unity does not depend upon the actions of the dissenters. The dissenters separate themselves from the truth and unity given to them as a gift in the Church established by Jesus himself.

All you do here is make the case that only those Catholics that are doctrinally unified count when speaking about the doctrinal unity of 1 billion Catholics.

When we stack the deck like that, then we can come up with any answer we please. In that case, all Protestants that are doctrinally unified show the pure unity of Protestants too.

Wonderful. We are all magically “unified.”

Those of us who are more aware of the actual unity of Catholics can only shrug our shoulders at such an apologetic.

…

 

[Atemi]

What I am having a problem with in your posts is that you are utilizing a great deal of “conjecture” and producing little concrete support for that conjecture. Your argument is invalid based on mere conjecture.

Conjecture?

LOL, no.

I was a Catholic for the majority of my life, my family is all Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I am around Catholicism on a daily basis. My life is immersed in Catholicism and among Catholics.

I know better.

Catholics are neither morally or doctrinally unified. Not by a long shot.

…

 

[Atemi]

If you knew anything about reality, you’d be a Catholic, too. I suppose, though, that if St. Paul was able to see the Truth, there is still hope for you. You are comparing true Catholics to cafeteria Catholics. I challenge you to name even ONE doctrine that is a matter of faith or morals that all TRUE Roman Catholics who know their faith are not unified on. That is the challenge. If you can’t give an answer (which you can’t, given the question) then not only have you failed in your argument on this thread, but you lose all credibility to say anything about anything on any thread.

Please, Frank.

Sure.

If you want to stack the deck with only the Catholics you approve of, then you can make up anything you want.

We are talking about the doctrinal and moral unity of one blillion Catholics. It doesn’t exist.

Stacking the deck with only those that are doctrinally unified…while ignoring all other Catholics you do not approve of…cannot be taken seriously as a trustworthy measure of Catholic “unity.”

All you will come to at the end of the day is that a minority of Catholics are doctrinally unified…something the rest of us already know.

As to padding results, I can do the very same and then declare Protestants all to be doctrinally unified as well. But of course, for some strange reason, you would call me on such sloppy math.

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[po18guy]

Please, lets eliminate the scatological inferences… ok?

Lets leave our differences to the eschatological.

Realistically, Catholics call Protestants to the fullness of truth. We believe everything in the bible that Protestants do, but yet even more. The Catholic church simply has more of everything: books of Sacred Scripture, Sacraments, members, manners of worship, nationalities, races, etc. You can find a Catholic (“universal”) church in every continent and nation on earth. You can attend mass in any language and know exactly which part of the Sacrifice of the mass you are in, so that you may celebrate with them.

Christianity lost an incalculable amount of richness in the reformation. The result of which is that Luther’s much desired reforms came about anyway, but not in his time frame. Nevertheless, he decided that he and a group of followers were wiser than the deposit of faith accumulated over 1,500 years of settled Christianity. The Body of Christ was shattered forever, while the body of satan remains unified. Is it any wonder that evil triumphs in this world?

Because of the “reformation”, the crippled Body of Christ now qualifies for a disabled parking permit. Heaven weeps.

This is precisely why we call Protestants to UNITY. It’s not our church-it’s Gods.

Christ’s peace to all.

 

[po18guy]

Conjecture?

LOL, no.

I was a Catholic for the majority of my life, my family is all Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I am around Catholicism on a daily basis. My life is immersed in Catholicism and among Catholics.

I know better.

Catholics are neither morally or doctrinally unified. Not by a long shot.

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Do you ever ask the Lord to remove your bitterness and/or cynicism about the faith? That is a detectable undertone in your posts, intended or not. If you were well catechized in the Catholic church, you would have known that you were walking away from Christ Himself. It is all a problem of catechesis.

Please don’t focus on the sinners that surround you to the detriment of the truth, which is God in Christ. He ate with prostitutes and extortioners (tax collectors). He does not call the righteous, but SINNERS. That is why I am there. You are in my prayers.

Christ be with you.

 

[FrankLawrence]

Please, Frank.

Sure.

If you want to stack the deck with only the Catholics you approve of, then you can make up anything you want.

We are talking about the doctrinal and moral unity of one blillion Catholics. It doesn’t exist.

Stacking the deck with only those that are doctrinally unified…while ignoring all other Catholics you do not approve of…cannot be taken seriously as a trustworthy measure of Catholic “unity.”

All you will come to at the end of the day is that a minority of Catholics are doctrinally unified…something the rest of us already know.

As to padding results, I can do the very same and then declare Protestants all to be doctrinally unified as well. But of course, for some strange reason, you would call me on such sloppy math.

…

I issued you a challenge to back up your statements with even one example. Even one fact. Even one source of reference other than your own mind. You failed to do that. Instead, you scoff at the challenge because you know that you are defeated. You lose. The truth wins. Would you like me to give you a list of examples of what the Roman Catholic Church is united on? Read the Catechism.

 

[Atemi]

Because of the “reformation”, the crippled Body of Christ now qualifies for a disabled parking permit. Heaven weeps.

Amazing.

In your hurry to lash out at non-Catholics, you didn’t even think twice about calling Christ a cripple.

This is precisely why we call Protestants to UNITY. It’s not our church-it’s Gods.

Since Roman Catholics have no more unity than non-Catholics, your call is not very attractive at all.

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[Inquirer]

Atemi, I think you may have missed my post on page 2. I know you’ll probably disagree, but I’d like to see what you’ll come up with.

 

[Tonks40]

Amazing.

In your hurry to lash out at non-Catholics, you didn’t even think twice about calling Christ a cripple.

This precisely shows the profound difference between the singular/linear thinking non-Catholics hold versus how Catholics view Christ’s presence here on Earth in the Body of Christ. We know Christ is perfect, but we also know that by Christ’s incarnation, He is not immune to the hurt of the break caused by the reformation.

When we speak of doctrinal unity in the Church, it is truly a universal teaching. I can go to the local non-denominational church down the street - they can teach a verse out of the Bible and come to one conclusion…then go to the local baptist church in the neighborhood - and they teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse. Can they reconcile these two different teachings? I honestly doubt it. How can the Body of Christ, which non-Catholics claim are united, justify two different lines of teaching??? No correction, no unification of thought…no real guidance.

What a lot of us are asking our non-Catholic brothers and sisters is to learn and understand why our doctrines and teachings are so rich and deep. There is nothing added, nothing made up. Only a deeper understanding of the Truths that Our Lord, through Jesus Christ, has revealed to us here on Earth. There is a lot of beauty to this revelation that I feel many non-Catholic simply miss, and it’s really kinda sad…

 

[Teflon93]

Amazing.

In your hurry to lash out at non-Catholics, you didn’t even think twice about calling Christ a cripple.

And in your hurry to lash out at Catholics, you don’t think twice about pretending not to understand a metaphor when you see one.

Do you ever think twice before violating Christ’s commandment to “love one’s neighbor as oneself”, Atemi?

Since Roman Catholics have no more unity than non-Catholics, your call is not very attractive at all.

…

Riiiiight. So what is this Catholic Church you constantly argue against, then? Since we’re not united, I presume you’re criticizing disparate bodies in a loose federation. From now on, why don’t you list by priest and parish which of these various “Catholic Churches” you mean, since by your argument there is no single such entity.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Since Roman Catholics have no more unity than non-Catholics, your call is not very attractive at all. …

So, Atemi, what is the non-Catholic (or simply protestant) teaching on…

…Communion?
…effects of Baptism?
…the last days?
…use of statues in churches?
…Mary’s virginity?
…the Sacraments?
…etc., etc., etc.

Please, do you have an answer? NO, you don’t. There is no such thing!

Unlike you, we can present you the Catholic teaching - theaching which is unaffected by the number of heretics what claim otherwise and that is clearly stated and written down. All members of the Church of Christ MUST believe those teachings. If they reject these teachings they place themselves outside of the Church.

This discussion is pointless. It reminds me of a three year old who is trying to persuade his parents that he can fly so much that he even starts believing it.

 

[mercygate]

Conjecture?

LOL, no.

I was a Catholic for the majority of my life, my family is all Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I am around Catholicism on a daily basis. My life is immersed in Catholicism and among Catholics.

I know better.

Catholics are neither morally or doctrinally unified. Not by a long shot.

…

Your quibble is not about “doctrinal unity.” The Church does have defined doctrine that is stable. We actually HAVE a body of doctrine.

Your quibble is about what you perceive to be hypocrisy. You are saying that “the Church” (whatever you mean by that) is hypocritical in claiming doctrinal unity. What you really mean is that Catholics are hypocritical because many of them do not hold to the official teaching.

This may be true. In my case, however, the only hypocrisy I have ever felt compelled to judge is my own.

 

[po18guy]

Your quibble is not about “doctrinal unity.” The Church does have defined doctrine that is stable. We actually HAVE a body of doctrine.

Your quibble is about what you perceive to be hypocrisy. You are saying that “the Church” (whatever you mean by that) is hypocritical in claiming doctrinal unity. What you really mean is that Catholics are hypocritical because many of them do not hold to the official teaching.

This may be true. In my case, however, the only hypocrisy I have ever felt compelled to judge is my own.

Let’s pray for this person. That appears to be all we can do at this point.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Bishopite]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice. The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials. How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating? There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women. The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups? How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion? None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because of more study of the early church. My wife had asked me to arrange a RC Priest to visit and explain their church to our family. I have spoken to three different catholic churches and found none are the same. Specifically, I recently had a long talk with a deacon who informed they would be happy to meet with me, but that I would probably not be interested in their church because of my more conservative church history (coming from evangelical churches) and their more “progressive” theology. I asked what that meant and was told that RC’s are accountable to their conscience as much as doctrine (they had no problem with contraception for instance).

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

Since you have no idea what history teaches and are making false claims, can you post the Catholic denominations for us??