The RCC facade

[Bishopite]

[Atemi;2663534]And I can go to a modernist Catholic Church down the street and they can teach a verse out of the Bible and come to one conclucion…then go to the local Traditionalist Catholic Church in the neighborhood - and they teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse…and then I try the EO Catholic Church in the next town and they then teach a completely different doctrine from the same verse.

Can they all reconcile these three different teachings? I honestly doubt it.

First of all what we have is a Shepard who can make that final and declaritive proclomation. And our Catholic unity is in the Bishop of Rome and in dogmas.

If we aren’t within that authority of the Pope, then we are outside of the Catholic church to some degree.
What you are falsely assuming here is that Catholicism has a dogmatic proclomation on every verse in the Bible; this is NOT true. If either of the two groups contradict any part of what the Catholic Magisterium has dogmatized then that Catholic group is acting against the official teaching of the church and any indivduals who freely act against what the church has authoritatively proclaimed are what’s known as latae sententia or self-excommunicated. When Cathollics dissagree with a particular verse, therein lies the freedom we have as Catholics to dissagree within certain parameters.
If the scriptural verse in dispute is about something the Magisterium has authoritatively defined then one or both of the groups could be in error. But our unity is in the Papacy. Not having a Pope is something all non-Catholics have in common unity for sure.

“Wait a second” screams the RC apologist “you are talking about three totally different churches. That’s not fair!”

Different local city-churches or parishes, or buildings but one church as the Nicean and Apostles creed affirm…one Holy Catholic and Apostolic church all unified under the Bishop or Rome.

 

[RobHom]

I can’t help but think, given the repetative answers given by the Catholics in this thread, that the antagonists in this thread are ike elementary school kids in an arguement with other kids just answering “I know you are, but what am I” over and over and over again, with another one sitting in the corner with his fingers jammed in his ears say, “la la la la la la la…not listening”.

How very true… Sad isn’t it.

But whats most pathetic and uncompelling is that the antagonist has done nothing more than espouse his opinion without a shred of proof, yet wants us all to believe that protestants are more closely unified. That is something very far from the truth.

 

[RobHom]

My “quibble,” as you put it, is about the apologetic that Catholics are unified.

I am sorry, but this is demonstrably false.

Even almost all the Catholics are now coming out and agreeing with me, telling me all about all the “tares” in the Catholic community. Of course, they come out agreeing with me as they attack me, but oh well.


So does every church, so that is irrelevant.

In any event, a Catechism is always unified with itself. It is actual people that must be unified if that is what some choose to boast about.

…

 

[Jon_S]

I must have gone to a million (I’m exaggerating obviously) different churches before coming home to Catholicism, and the only thing that unifies all non-Catholic Christians (besides God, of course) is their “dislike” of the Papacy.

So the same Pope unifies both sides.

 

[SFLCatholic]

Which is true, if not more so since there are so many of you (one billion?).

But this thread is not about Protestant disunity but Catholic disunity. If you want to talk about the unity of non-Catholic Christians start another thread. No use hijacking this one.

The facts are that a majority of Catholics do not believe in every doctrinal and moral teaching of your church. Only when I get on internet forums do all the Catholics I know deny this with every fiber of their being.

Off the web, where people are not trying to convert or paint the prettiest picture, Catholics understand and recognize this reality and talk about it freely, if not sadly.

Only on the internet do some throw up their shoulders and shout “What disunity!?”…as they hide the majority of a billion Catholics behind their back. “Don’t mind them…they ain’t Catholic anyway.”

Sigh…

Or even a majority.

Trying to convince non-Catholics that Catholics are more unified than the church from where they come is silly. There are fewer more splintered Christians than Catholics.

No.

Unity comes when real people are in harmony with each other on what they believe…at least that’s what Catholics tell me all the time.

Bragging that you have a Catechism (which arrived very late in history, by the way) says not one iota about the doctrinal unity of actual Catholics.

Notice you compare one community (the modernist RCC) with multiple other communities.

You compare one orange with 15 apples and then complain that the apples are apples.

But even within that one orange, you still are stuck with about 1 billion Catholics who truly do disagree on almost everything.

To conveniently ignore that truth, you just merely remove all those that disagree with you from the equation. We cannot take that kind of math seriously.

Amen!

…

Show some proof. Your unsubstantiated assertions are getting old.

 

[SFLCatholic]

Here’s the Unified teaching for today. You might want to read this closely Atemi.

Reading 1
1 Thes 4:9-11

Brothers and sisters:
On the subject of fraternal charity
you have no need for anyone to write you,
for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another.
Indeed, you do this for all the brothers throughout Macedonia.
Nevertheless we urge you, brothers and sisters, to progress even more,
and to aspire to live a tranquil life,
to mind your own affairs,
and to work with your own hands,
as we instructed you.

usccb.org/nab/090107.shtml

The beautiful thing about the RCC is that on any day, any Catholic, morally perfect or not, can get the exact same teaching. And the purpose of teaching is to attain perfection. Practice makes perfect.

Do non-C’s do this? Do non-C’s have this universal unity of mind and spirit?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Too bad Luther wasn’t one of the twelve. He was really into unity, right?

Yeah, the unity of forcible conversions, although his teachings varied from morning to noon. Btw how about the unity of scripture among Reformers: that really gives one pause, eh? For those of you who are wondering how Atemi’s friends swung unity of scripture, read on…

The Missing Parts of the King James Bible

Who interprets tradition: from a curious Evangelical (look at the end at posts 214 to 239.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Show some proof. Your unsubstantiated assertions are getting old.

• jams his fingers in his ears and say, “La la la la la not listening”*

 

[Ani_Ibi]

• jams his fingers in his ears and say, “La la la la la not listening”*

I agree with “la la” but how can you expect us to sit still for “la la la”? And as for “la la la la la”: that’s just plain wrong, dude.

 

[Atemi]

Yeah, the unity of forcible conversions, although his teachings varied from morning to noon. Btw how about the unity of scripture among Reformers: that really gives one pause, eh? For those of you who are wondering how Atemi’s friends swung unity of scripture, read on…

The Missing Parts of the King James Bible

Who interprets tradition: from a curious Evangelical (look at the end at posts 214 to 239.

Constantly hiding Catholic disunity by mentioning non-Catholic disunity is not making a stronger case for you, Ani.

…

 

[Atemi]

Here’s the Unified teaching for today. You might want to read this closely Atemi.

We are not talking about unified teaching (whatever that is).

This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper.

…

 

[Pax]

Unity is not defined by rebels and dissenters. They separate themselves from the truth and unity of what we speak.

We know them because John tells us how to recognize them. He does this in 1 Jn 2:19 when he says:

“They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us: but by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us.”

There is but one Magesterium and there is but one Pope that lead the Church of Christ. The unity of teaching and doctrine is easily found when one simply looks to the official teachings of the Church. Those that reject the official teachings “have gone out from us” and are no longer with us.

You can spin rebellion, sin, and cafeteria attitudes anyway you want, but you cannot overcome the facts. We have unity of doctrine and it goes all the way back to Jesus. No one else can make that claim.

 

[Janet_S]

Contrary to what you claim, dissenting views in Catholicism are disciplined. These days, this is done in a pretty restrained way. but it is done. You complain because it isn’t totally efficient–but others complain that the Church is too centralized and oppressive. The poor Catholics can’t please everybody!

Edwin

An example of dissenting views being disciplined can be found here:

catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=8237
“Vatican supports excommunication of Call to Action group”

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, Prefect of the Vatican’s Congregation for Bishops has sent a letter supporting Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz’s decision to excommunicate members of the dissonant group Call to Action in the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska. Cardinal Re affirmed that, in the judgment of the Holy See, belonging to or supporting Call to Action is “irreconcilable with a coherent living of the Catholic Faith,” due to some of their anti-Catholic activities and stances.

And I agree with Edwin–if we discipline people we are too strict; if we don’t, we’re too permissive. We never be able to please everyone (and, actually we don’t try to.)

 

[Mannyfit75]

Constantly hiding Catholic disunity by mentioning non-Catholic disunity is not making a stronger case for you, Ani.

…

No one is hiding this. We Catholics know there are so-called caferia Catholics who do not practice their faith. The only difference is that none of these Catholics who disagree with the teaching authority of the Catholic do not have Magisterial authority.

The Church does and the Church defined doctrines and make them very clear.

A Catholic who goes to Mass and recite the Nicene Creed, but doesn’t believe abortion is a sin is lying to himself.

There is a line of the Nicene Creed that states, “We believe in One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.”

If you do believe then you ought to accept that abortion is wrong, that use of contraception is sin and so forth.

These Catholics who lukewarm of the heart are those who seeds who hear the word of God, for while they accept it, but the world lure them away, and they depart from the truth.

The Catholic Church’s Magisterial Teachings have one concrete Doctrine.

When Protestants elders set a meeting to define doctrine in their Church, they have to come to an agreement. Suppose the elders vote to put infant baptism in their church, and the other doesn’t, the one who disagree will leave and form his own Church (a common practice that Martin Luther practice).

There is no authority in Protestantism.

In current events, many Protestant Churches are now debating the issue of gay ministers. The Epsicopal Church have nominated a gay priest as a possible bishop. The Lutheran is also considering it.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…Suppose the elders vote to put infant baptism in their church, and the other doesn’t, the one who disagree will leave and form his own Church (a common practice that Martin Luther practice)…

More on the common practice of Martin Luther.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

…This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper…

The OP, after a lot of words, asks “With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?”

Well what defines a denomination? If people split off and form another group, then one is obliged to ask on what basis.

If that basis is doctrine, then the new group is a new denomination. If that basis is not doctrine, then the new group is simply a new Catholic community.

There are zero groups of people within the Catholic Church who can split off and form a group separate from the Church under new doctrine while still remaining Catholic. Any new groups organized under new doctrines are no longer Catholic.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Constantly hiding Catholic disunity by mentioning non-Catholic disunity is not making a stronger case for you, Ani…

This is my case:

• There is no doctrinal disunity under Catholicism.
• Therefore I am hiding nothing.
• To claim that there is doctrinal disunity under Catholicism serves as a smokescreen to cover the doctrinal disunity of Protestantism.
• To hide the doctrinal disunity of Protestant from people is to rob them of a fair degree of their freedom of choice.
• I don’t need to make a stronger case than the one I have made.

 

[Nordar]

How very true… Sad isn’t it.

But whats most pathetic and uncompelling is that the antagonist has done nothing more than espouse his opinion without a shred of proof, yet wants us all to believe that protestants are more closely unified. That is something very far from the truth.

That’s what he’s trying to say? Because quite frrankly I do not have a clue what he is trying to say. He makes absoletely no sense, he just keeps going around and around in circles. I can understand what my grandchildren are trying to say betrter than this guy!

 

[Nordar]

This is my case:

• There is no doctrinal disunity under Catholicism.
• Therefore I am hiding nothing.
• To claim that there is doctrinal disunity under Catholicism serves as a smokescreen to cover the doctrinal disunity of Protestantism.
• To hide the doctrinal disunity of Protestant from people is to rob them of a fair degree of their freedom of choice.
• I don’t need to make a stronger case than the one I have made.

But the merry go round will start up again illogically claiming " It is not Doctrinal disunity, it is the millions of Catholics who live by their own Doctrine" Although were these millions of Catholics are and how he came up with that number is anyones guess.

 

[Janet_S]

Disunity among Catholics comes about from disobedience when one rejects the divine authority of the Magisterium.

The Catholic Church is clear about what she teaches. I can guarantee, all the Catholics participating on this thread agree with each other about the issues of women priests, artificial contraception, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the divinity of Jesus, the efficacy of the Sacraments, etc. None of us have met each other (as far as I know.) How is it that we all came to agree on and believe the same things? We all had the same teacher–the Church which speaks with an undivided, authoritative voice.

On the other hand, disunity among Protestants comes about from obedience when one accepts the Protestant belief that there is no divine, infallible authority (outside the Bible) present in the world today.

The difference? Catholics>obedience>unity.
Protestants>obedience>disunity

The only time there is disunity in Catholicism is when individual Catholics begin thinking like Protestants and ignore the divine authority of the Church.