The re-election of Obama - Another sour fruit of Vatican II?

[Gorgias]

I saw a news report, which said that, while Hispanic people are generally pro-life and pro-traditional marriage, 71% of Hispanics voted for Obama. Obviously the Church failed to reach this group.

Hmm. I would think that Hispanics in this country would be likely to vote Democratic based on the immigration issue. Who woulda thunk it that it was really a poor catechesis issue?!? :whacky:

 

[Armor_of_Light]

Zaland, you mention that its unfortunate that Obama won, but lets be tuthful. Romney was not a saint, nor was he a savior. This man was out to defend the rich, and no one can deny that, It’s funny now that i write that b/c yesterday in mass, the last reading was “were the lady only gave two coins, while the rich gave alot”. Idk if anybody remembers that, but then Jesus says,“That lady will be going to heaven b/c although she’s poor, she gave those 2 coins from the bottom of her heart”.
Another thing, I’m hispanic, with alot of family and friends who are here illegally. Yet the republican party who supposedly is “God fearing”, and talks about God all the time, wants these hard qorking ppl, deported back. Now the bible says that God loves each of us, for who we are, Romney and Ryan, as well as the whole Republican Party don’t have that attitude. Here ppl like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O’Reilly. They always talk about how God is letting this country go into ruins, but their stance is that of a hypocrite. I say get your facts straight before you start condemning Obama’s victory, b/c had Romney won, this country would of favored the rich like in George W. Bush’s presidency

You have a couple of interesting points here…regarding the illegal immigrant poulation.

Let’s face it (and I know this is going to rub some people the wrong way):
Why couldn’t we just rubber stamp the illegal immigrants and be done with it? Its nice to take the correct path to citizenship, but who is it hurting if America just decides to grant citizenship to the ‘non criminal’ illegals without a lot of fuss? I’m not suggesting forever throwing our doors open, but maybe for a brief window. Seems like a Christian thing to do.

 

[chero23]

Another thing, let’s remember that both VP Biden and Paul Ryan are Catholics. On the VP debate they were asked, " How does your faith as Catholic, help you with the decisions that you make"? Idk if anyone saw the debate, and both men said they support abortion in circumstances like rape and if the mother’s life was in danger. Both men said the same thing. I think Zeland this is were your post was going when you put the re-election of Obama.
Yes we can also argue that a marriage is just between a man and a women, which i agree. The candidates put forward their beliefs and what they will do if elected. Now were humans we cannot agree with somebody 100%. Like my last post said, you question Obama’s victory and say its wrong, b/c he’s pro abortion and pro gay marriage. Ok that’s a fair argument, but what about the repbublicans stance?
If you look at exit polls, although Hispanics don’t agree on abortion and gay marriages b/c thats what our Catholic Church stands for, we also know that we must take care of our family. Which you well know republicans don’t. Take a look around the country and some of the most anti-hispanic laws in the country are in states were Republican legislation has been passed.

 

[FaustinaJulia]

As a newcomer to the Faith, I have seen one thing which it seems no one speaks of regarding the silent pulpit issue…

The ban on political speech or support from a tax free nonprofit organization.

This is a main reason for the lack of guidance from the pulpit and I dare say also from teachers of catechism. It has had a horrible chilling effect on getting valid church belief and teachings across to church members and potential converts. And we just accept it as if it has always been that way and it has not. If I remember correctly, this has only been the case since the Lyndon Johnson presidency days and it fits in so neatly with other things. The origin of the Prayer to St. Michael from Pope Leo XIII inspired by hearing the devil getting a century to try the faith of the Church should not be forgotten either.

The responsibility is on ALL factions within the Church, neither laity, clergy or religious either one are all to blame or all blameless in the debacle. In fighting each other however, we lose sight of the true enemy and trust me when I say that HE is most certainly delighted at the outcome of this past century and even at the infighting you can see hints of even in this forum. Let’s shut that laughter down.

In the name of our Precious Lord, Jesus Christ
Julia

 

[coachdennis]

coachdennis;10009594:

So you bear no responsibilitty at all? I thought the command to evangelize to all nations was the charge to ALL believers.

Let me put it another way: If the building you worked in was on fire, and your boss chose to ignore the smoke and fire alarms, you don’t have any responsibility to try and save yourself and others around you? Or would say, well my boss will negate my attempts?

I know, a silly example, but we can challenge authority to speak up AND realize our responsibilities. It is not either/or.

HOWEVER, then I’m told that a person can vote for him as long as he is not voting for abortion etc. That to me is cutting the baloney very thin.

Would you like to comment on that? How is the laity suppose to evangelize when wrong, apparently, isn’t always wrong???

First, who is telling you that? That would be my first question. And how was it communicated to you – one on one or from the pulpit and in what context?

Second,I’m not sure what “a person can vote for him as long as he is not voting for abortion” means so I can’t speak to that

Third, you, like most people in this electorate had to make many complicated courses. As someone mentioned earlier both Biden and Ryan shared a similar vew on abortion despite what their party platforms stated.

Fourth, how would you handle the fact that in my state in the senatorial race, both candidates promoted the fact they were pro-choice and promised never to take away a woman’s right to contraception?

 

[flutigirl]

My thoughts are not of all that I am seeing in this forum. Just to let you know that my mother married a Mormon, which was also a high priest in the church. My stepdad ( the Mormon Priest) was very persistent and my mother joined as well. After his death I did convince my mother to become Catholic as I am. I will tell all of you that Mormon’s do not believe that Jesus Christ is Divine ( big issue in my mind) and they believed that he was just a great prophet born from Mary not immaculate but natural (sexually). This election was a big struggle for me and I will tell you many of my catholic friends as well. Obama on the other hand is Christian and if you look up his religion they do believe in the trinity, unlike the Mormons. I believed that voting for the Mormon was denying who Christ really is and there was no way I was going there, as my catholic friends as well. I spoke to several Priests in the Catholic Church and their reply to me was we have to look at the lessor of the evils. Big issue in my mind as well, as the lessor of the evils would be voting for someone who believed in my beloved Jesus Christ instead of someone who didn’t, and trusting that because I didn’t deny Jesus he would prevail. Not everyone who voted for the Mormon knows about their beliefs of Jesus Christ, I thank my mother and step dad for giving me the knowledge to know the difference.

 

[aicirt]

aicirt;10009638:

First, who is telling you that? That would be my first question. And how was it communicated to you – one on one or from the pulpit and in what context?

Second,I’m not sure what “a person can vote for him as long as he is not voting for abortion” means so I can’t speak to that

Third, you, like most people in this electorate had to make many complicated courses. As someone mentioned earlier both Biden and Ryan shared a similar vew on abortion despite what their party platforms stated.

Fourth, how would you handle the fact that in my state in the senatorial race, both candidates promoted the fact they were pro-choice and promised never to take away a woman’s right to contraception?

I would not vote for someone who is against life…no abortion, no euthansia. Anyone who wants contraceptives can pay for them. Don’t ask the taxpayer to pay. Take responsiblity for yourself.

Who said it? I think it was said by George Weigle who did an interview with Raymond Arroyo this past week on EWTN. What the sentence meant was YOU can vote for Obama as long as you are not voting for his promotion of abortion. You might have other reasons to vote for him such as his health care policy. What did you think it meant?

Do you think Ryan is promoting the culture of death? If so, why would the Church promote his election??? Biden? You see him as a Catholic? Really?

 

[aicirt]

My thoughts are not of all that I am seeing in this forum. Just to let you know that my mother married a Mormon, which was also a high priest in the church. My stepdad ( the Mormon Priest) was very persistent and my mother joined as well. After his death I did convince my mother to become Catholic as I am. I will tell all of you that Mormon’s do not believe that Jesus Christ is Divine ( big issue in my mind) and they believed that he was just a great prophet born from Mary not immaculate but natural (sexually). This election was a big struggle for me and I will tell you many of my catholic friends as well. Obama on the other hand is Christian and if you look up his religion they do believe in the trinity, unlike the Mormons. I believed that voting for the Mormon was denying who Christ really is and there was no way I was going there, as my catholic friends as well. I spoke to several Priests in the Catholic Church and their reply to me was we have to look at the lessor of the evils. Big issue in my mind as well, as the lessor of the evils would be voting for someone who believed in my beloved Jesus Christ instead of someone who didn’t, and trusting that because I didn’t deny Jesus he would prevail. Not everyone who voted for the Mormon knows about their beliefs of Jesus Christ, I thank my mother and step dad for giving me the knowledge to know the difference.

Father Pacwa on EWTN discussed Obama’s church recently. He just gave the highlights of it. One was the church’s baptism can use various words…not the Scriputre of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This invalidates its baptism. If it uses the female, it negates the Trinity. There’s no female in the Trinity. If you change the Trinity, you change Christ. So that Church is out there and not in the main.

Mormons…yes, we’re becoming aware that God supposedly has a wife who remains nameless. That Satan and Christ are brothers, That there is an incestous element to God having relations with Mary.

 

[coachdennis]

coachdennis;10010209:

I would not vote for someone who is against life…no abortion, no euthansia. Anyone who wants contraceptives can pay for them. Don’t ask the taxpayer to pay. Take responsiblity for yourself.

Who said it? I think it was said by George Weigle who did an interview with Raymond Arroyo this past week on EWTN. What the sentence meant was YOU can vote for Obama as long as you are not voting for his promotion of abortion. You might have other reasons to vote for him such as his health care policy. What did you think it meant?

Do you think Ryan is promoting the culture of death? If so, why would the Church promote his election??? Biden? You see him as a Catholic? Really?

I am not in position to judge Biden. That is between him, his priest, and God. He identified himself as Catholic in answeringt he question at teh debate.

To use your quote as a litmus test," I would not vote for someone who is against life…no abortion, no euthansia", then one could make the case that Ryan and his exceptions are promoting or at the very least, making a wink towards a culture of death.

I do not know who George Weigle is, but if he is a layperson than his opinion should be taken as that, opinion.

 

[SuperLuigi]

=chero23;10009779]Zaland, you mention that its unfortunate that Obama won, but lets be tuthful. Romney was not a saint, nor was he a savior. This man was out to defend the rich, and no one can deny that,

I do deny that because he’s against crony capitalism. Obama and the democrat Congress (and even Bush) bailed out Detroit and Wall Street.

But I guess they get a free pass, huh?

And who was it that went to all those Hollywood fundraisers?

It’s funny now that i write that b/c yesterday in mass, the last reading was “were the lady only gave two coins, while the rich gave alot”. Idk if anybody remembers that, but then Jesus says,“That lady will be going to heaven b/c although she’s poor, she gave those 2 coins from the bottom of her heart”.

So did the lady and the others give freely, or did Ceaser tax them to “help the poor” and then deposit the money himself?

Another thing, I’m hispanic, with alot of family and friends who are here illegally. Yet the republican party who supposedly is “God fearing”, and talks about God all the time, wants these hard qorking ppl, deported back. Now

That’s a left-wing scare tactic. Even Ann Coulter isn’t talking about deporting people anymore (thank goodness for that).

The republicans have been arrogant about the immigration issue in the past because the party is loaded with Protestants who see their churches in decline and the Catholic faith–as well as Islam and Mormonism—increasing.

But it’s nothing we are doing to them, it’s the fact that the whites are committing cultural suicide and high crime rates keep the Black population fairly constant. Meanwhile, their leaders are arguing over so-called “gay marriage” because it isn’t specifically addressed in the Bible.

What a headache that all must be!

You’re not the only one here who isn’t 100% white on here, and I don’t know why you even mentioned it but it is foolhardy if you or anyone else think the democrats care about you because you are X, Y or Z.

Why don’t you ask Native Americans or African-Americans what big progressive government did for them?

They only want your vote because the wannabe liberal elites do not have kids. They want to enjoy all the perks of living in an industrialized country while you and other minorities and immigrants work at Mickey Dees or tend bar for them after a global warming or pro-“gay marriage” summit.

W. Europe and Japan have the exact same problem.

The republicans are more in favor of legal immigration, but it’s also worth noting that the country needs the labor force, especially in agriculture in the Heartland. I don’t think your family should be deported, especially if they’ve worked hard and have committed no crimes.** It’s just stupid to send people home who are helping the economy to a place that they won’t want to be and may be oppressed in .
**
Marco Rubio’s plan sounds good for immigration.

the bible says that God loves each of us, for who we are,

That is exactly right.

Romney and Ryan, as well as the whole Republican Party don’t have that attitude. Here ppl like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O’Reilly.

Bill O’Reilly is an independent and his plan for illegal immigration was to give everyone here illegally a J-1 visa. That means you can stay.

They always talk about how God is letting this country go into ruins, but their stance is that of a hypocrite. I say get your facts straight before you start condemning Obama’s victory, b/c had Romney won, this country would of favored the rich like in George W. Bush’s presidency

Ever gotten a job from a poor person? Do those in your family who work hard, are they working for a poor person?

Everyone benefits from a rising tide. We saw it in 1920 under Calvin Coolidge and in the 1980s under Reagen.

Every time government goes after the rich they always find tax shelters, don’t invest or leave, in which case the government gets nothing and can’t help you and you’re still out of a job.

Pay attention to what happens over the next few years. Liberalism doesn’t work.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Third, you, like most people in this electorate had to make many complicated courses. As someone mentioned earlier both Biden and Ryan shared a similar vew on abortion despite what their party platforms stated.

People always like to make things complicated when their favorite subsidy is on the line.

Fourth, how would you handle the fact that in my state in the senatorial race, both candidates promoted the fact they were pro-choice and promised never to take away a woman’s right to contraception?

Determine their positions on the non-negoitiables and vote for the one who you think will do the least damage.

If it’s R vs D, I’d go with R in this climate because there’s slight hope the R would be convinced by party leadership.

You could also write in someone you knew who was sound on the five non-negotiables.

 

[aicirt]

aicirt;10010991:

I am not in position to judge Biden. That is between him, his priest, and God. He identified himself as Catholic in answeringt he question at teh debate.

To use your quote as a litmus test," I would not vote for someone who is against life…no abortion, no euthansia", then one could

make the case that Ryan and his exceptions are promoting or at the very least, making a wink towards a culture of death.

I do not know who George Weigle is, but if he is a layperson than his opinion should be taken as that, opinion.

Oh please…live dangerously and judge him. He’s a hypocrite ditto for Peloski and Sybilius. GET OFF THE FENCE.

Look Weigle up.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Hmm. I would think that Hispanics in this country would be likely to vote Democratic based on the immigration issue. Who woulda thunk it that it was really a poor catechesis issue?!? :whacky:

The main issues in this election were the economy and entitlements. The EE factors.

People talk about the Hispanic and single woman vote a lot, but again, how does that explain rural counties across the upper Midwest going to Obama?

Since the GOP can’t get the northern white vote even with this economy, reaching out to those folks wouldn’t hurt, but overall, let’s keep the message for all American conservatives no matter who they are.

 

[Catherine_S]

Zaland, you mention that its unfortunate that Obama won, but lets be tuthful. Romney was not a saint, nor was he a savior. This man was out to defend the rich, and no one can deny that, It’s funny now that i write that b/c yesterday in mass, the last reading was “were the lady only gave two coins, while the rich gave alot”. Idk if anybody remembers that, but then Jesus says,“That lady will be going to heaven b/c although she’s poor, she gave those 2 coins from the bottom of her heart”.
Another thing, I’m hispanic, with alot of family and friends who are here illegally. Yet the republican party who supposedly is “God fearing”, and talks about God all the time, wants these hard qorking ppl, deported back. Now the bible says that God loves each of us, for who we are, Romney and Ryan, as well as the whole Republican Party don’t have that attitude. Here ppl like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O’Reilly. They always talk about how God is letting this country go into ruins, but their stance is that of a hypocrite. I say get your facts straight before you start condemning Obama’s victory, b/c had Romney won, this country would of favored the rich like in George W. Bush’s presidency

Illegal* Immigrants** enter*** a country by** showing** total disrespect towards the** laws** of the country they are entering. It is a** criminal** way of doing things. Which has** automatic** consequences!
They* also*** show great** disrespect**,** callousness**, and a lack of consideration for** those** who respectfully and thoughtfully await their turn while faithfully following the rules and procedures laid out by another country for entry into it and future citizenship.
Walk* softly*** when you speak of hypocrites! If folks** can** and** will** push ahead of even their own people this says quite a bit in regards to their character. It is also about lawlessness. Hard working or not…does God not love those law abiding folks who are waiting in line and doing things the right way.

**

 

[coachdennis]

coachdennis;10011088:

Oh please…live dangerously and judge him. He’s a hypocrite ditto for Peloski and Sybilius. GET OFF THE FENCE.

Look Weigle up.

I give up!

I am pro-life! I am not on the fence.

Everyday I give thanks for God’s mercy and that the end of my life, I will be judged by the everloving mercy of my savior. I trust that everyone else will be as well. I put my trust in my savior and thank God that Jesus will be my judge — and not others.

I give up on this thread!

 

[ProVobis]

Well, Romney did get one thing right.

Had the bishops spoken to Obama in Latin, he wouldn’t have understood them.

Lesson learned.

 

[Megan7]

Many people were shocked and saddened by the results of the election. Many have commented that we are no longer a Christian nation, and they are most likely correct. The main problem, however, is the weakness of the American Catholic Church. A common theme I heard, by many people calling into Catholic talk shows, was their complaint against the many priests and bishops who failed to speak out about the issues in this election.

In an address he gave at the University of Toronto in Feb. of 2009. Archbishop Charles Chaput of Philadelphia said the following. “The Church in the United States has done a poor job of forming the faith and conscience of Catholics for more than 40 years. And now we’re harvesting the results – in the public square, in our families and in the confusion of our personal lives. …. And unless Catholics have a conversion of heart that helps us see what we’ve become – that we haven’t just “assimilated” to American culture, but that we’ve also been absorbed and bleached and digested by it – then we’ll fail in our duties to a new generation and a new electorate. And a real Catholic presence in American life will continue to weaken and disappear.”

How true. We have had decades of poor leadership from our shepherds with the result that most Catholics do not know their faith and many really don’t care. We have had a weak, do-nothing Church that is afraid to preach the truth about sin. I saw a news report, which said that, while Hispanic people are generally pro-life and pro-traditional marriage, 71% of Hispanics voted for Obama. Obviously the Church failed to reach this group.

The re-election of Obama is just another sour fruit of Vatican II, and it would seem that the president’s followers are more capable of spreading his false doctrines, than our shepherd’s are at spreading the truths and teachings of the Church. Obama has fooled the country twice now with his pack of lies and misinformation, and the American people bought into it.

American society is declining and going the way of the Roman Empire, and the American Catholic Church is going with it. One of the greatest Fathers of the Church, and Patron of all Catholic Preachers, Saint John Chrysostom (347 A.D. to 407 A.D) said: “Many priests are damned and few bishops are saved”.

As for the true Church, it will, most likely get smaller and smaller. For the true Catholic, our goal must be to persevere in the faith and try to evangelize as many as we can. Our hope is in the orthodoxy of the new, young priests who are coming up. Perhaps, once all of the dead, drift-wood remnants of the false “Spirit of Vatican II” are dead and gone, we can then begin to build a new strong Church in this country – if there is any America left by then.

Viva Cristo Rey!

 

[zeland]

Well said, Coach!

The problems with American society and American Catholics run far, far deeper than Vatican II. (In fact, if properly interpreted, Vatican II would be part of the solution, not the problem.) There is not a single word in the Vatican II documents, to my knowledge, that would justify voting for a pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage candidate.

I agree - it is not the fault of the documents - only those who failed to follow them, and did their own thing in the years following the council.

 

[chero23]

I do deny that because he’s against crony capitalism. Obama and the democrat Congress (and even Bush) bailed out Detroit and Wall Street.

But I guess they get a free pass, huh?

And who was it that went to all those Hollywood fundraisers?

Romney did go out and write an article that he submitted to the Wall Street Journal were he states that “the US Govt should not help out the car industry”. Now were the words "bankrupt in the article, no, but he cannot say that he was out to help these people. I mean look at what he did a wk before the elections. He put an ad in Ohio stating that Jeep was going to move to China. Of course, the people in Ohio know their auto industry very well. They immediately called their company to see if this was true. If I’m not mistaken I believe Chrysler and Chevrolet told Gov. Romney that his comments were false. Look it up and find the truth.

You mention that the Democrats get a free pass for helping out. Look ppl will say their giving away stuff, but the bailout helped so many ppl in Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Indiana. Both parties had elected officials who voted for that provision. This was a mandate that politicians took b/c the ppl of this country needed.

Look, I personally don’t think that politicians should be having fundraisers with anybody, may it be Hollywood, or the NRA. I believe that politicians should work for the people and not just elite.

So did the lady and the others give freely, or did Ceaser tax them to “help the poor” and then deposit the money himself?

The verse that i was referring to was Mark 12:38-44. Im going to post the reading, I am getting the verse from EWTN.
38 And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to go about in long robes, and to have salutations in the market places 39 and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.” 41 And he sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the multitude putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 And a poor widow came, and put in two copper coins, which make a penny. 43 And he called his disciples to him, and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.”
I don’t believe this was about Caesar.
Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz2C4OzLam2

That’s a left-wing scare tactic. Even Ann Coulter isn’t talking about deporting people anymore (thank goodness for that).

The republicans have been arrogant about the immigration issue in the past because the party is loaded with Protestants who see their churches in decline and the Catholic faith–as well as Islam and Mormonism—increasing.

IDK if you watched what Bill O’Reilly talked about on election Night. Were he basically said that minorities went out to vote b/c they want things handed down to them. I don’t believe that man is an independent, im sorry to isagree with you on that.

But it’s nothing we are doing to them, it’s the fact that the whites are committing cultural suicide and high crime rates keep the Black population fairly constant. Meanwhile, their leaders are arguing over so-called “gay marriage” because it isn’t specifically addressed in the Bible.

What a headache that all must be!

You’re not the only one here who isn’t 100% white on here, and I don’t know why you even mentioned it but it is foolhardy if you or anyone else think the democrats care about you because you are X, Y or Z.

Why don’t you ask Native Americans or African-Americans what big progressive government did for them?

They only want your vote because the wannabe liberal elites do not have kids. They want to enjoy all the perks of living in an industrialized country while you and other minorities and immigrants work at Mickey Dees or tend bar for them after a global warming or pro-“gay marriage” summit.

W. Europe and Japan have the exact same problem.

The republicans are more in favor of legal immigration, but it’s also worth noting that the country needs the labor force, especially in agriculture in the Heartland. I don’t think your family should be deported, especially if they’ve worked hard and have committed no crimes.** It’s just stupid to send people home who are helping the economy to a place that they won’t want to be and may be oppressed in .
**
Marco Rubio’s plan sounds good for immigration.
I believe that both parties have ppl that are respectable and are out trying to support these individuals. Having said that it’s our job as constituents to let our lawmakers know, that were not ignorant. And like you mentioned earlier, don’t be fooled by left wing scare tactic, I believe you should also be aware of right wing scare tactics.

That is exactly right.

Romney and Ryan, as well as the whole Republican Party don’t have that attitude. Here ppl like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O’Reilly.

Bill O’Reilly is an independent and his plan for illegal immigration was to give everyone here illegally a J-1 visa. That means you can stay.

Ever gotten a job from a poor person? Do those in your family who work hard, are they working for a poor person?

Everyone benefits from a rising tide. We saw it in 1920 under Calvin Coolidge and in the 1980s under Reagen.

Every time government goes after the rich they always find tax shelters, don’t invest or leave, in which case the government gets nothing and can’t help you and you’re still out of a job.

Pay attention to what happens over the next few years. Liberalism doesn’t work.

 

[flutigirl]

Here in Europe we have already done that. Our hope is Africa, The Far East and Latin America. Here up north in Sweden we just got our big hope - a Nigerian Priest ! He is wonderful, low spoken and orthodox on every important catholic point of faith !