The RCC facade

[Bishopite]

[Timmy Z;2653228]My experience is that going from denom to denom is nearly the equivalent of going parrish to parrish.

This is obviously an emotional issue for you and not an intellectual one. If it were then you would actually read eclessial Christian history or be able to cite some respected historical work. But it seems you are relying on your “experience” which is purely subjective. What you are acting on is called subjective inductive experientialism instead of reading scholarly historical works and objective truth.

 

[Nordar]

This discussion is pointless. It reminds me of a three year old who is trying to persuade his parents that he can fly so much that he even starts believing it.

Thank you, I truly was thinking it was just me, Atemi’s posts just are absurd, they make no sense.

1. Truthfully I have no clue what he is even arguing about, The Church does have defined doctrines.
2. Catholics who do not adhere to The Doctrines are implementing their own free wills. They are therefore living Outside The Doctrines of The Church.

Because 2) are doing their own thing, that in no way Negates The Doctrines of The Church… I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that?

We have Laws in this Country, You cannot murder someone or else you will be punished. Because someone commits murder and does their own thing does that mean the Law does not exist?

Poster needs our prayers!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

My argument is based upon all Catholics…you know, the “1 billion” we hear about every day on boards like this.

You know all those people? However did you accomplish that?

Atemi:

If you are going to say that Catholics are doctrinally unified, that means they must be actually doctrinally unified, which they surely are not.

You persist in making no sense at all. We have one unchanging body of doctrine. How can one thing be unified? The Church community however is unified around that one unchanging body of doctrine. That is we agree that such a body of doctrine exists. Not all of us agree with it.

Such is life with tares and wheat living side by side. We don’t have to all agree with it for it to unify us. That is where Protestantism falls down. Nothing exists to unify you. It is not a question of whether or not you agree with each other or not. There is nothing there for you to agree with it. Well nothing that could be called ‘unchanging’ always and everywhere for all people.

Atemi:

Insisting we all measure Catholic doctrinal unity by counting only the (unknown) number of Catholics that are doctrinally unified…but conveniently ignoring the majority of other Catholics…is totally silly.

No, that is how you – a disinterested party – defines it. Just because you define it that way doesn’t mean that your definition is true.

I am not decrying anything about the Catholic faith. What I decrying is the false apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified while non-Catholics are not.

You sure fooled me. Your posts certainly decry the Catholic faith. Afterall is not part of our faith about being the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church?

That is false right from the get-go, and folks like the OP are not amused. I don’t blame him. I feel the same.

Feeeeeeeelings… Whoa whoa whoa… feeeeelings… :harp:

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Its a tragic result of Americanism. Democracy and Christianity don’t mix well. Christ did NOT implement a democratic form of government, and a maleable constitution that can be amended as necessary. Isaiah repeats over and over that God does not change. He doesn’t change His mind, and He doesn’t change His rules. In a civil democracy, if you don’t like a certain part of society, when enough people band together and raise their voices loud enough, changes are made. That doesn’t happen in the church and it ruffles people to no end when the Church won’t capitulate to their secular desires…like woman priests. It won’t ever happen, regardless of how many people fuss about it. The difference is that in America, you can dislike the laws of the country and the policies of the government and still legitimately call yourself an American. People who rebel against the long standing Church doctrines may THINK that they are Catholic, but what is that word for people who protest against Catholic Doctrines…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

All you do here is make the case that only those Catholics that are doctrinally unified count when speaking about the doctrinal unity of 1 billion Catholics.

That would be all Catholics.

Atemi:

When we stack the deck like that, then we can come up with any answer we please.

Show us, Atemi!

Atemi:

In that case, all Protestants that are doctrinally unified show the pure unity of Protestants too.

OK. What doctrine unifies them?

Wonderful. We are all magically “unified.”

Magic works?

Those of us who are more aware of the actual unity of Catholics can only shrug our shoulders at such an apologetic.

Shrugging your shoulders is good exercise. I reckon if it’s not the mind which is being exercised…

…

 

[Pax]

All you do here is make the case that only those Catholics that are doctrinally unified count when speaking about the doctrinal unity of 1 billion Catholics.

When we stack the deck like that, then we can come up with any answer we please. In that case, all Protestants that are doctrinally unified show the pure unity of Protestants too.

Wonderful. We are all magically “unified.”

Those of us who are more aware of the actual unity of Catholics can only shrug our shoulders at such an apologetic.

…

You have utterly missed the point. The unity is in those that adhere to the truth. The truth is Jesus Christ and the truth that is Christ is contained and expressed in and through the Church that He established. No non-Catholic denomination and no rebellious Catholic possesses full unity with that truth. You are making numerous logical disconnects, and your thinking is not congruent with the clear messages of scripture concerning unity. Likewise, your views are not congruent with what scripture says about those that are members in name only, or those that disown the faith.

When you can logically connect your thinking with what scripture says on these things then you might get somewhere, but this is not about to happen because scripture and common sense deny your view. The wheat and the tares will exist side by side and the Lord will sort them out.

If you wish to apply your logic to the Catholic Church, please apply it to your own church community. I guarantee you that within the congregation with whom you fellowship, you will find many people with whom you disagree on some theological point. What are you and your church doing about it? Can you control their thoughts and behaviors? Moreover, who is to say who is right and who is wrong in your local congregation when it comes to these things? Should you abandon the entire idea of Church and unity because the wheat and the tares stand side by side during worship? I don’t think so.

Study John chapter 17 and then try to convince yourself that unity is simply a fiction or if it is something real that can be found and enjoyed.

 

[po18guy]

Its a tragic result of Americanism. Democracy and Christianity don’t mix well. Christ did NOT implement a democratic form of government, and a maleable constitution that can be amended as necessary. Isaiah repeats over and over that God does not change. He doesn’t change His mind, and He doesn’t change His rules. In a civil democracy, if you don’t like a certain part of society, when enough people band together and raise their voices loud enough, changes are made. That doesn’t happen in the church and it ruffles people to no end when the Church won’t capitulate to their secular desires…like woman priests. It won’t ever happen, regardless of how many people fuss about it. The difference is that in America, you can dislike the laws of the country and the policies of the government and still legitimately call yourself an American. People who rebel against the long standing Church doctrines may THINK that they are Catholic, but what is that word for people who protest against Catholic Doctrines…

Amen! We are wasting our time on such non-responsive, argumentative posters. They appear to have no interest in dialog. Signed below.

 

[po18guy]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice. The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials. How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating? There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women. The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups? How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion? None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because of more study of the early church. My wife had asked me to arrange a RC Priest to visit and explain their church to our family. I have spoken to three different catholic churches and found none are the same. Specifically, I recently had a long talk with a deacon who informed they would be happy to meet with me, but that I would probably not be interested in their church because of my more conservative church history (coming from evangelical churches) and their more “progressive” theology. I asked what that meant and was told that RC’s are accountable to their conscience as much as doctrine (they had no problem with contraception for instance).

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

IF what you say is true, it needs to be reported, by someone of conscience, to the Bishop. You mention that you are Evangelical. Forgive me, but I am suspicious of your motives. I am testing everything, as Saint Paul admonished. If you seek the truth, then please ask questions-but also please READ the replies. You will find a very warm, welcoming congregation here.

Keep in mind that, for almost 2,000 years, theological scholars, martyrs and Saints have lived and died by Catholic doctrine. I consider the least of them to be far superior to me. Trace the church history, without interruption, back to Christ Himself.

Let’s roll!

 

[po18guy]

That would be all Catholics.

Show us, Atemi!

OK. What doctrine unifies them?

Magic works?

Shrugging your shoulders is good exercise. I reckon if it’s not the mind which is being exercised…

…

OUCH! uch:

Who was it that said, “The truth hurts, but it heals”?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

For all the dissention that supposedly exists within the RCC, I’ve yet to hear a sermon that said something against official church teacing. And I’ve visited different parishes in different places.

 

[bankerdavid]

Hello Michael,

All I need to do to determine RC doctrinal unity is compare every denominator of Catholic to the CCC and stated moral teachings of your church.

That is all one needs to do to see that all claims to Catholic doctrinal unity only exist on paper and on Catholic apologetics websites. The reality here on the ground tells a much, much different story.

The sooner more Catholics just come out and recognize and admit this, the more that can be done to rectify it. This is one of the major points of the OP itself. Merely sweeping these truths under the carpet will not fix them or win any points with those who know better.

…

Doctrine-a code of beliefs, or “a body of teachings” or “instructions”, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system. The Greek analogy is the etymology of catechism.

Doctrine is the stated belief system that the faithful are to adhere to. This is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Just as the laws where you live are stated and written down. In fact, unified.

Just as very few people follow every single law of the location where they live, there are, sadly, some Catholics who don’t understand that, to BE Catholic, you have to believe the whole doctrine, every bit of it. You don’t have to understand all of it, though it helps, and questioning is not the same as not believing.

The fact is, the doctrine has not changed, and is unified and universal for Catholics. And that’s true whether priest X or Bishop A says otherwise. The doctrine is solid.

Which cannot be said of protestant denominations…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

The sooner more Catholics just come out and recognize and admit this, the more that can be done to rectify it.

I gather you have a plan to rectify what you find wrong in the Catholic Church?

 

[RobHom]

Feeeeeeeelings… Whoa whoa whoa… feeeeelings… :harp:

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: Stop it, you’re killing me!! Now I have to clean off my laptop!!!

 

[Atemi]

So, Atemi, what is the non-Catholic (or simply protestant) teaching on…

…Communion?
…effects of Baptism?
…the last days?
…use of statues in churches?
…Mary’s virginity?
…the Sacraments?
…etc., etc., etc.

Please, do you have an answer? NO, you don’t. There is no such thing!

Irrelevant, Gandalf. Start your own thread if you like.

This thread is not about non-Catholic doctrines.

It is about the supposed unity among Catholics that does not exist in reality.

Stay on topic.

…

 

[Atemi]

Since Roman Catholics have no more unity than non-Catholics, your call is not very attractive at all.

Riiiiight. So what is this Catholic Church you constantly argue against, then?

It depends on the thread and the authors or hosts. If I am speaking to a Traditionalist, I am talking about his Catholic Church, when I speak to an Eastern Orthodox, I am talking about his Catholic Church, etc…

There are so many “Catholic Churches” it is hard to keep track.

Since we’re not united, I presume you’re criticizing disparate bodies in a loose federation.

Merely a handful of you out of “one billion” does not make for a united set of Roman Catholics.

You know this, Teflon. Come on.

…

 

[heisenburg]

Why is it that if the Catholic Church has some people that don’t know their faith very well, it is a ‘fatal flaw’ of the Church

If A protestant church has some members that are laxed, its the individuals fault

All rites of the Catholic Church teach the SAME dogma. there is no difference. If a pastor, or even lay catholic teaches something COUNTER to that, he should be corrected, if he does not submit, he can no longer be called catholic

Do you judge any organization based on its dumbest member?

If you hold that same light to a protestant church you get the same setup. People that don’t know their faith

It is a problem on BOTH sides of the aisle

Saying that the various rites are NOT in agreement is Hogwash…

And ANYONE that says the protestants are in agreement on the ‘core’ documents has their head in the sand. There is no such thing as core documents in Protestantism.

I find it hilarious that ANYONE would says Catholic rites are only unified on paper, and all of protestantism is unified in belief.

Hilarious

In Christ

 

[Atemi]

You have utterly missed the point. The unity is in those that adhere to the truth.

Basically, there is only unity among a fraction of Catholics.

That is not impressive and does not jibe with the usual apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified.

No.

When you can logically connect your thinking with what scripture says on these things then you might get somewhere, but this is not about to happen because scripture and common sense deny your view. The wheat and the tares will exist side by side and the Lord will sort them out.

Yet not one Catholic will ever give the same explanation for differing Protestants…when they are more than willing to excuse their own differences in such a fashion.

It seems that Catholics get a pass (“tares”) for all their disunity, but non-Catholics don’t.

How can us non-Catholics take such an arbitrary and biased position seriously?

…

 

[Teflon93]

It depends on the thread and the authors or hosts. If I am speaking to a Traditionalist, I am talking about his Catholic Church, when I speak to an Eastern Orthodox, I am talking about his Catholic Church, etc…

There are so many “Catholic Churches” it is hard to keep track.

If there are so many, then you need to be VERY specific so everyone will know which you mean.

Merely a handful of you out of “one billion” does not make for a united set of Roman Catholics.

That’s an interesting claim. Where’s your evidence? I’m a stats guy—please provide your links to the raw data.

You know this, Teflon. Come on.

…

Nope, not at all. Sure seems like a waste of time printing that great big Catechism in so many different editions if it only applied to “a handful”.

Hmmm—where can I find the various glorious editions of Protestant Catechisms?

Does anyone besides our Anglican brothers publish such things?

They must—or they’d be a facade, right?

 

[Atemi]

Your quibble is not about “doctrinal unity.”

My “quibble,” as you put it, is about the apologetic that Catholics are unified.

I am sorry, but this is demonstrably false.

Even almost all the Catholics are now coming out and agreeing with me, telling me all about all the “tares” in the Catholic community. Of course, they come out agreeing with me as they attack me, but oh well.

The Church does have defined doctrine that is stable. We actually HAVE a body of doctrine.

So does every church, so that is irrelevant.

In any event, a Catechism is always unified with itself. It is actual people that must be unified if that is what some choose to boast about.

…

 

[Teflon93]

My “quibble,” as you put it, is about the apologetic that Catholics are unified.

I am sorry, but this is demonstrably false.

Even almost all the Catholics are now coming out and agreeing with me, telling me all about all the “tares” in the Catholic community. Of course, they come out agreeing with me as they attack me, but oh well.

So does every church, so that is irrelevant.

In any event, a Catechism is always unified with itself. It is actual people that must be unified if that is what some choose to boast about.

…

Even the Atomic Church of Atemi isn’t unified, if this thread is any indication.