The RCC facade

[GandalfTheWhite]

Irrelevant, Gandalf. Start your own thread if you like.

This thread is not about non-Catholic doctrines.

It is about the supposed unity among Catholics that does not exist in reality.

Stay on topic.

…

No, it is very much on topic. It is a response to your statement that: "Roman Catholics have no more unity than non-Catholics."

I am not going to ask these question in another thread because that would be quite pointless. As I said earlier, these questions CANNOT be answered and that was precisely my point my post. In other words the highlighted quote is meaningless.

Telling me that what I said is irrelevant, off topic can serve only one purpose - that is ignoring that what you said makes no sense at all.

As for your argument that there is not unity. You are simply twisting the facts to your liking. Your argument is simply based on the fact that people are sinners and not all are willing to give themselves completely to the truth. No one is disagreeing that there are Catholics who hold to some heretical ideas and who reject some of the Church’s authority. The point is that they are rejecting it. They are going against the Church and by that they are separating themselves from Her. Our unity is not based on arguing that everybody is faithful to the Magisterium. That would be quite radiculous. Our unity stands in clear teching of only ONE TRUTH. There is one God, one Church and one Truth. The Catholic Church teaches always only ONE Truth. All Catholics (in fact all people) MUST believe in these Truths. They are morally obligated to do so. All else only endangers their soul.

If you therefore are so unfortunate and enter a parish that teaching things that are heretical then this parish is separating itself from the ONE church (and thust for Christ) by teaching those heresies. What they say are not what the Church says and thus their teaching is valueless and of the devil. If you however speak to Catholics in real sense of the word then they will agree on everything what the Church teachies.

Now if you go around protestant communities you they will disagree on *almost *everything. This is of course obvious because they have no other authority other than themselves. They will say that it is Bible that is the authority but the Bible doesn’t interpret itself. The only unity you might find within protestantism is unity within their own communities (often made out of few dozen people only). However since they do not view their communities as the Church, mentioning this is pointless.

As I said, the truth is obvious and I simply CANNOT make myself to believe that people can be sincere when they say such things. It really is depressing.

O Holy Spirit, please open eyes of the blind and open ears of the deaf! Let them see the light and guide them towards it. Amen.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Hi Timmy,

I’m sure that you found parishes with people of different attitudes in them, but what you’re seeing here is people who have decided that they just can’t follow some of the more difficult moral rules. They still believe in most of catholicism but have made some exceptions for themselves because they just can’t do it. But you’d never hear a sermon in those parishes, for example, saying that it is OK to use artificial birth control. The priests and deacons still respect church teaching, but are just more open to accepting that not everyone is strong enough to follow church teaching.

The group you mentioned that ordains women priests is WAY out there and you won’t find any catholic parish with a female priest. That would be blatant rebellion and wouldn’t be tolerated.

I’ve quite often just picked a parish at random while travelling and I’ve never heard a sermon that was unorthodox in any way.

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith. Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice. The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

Considder how many catholics openly reject central church teaching on Christian essentials. How many gay rights rallies have practicing priests paticipating? There are organizations of practicing catholics for ordaining women. The majority of catholics use contraception or openly approve it in full unity with Rome. How many Catholics are members of Amnesty international, NOW, NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or other pro-Abortion groups? How many RC politicians continue to ensure the legality of abortion? None of these people are ever rained in or removed by the supposed authority of the RCC.

More personally I had become interested in the RCC because of more study of the early church. My wife had asked me to arrange a RC Priest to visit and explain their church to our family. I have spoken to three different catholic churches and found none are the same. Specifically, I recently had a long talk with a deacon who informed they would be happy to meet with me, but that I would probably not be interested in their church because of my more conservative church history (coming from evangelical churches) and their more “progressive” theology. I asked what that meant and was told that RC’s are accountable to their conscience as much as doctrine (they had no problem with contraception for instance).

With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?

 

[Pax]

Basically, there is only unity among a fraction of Catholics.

That is not impressive and does not jibe with the usual apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified.

…

And just what is the fraction that you refer to? Can you adequately quantify it? Likewise, if dissenters exist in some quantity, then please tell me when their numbers meet the threshold that determines whether the Catholic Church is no longer unified.

It seems to me that you are simply using an arbitrary standard. Afterall, we would have to say that even Jesus failed as the head of the Church in the midst of his disciples when it came to unity. Jesus gave his teachings and not all of the twelve believed everything he said. Judas apparently believed everything until it came to the discourse on the bread of life when he did not believe that Jesus would give us his flesh and blood as true food and true drink.[John 6:60-70]

By your standard there was no unity among the twelve because of Judas. Therefore, unity is merely a myth that Jesus prays for in John Chapter 17. Somehow, I just don’t think so.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I can’t help but think, given the repetative answers given by the Catholics in this thread, that the antagonists in this thread are ike elementary school kids in an arguement with other kids just answering “I know you are, but what am I” over and over and over again, with another one sitting in the corner with his fingers jammed in his ears say, “la la la la la la la…not listening”.

 

[Atemi]

And just what is the fraction that you refer to? Can you adequately quantify it?

No.

Nobody can, even Catholics when they propose it as a superior trait of Roman Catholicism.

We do know that it is definitely a minority, however.

Likewise, if dissenters exist in some quantity, then please tell me when their numbers meet the threshold that determines whether the Catholic Church is no longer unified.

Don’t know.

What is the threshold that determines when Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified?

It seems to me that you are simply using an arbitrary standard.

Actually, that is what I have been saying about the RC apologetic in this matter this whole thread.

Afterall, we would have to say that even Jesus failed as the head of the Church in the midst of his disciples when it came to unity. Jesus gave his teachings and not all of the twelve believed everything he said. Judas apparently believed everything until it came to the discourse on the bread of life when he did not believe that Jesus would give us his flesh and blood as true food and true drink.[John 6:60-70]

John 6 speaks nothing about Judas not believing Jesus would give us his flesh and blood as true food and true drink. I have no clue where you got that one from, but that is a different thread anyway.

By your standard there was no unity among the twelve because of Judas. Therefore, unity is merely a myth that Jesus prays for in John Chapter 17. Somehow, I just don’t think so.

And surely not 11/12 of all Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified in faith.

You forget that it is not us non-Catholics who are always boasting about doctrinal unity and the superiority of our faith because of that.

What constitutes true unity among the faithful is a different thread altogether, but if nodding in the way of a Catechism is what “unity” is, then Roman Catholicism doesn’t even have that.

…

 

[SFLCatholic]

No. I am presupposing that when RC apologists say that Catholics are doctrinally or morally unified, Catholics actually are.

Reality tells a very different tale, my friend.

Nonsense. I do no such thing.

By telling the people that don’t know any better that Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified, when they are not, invalidates the truth.

…

You are making some big unjustified statements. Back them up with something other than your bigoted opinion.

Show me the reality you are talking about.

But again, you are pre-supposing that people are perfect. Argue your point without this pre-suppostion.

The purpose of doctrine is to guide people, sinners, towards God. That is what Jesus left us with. His example, His sacraments, His exhoration to “Do this in Remembrance of Me”, His example to help the sinner, etc.

The Catholic Church is the beautiful and ultimate expression of Jesus’ teachings. We are His legacy. We are also His sinners. And we are unified in His Church.

By following His teachings and living His sacraments, we are morally and doctrinally unified. That has not changed. But following it doesn’t mean we have each attained perfection either. Nor does that lack of perfection mean we are any less morally unified.

Reading your posts reminds me of John 8:7, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Are you so without sin Atemi that you should be casting dispersions at our personal failures to follow doctrine?

In your world, your reality, it seems there are no sinners so doctrine is irrelevant. I guess its because people have atttained perfection by the one time singular act of being saved?

You invalidate Jesus with your argument. And blaspheme His bride, the Catholic Church with your unfounded assertions.

Remember, Jesus came here for the sinner. He came here to complete us in Him. He gave us the doctrine to follow. And He never asked us to be perfect, only that we try.

What experience brought you to such a hateful conclusion about the One True Faith?

 

[SFLCatholic]

I can go to the local non-denominational church down the street - they can teach a verse out of the Bible and come to one conclusion…then go to the local baptist church in the neighborhood - and they teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse. Can they reconcile these two different teachings? I honestly doubt it.

Case in point: They can’t come to an agreement on how many raptures there are going to be.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

Nobody can, even Catholics when they propose it as a superior trait of Roman Catholicism. We do know that it is definitely a minority, however.

Who’s ‘we’? What is a ‘minority’ of an unknown number? And how exactly do you know what this ‘minority’ is? Magic?

Atemi:

Don’t know. What is the threshold that determines when Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified?

One. Since you made the claim against Catholic unity it is your responsibility to define your threshold now.
not sure who posted this:

It seems to me that you are simply using an arbitrary standard.

Atemi:

Actually, that is what I have been saying about the RC apologetic in this matter this whole thread.

But you haven’t been providing any evidence in the whole thread.

Atemi:

And surely not 11/12 of all Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified in faith.

I wonder about your math, guy.

Atemi:

You forget that it is not us non-Catholics who are always boasting about doctrinal unity and the superiority of our faith because of that.

Rather you are always building strawmen about Catholic disunity. Occasionally we get some enterprising soul who argues for Protestant unity. That’s a hekuvva lot of fun when that happens.

Atemi:

What constitutes true unity among the faithful is a different thread altogether

Nope. It is central to your claims.

Atemi:

but if nodding in the way of a Catechism is what “unity” is, then Roman Catholicism doesn’t even have that.

You have no evidence. I guess you just want us to believe you because it is you talking and folks usually jump when you speak? Is that true? Folks jump when you speak?

:bounce:

People never ask you for any evidence for your opinions?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

“I know you are, but what am I” over and over and over again, with another one sitting in the corner with his fingers jammed in his ears say, “la la la la la la la…not listening”.

Monsieur Lafrance forges ahead of the pack to win the Zinger Prize! What sometimes happens – and this is so exciting – is that there is a threshold when someone gets psyched out and actually starts posting really cogent reference and reason and then other folks join in and the guys going la la la la la just keeping on going la la la la la but no one’s listening. I love when that happens. Don’t you just love when that happens?

:angel1:

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Case in point: They can’t come to an agreement on how many raptures there are going to be.

Can we just tell them then?

 

[SFLCatholic]

Irrelevant, Gandalf. Start your own thread if you like.

This thread is not about non-Catholic doctrines.

It is about the supposed unity among Catholics that does not exist in reality.

Stay on topic.

…

Thats not fair of you Atemi. Gandalf is using the same argument structure that you use. Proving a positive through a negative.

Except that Gandalf actually has an argument. You have failed to clearly enunciate yours.

 

[SFLCatholic]

That is not impressive and does not jibe with the usual apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified.
…

You keep mentioning this but have not provided any proof yet. Please post references.

 

[SFLCatholic]

I am sorry, but this is demonstrably false.

How? Where’s your evidence?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

Even almost all the Catholics are now coming out and agreeing with me, telling me all about all the “tares” in the Catholic community. Of course, they come out agreeing with me as they attack me, but oh well.

Uh-huh.
not sure who posted this:

The Church does have defined doctrine that is stable. We actually HAVE a body of doctrine.

Atemi:

So does every church, so that is irrelevant.

Oooooooh! :bigyikes: Please provide us with an example of how your churches have a body of doctrine – ‘a’ meaning ONE.

Atemi:

In any event, a Catechism is always unified with itself.

Thank you. We have agreement folks!

Atemi:

It is actual people that must be unified if that is what some choose to boast about.

That would be a body of people, not a body of doctrine. Which one do you want to discuss? Please do not confuse the two, OK?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

It depends on the thread and the authors or hosts. If I am speaking to a Traditionalist, I am talking about his Catholic Church, when I speak to an Eastern Orthodox, I am talking about his Catholic Church, etc…

Let me know what happens when you talk to a Muslim about his Catholic Church.

 

[Bishopite]

In my local church? Yes we practice church discipline (excommunication)
Prots in general? No we don’t claim it

Based on 1 Tim 3:15, how can your local church discipline someone when the other local church down the street accepts there behavior?

When I was a Baptist, one of the women in our adult Bible study group had an affair when she was pregnant with her husbands baby. The man she was having an affair with was in Protestant seminary and had three children of his own. When the leaders of my Baptist church confronted her about her sin, she simply told them that she was “once saved always saved” and it didn’t matter what she did nor what they said nor thought! She left to a church that didn’t care what she did.
My point here is, which “church” within Protestantism can validly speak from scripture—from truth about when to discipline or excommunicate (if you will) its members when so many of them disagree?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

Basically, there is only unity among a fraction of Catholics. That is not impressive and does not jibe with the usual apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified.

It’s not impressive because you made it up. The ‘usual’ apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified would be the one you are going to tell us about next?

:bounce:

Atemi:

No.

No what?

Atemi:

Yet not one Catholic will ever give the same explanation for differing Protestants…when they are more than willing to excuse their own differences in such a fashion.

And why do you think this is? Do you think it is has anything to do with the lack of doctrinal unity on your side of the Tiber? Could be, eh? What a concept!

Atemi:

It seems that Catholics get a pass (“tares”) for all their disunity, but non-Catholics don’t.

That is so not true. We are perfectly aware that you have tares.

Atemi:

How can us non-Catholics take such an arbitrary and biased position seriously?

You tell us. You’re the one who thought this one up.

 

[po18guy]

My “quibble,” as you put it, is about the apologetic that Catholics are unified.

I am sorry, but this is demonstrably false.

Even almost all the Catholics are now coming out and agreeing with me, telling me all about all the “tares” in the Catholic community. Of course, they come out agreeing with me as they attack me, but oh well.

So does every church, so that is irrelevant.

In any event, a Catechism is always unified with itself. It is actual people that must be unified if that is what some choose to boast about.

…

I, for one, certainly hope that you are not Christian! Just look at those twelve apostles! No unity on faith issues. No unity on which was the greatest. No unity on who would sit at Christ’s right hand in heaven. No unity on Christ’s prediction of the Passion. No unity on the Resurrection. No unity on whether or not Christ had risen. One of them, on his own, sold Christ out before committing suicide. The appointed leader denied Christ three times before running off to hide! No unity at all. Now, those Baal worshippers, they were unified. Yeah, Christians are real losers alright.

Too bad Luther wasn’t one of the twelve. He was really into unity, right?

 

[Atemi]

I can go to the local non-denominational church down the street - they can teach a verse out of the Bible and come to one conclusion…then go to the local baptist church in the neighborhood - and they teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse. Can they reconcile these two different teachings? I honestly doubt it.

And I can go to a modernist Catholic Church down the street and they can teach a verse out of the Bible and come to one conclucion…then go to the local Traditionalist Catholic Church in the neighborhood - and they teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse…and then I try the EO Catholic Church in the next town and they then teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse.

Can they all reconcile these three different teachings? I honestly doubt it.

“Wait a second” screams the RC apologist “you are talking about three totally different churches. That’s not fair!”

Hello?

…

 

[Atemi]

No, it is very much on topic. It is a response to your statement that: "Roman Catholics have no more unity than non-Catholics."

Which is true, if not more so since there are so many of you (one billion?).

I am not going to ask these question in another thread because that would be quite pointless. As I said earlier, these questions CANNOT be answered and that was precisely my point my post.

But this thread is not about Protestant disunity but Catholic disunity. If you want to talk about the unity of non-Catholic Christians start another thread. No use hijacking this one.

As for your argument that there is not unity. You are simply twisting the facts to your liking.

The facts are that a majority of Catholics do not believe in every doctrinal and moral teaching of your church. Only when I get on internet forums do all the Catholics I know deny this with every fiber of their being.

Off the web, where people are not trying to convert or paint the prettiest picture, Catholics understand and recognize this reality and talk about it freely, if not sadly.

Only on the internet do some throw up their shoulders and shout “What disunity!?”…as they hide the majority of a billion Catholics behind their back. “Don’t mind them…they ain’t Catholic anyway.”

Sigh…

Our unity is not based on arguing that everybody is faithful to the Magisterium.

Or even a majority.

Trying to convince non-Catholics that Catholics are more unified than the church from where they come is silly. There are fewer more splintered Christians than Catholics.

Our unity stands in clear teching of only ONE TRUTH.

No.

Unity comes when real people are in harmony with each other on what they believe…at least that’s what Catholics tell me all the time.

Bragging that you have a Catechism (which arrived very late in history, by the way) says not one iota about the doctrinal unity of actual Catholics.

Now if you go around protestant communities you they will disagree on *almost *everything.

Notice you compare one community (the modernist RCC) with multiple other communities.

You compare one orange with 15 apples and then complain that the apples are apples.

But even within that one orange, you still are stuck with about 1 billion Catholics who truly do disagree on almost everything.

To conveniently ignore that truth, you just merely remove all those that disagree with you from the equation. We cannot take that kind of math seriously.

Holy Spirit, please open eyes of the blind and open ears of the deaf! Let them see the light and guide them towards it.

Amen!

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