The real cost of illegal immigrants is huge and serious

[Ituyu]

Please excuse the font size of my most recent post. I am having to use “Word” because I am otherwise unable to post here at this time and when I try to preview here I lose all the information.

 

[a_cermak]

“who gains? Who loses? What is my interest?” I suggest the question would be better based on our moral fortitude than on politics. If we are not part of the solution we may well be part of the problem.

Borders have nothing to do with religion. They are a political construct as are the laws regarding immigration.

The point I was trying to get accross is that there are benefits to the immigrants as well as costs. The challenge is to take all the benefits, all the costs and all the risks, tally them up and determine the result. And that result is not the same for everyone. Some benefit more than others from lower priced labor. Some are hurt by lower priced labor. Some factories and industries that rely heavily on immigrant labor might not exist if that cheap labor weren’t available–instead choosing to locate in Mexico or the Dominican Republic. People who hire immigrant labor to provide elder care or child care may earn substantially more as a family and therefore stimulate the economy in other ways. The immigrants themselves buy stuff and so continue the economy.

 

[johnsummers]

This problem ,like the problem in the Middle East, is a result of injustice that exist in other Countries. It is our duty as Catholics to help such people as the need arises. We simply cant’ measure everything in $$$. The Federal Government has caused the majority of this problem by not providing adequate border personel over the last 20 years. Now we wnat to solve the problem in a couple of months.

john

 

[mrs_abbott]

Here are some good comments about the real cost of illegal immigrants from the US Senate.

We certainly do not see many of the bleeding heart liberals who support illegals offering to help pay for the real costs or to help clean up the mess. They just pontificate and then expect others pay up.

1. Some of the real dollar costs and some other costs to the welfare of our society:

“ . . .a study by the U.S.-Mexico Border Counties Coalition estimated that hospitals in Arizona were required to provide a whopping $100 million to $200 million a year in uncompensated health care for illegal aliens.

Think what that means to health-care delivery in Arizona. A mother about to deliver her baby may encounter clogged emergency rooms and long wait times because hospitals must devote scarce resources to also treat illegal aliens. Since they are not compensated for the care they are required to provide, hospitals have only a few choices: pass on the costs to paying patients (usually American citizens); absorb the costs; or limit (or eliminate) services they provide to the community.”

Now that is scarry. Reduced medical care for US citzens and legal residents who are ready and willing to pay so illegals who refuse to pay can be treated. How can this be just?

“Aside from uncompensated health-care costs, communities are also required to bear the costs of arresting, prosecuting, and jailing illegal immigrants who commit other crimes. According to a study by the University of Arizona, those costs amounted to as much as $125 million per year – and that was just in the 28 southwestern border counties in Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas.”

1. Costs to the environment: (even the tree huggers should be upset by this)

“Our natural environment is damaged by many thousands of illegal border crossers, who trample sensitive lands and leave tons of trash behind them. Local governments are forced to devote an increasing share of scare resources to deal with illegal immigrants . . – which in turn diminishes the ability of local governments to provide improved resources for their own citizens.”

1. Amnesty of any type is not an acceptable answer.

“Turning a blind eye to illegal immigration, or sanctioning such behavior, undermines the rule of law in our country. It mocks those who wait patiently, sometimes for years, to enter the U.S. through legal channels. It encourages more people to immigrate illegally with the expectation that they, too, might benefit from some future amnesty. Any reform of our nation’s immigration laws should be careful to avoid amnesty by any name.”

Read more:

kyl.senate.gov/print_page.cfm?File=legis_center/border.cfm

If they want to live in the United States, that’s awesome! Just be sure to go about it legally.

 

[johnsummers]

If they want to live in the United States, that’s awesome! Just be sure to go about it legally.

I guess that Jesus is a bleeding heart liberal too! “What so ever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to Me”

 

[puzzleannie]

this story in our local paper highlights just the health care costs associated with illegals. we have no public hospitals here, all are private, but apparently you cannot turn anyone away.

themonitor.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=15506&Section=Local

I can tell you an emergency room visit will take at least 8-10 hours because they are clogged with people using them as an ordinary doctor’s office.

 

[Robert_Bay]

WARNING

Please do not copy quotes from previous threads. Keep the conversation in the existing thread.

Thank you

 

[Ituyu]

Ituyu:

Suffice it to say that the Church I believe in does not support or advocate lying, cheating and stealing as legitimate means to achieve material gains. While such acts may be illegal the point here is that they are immoral and as such are incompatible with “love, mercy and charity”

Well then you think that the Catholic Church does that when it supports the rights of “illegal” immigrants? You think that the USCCB is being immoral because it supports the rights of these same immigrants? The Popes you would say are being immoral when they stand up for the rights of the “illegal”? You think that Jesus would condemn these people because they would use phony identification? Then you don’t really understand the Church I believe in.

I think I would call it vigilantism. If someone tried to murder me I would likely call it attempted murder if I tried to murder them back. We have law enforcement services in our modern community and that is the avenue we should refer such issues to. Taking the law into our own hands has been considered inappropriate for some time.

Funny, do you support the vigilante Minutemen? People that would bear arms against men, women and children? Should we deputize citizen groups to round up these nasty and dangerous criminals who broke the law to get a job? Would you not support the breaking up of families by deportation? Would you not say that’s too bad my little citizen child that your parent’s had to be deported because they broke the law and now they must decide to take you back to your country of origin along with your siblings or leave you behind? Fremont, be for real! I am asking you to respond to the moral aspects. Just because something is “legal” you think that’s what makes things right or wrong?. So let me restate my question. If somebody stole something from me would it be “wrong” for me to steal it back? Morally, am I stealing something if it’s mine? Maybe I’m not being clear enough. Do you think that the laws on Abortion are right and therefore it is right to have an abortion? You see Fremont, Immigrant rights, Abortion, the poor, and Euthansia are on the same side of the moral equation of Life issues for the Catholic Church. To arbitarily deny someone the right to provide for their families is wrong even if it’s legal.

 

[Ituyu]

Actually I support the idea that illegal immigration is wrong and believe that the behaviors of many illegal immigrants are immoral and in violation of Church teaching. As such we should condemn this behavior.

“Illegal” immigration is wrong. BUT, we created it. It is our wrong. It shouldn’t be necessary for them to risk their lives to get a job. Maybe it was a mistake but it’s been a mistake that we’ve repeated for the past 50 years. We closed the door to “legal” immigration to these people. We can make it right by allowing them to go through the process now. We can decline those that don’t meet our requirements. We can weed out those with criminal records. And, we can do it at virtually no cost to us because they basically would underwrite the entire process through fees, penalties and added revenues. So there is no need to disrupt our economy, family unity or to punish more than that for I repeat crossing our borders without permission is not a crime nor is working for a living at an honest job. They’re here because we needed them here and to punish them for that is not just foolish, it’s wrong.

 

[HollyDolly]

They had an article on this very thing in today’s San Antonio Express news regarding babies born mainly in the border counties,like Starr and others,whose parents are illegals.
Costs the counties here in Texas all kinds of money.

 

[Fremont]

Well then you think that the Catholic Church does that when it supports the rights of “illegal” immigrants? You think that the USCCB is being immoral because it supports the rights of these same immigrants? The Popes you would say are being immoral when they stand up for the rights of the “illegal”? You think that Jesus would condemn these people because they would use phony identification? Then you don’t really understand the Church I believe in.]

If the USCCB promotes that the ends justify the means and that it is proper to lie, cheat and steal to obtain material goods, then yes I believe they are in error.

I believe that human rights are one thing and rights of illegal immigrants are another. I further believe that illegal immigrants have very few rights. Entering this country in a clandestine and illegal manner, lying, cheating and stealing are not among those rights.

I have very little respect for the UCSSB. Some to many to most of the USCCB bishops have shown distain for US laws as vividly demonstrated in the recent scandal.

I was very pleased to recently read that the former bishop of Las Vegas will be prosecuted as an accessory and for obstruction of justice for his role. I hope he gets a very stiff prison sentence. I would like to see 2 or 3 dozen more of the bishops in prison too. Maybe that would give a big enough kick in the rump to the Pope and the Vatican to wake them up to the fact these bishops are not trustworthy and need regular instruction that they are not above the law as well as need performance reviews at frequent intervals.

I do not presume to put works into the mouth of Jesus but I would expect that He would condemn lying, cheat and stealing.

Funny, do you support the vigilante Minutemen? People that would bear arms against men, women and children? Should we deputize citizen groups to round up these nasty and dangerous criminals who broke the law to get a job? Would you not support the breaking up of families by deportation? Would you not say that’s too bad my little citizen child that your parent’s had to be deported because they broke the law and now they must decide to take you back to your country of origin along with your siblings or leave you behind? Fremont, be for real! I am asking you to respond to the moral aspects. Just because something is “legal” you think that’s what makes things right or wrong?. So let me restate my question. If somebody stole something from me would it be “wrong” for me to steal it back? Morally, am I stealing something if it’s mine? Maybe I’m not being clear enough. Do you think that the laws on Abortion are right and therefore it is right to have an abortion? You see Fremont, Immigrant rights, Abortion, the poor, and Euthansia are on the same side of the moral equation of Life issues for the Catholic Church. To arbitarily deny someone the right to provide for their families is wrong even if it’s legal.

The Minuteman organization I am familiar does not carry firearms. I believe that is good. Maybe there is another civilian group that is armed. I would not support that.

The Minuteman group I see, God bless them, are like a large, organized neighborhood watch and doing a wonderful job of reporting illegal activities to the authorities. Something the US bishops refused to do. I hold the Minuteman group in much higher respect than those bishops.

If families are disrupted by deportation of illegal immigrants that is the choice of the families, not the authorities. Affected families are free to keep their relatives together in any country where they have citizenship or legal residence. If a child is a US citizen he or she can reside with the family until they reach of age. They can then legally come to the US and work to sponsor other family members.

To answer your question, yes I believe it is wrong to steal back something that someone stole from you. There are other, less violent and legal methods to recover your property. There are also other legal means for residents of Mexico to enter the US – about 200,000 are admitted per year on average. That may not be enough for you but frankly I couldn’t care less.

Other statements are ridiculous. They mix legal and illegal acts together as a common theme. Balderdash.

 

[Fremont]

“Illegal” immigration is wrong. BUT, we created it. It is our wrong. It shouldn’t be necessary for them to risk their lives to get a job. Maybe it was a mistake but it’s been a mistake that we’ve repeated for the past 50 years. We closed the door to “legal” immigration to these people. We can make it right by allowing them to go through the process now. We can decline those that don’t meet our requirements. We can weed out those with criminal records. And, we can do it at virtually no cost to us because they basically would underwrite the entire process through fees, penalties and added revenues. So there is no need to disrupt our economy, family unity or to punish more than that for I repeat crossing our borders without permission is not a crime nor is working for a living at an honest job. They’re here because we needed them here and to punish them for that is not just foolish, it’s wrong.

No one is forcing illegal immigrants to risk their lives to get a job. The vast majorities already have jobs in Mexico. There have been various recent reports that Mexico is suffering a labor shortage. That means there are jobs available in Mexico with no risk to life and limb to get them.

I agree that something needs to be done. I favor the programs that make it uneconomical and unpleasant for any employer to hire an illegal or retain an illegal employee. The jobs will go away over time and the illegal immigrants will return to their country of origin. During this process I also favor review of our immigration laws with adjustments determined to be reasonable and prudent.

 

[Fremont]

They had an article on this very thing in today’s San Antonio Express news regarding babies born mainly in the border counties,like Starr and others,whose parents are illegals.
Costs the counties here in Texas all kinds of money.

Very good post and right on topic.

You are so right. The costs are enormous.

This is not fair to the honest and law-abiding citizens and residents of the US.

 

[Fremont]

this story in our local paper highlights just the health care costs associated with illegals. we have no public hospitals here, all are private, but apparently you cannot turn anyone away.

themonitor.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=15506&Section=Local

I can tell you an emergency room visit will take at least 8-10 hours because they are clogged with people using them as an ordinary doctor’s office.

Very good post and right on topic.

The article is very good and a bit scary. The US should not have to be a free health clinic to the rest of the world. This is not fair to the honest and law-abiding citizens and legal residents of the US.

 

[Fremont]

If they want to live in the United States, that’s awesome! Just be sure to go about it legally.

You are right on.

The US provides legal immigration to a huge number of people from Mexico – an average of about 200,000 per year. This is the most from any other country in the world - over twice as many as from the second place country, India.

No matter what some proclaim there are legal ways to immigrate to the US.

 

[Ituyu]

You are right on.

The US provides legal immigration to a huge number of people from Mexico – an average of about 200,000 per year. This is the most from any other country in the world - over twice as many as from the second place country, India.

No matter what some proclaim there are legal ways to immigrate to the US.

Another meaningless tangent. It doesn’t change anything. Nor, does it even address the issue.

 

[Ituyu]

Very good post and right on topic.

You are so right. The costs are enormous.

This is not fair to the honest and law-abiding citizens and residents of the US.

Just another hariball excuse to attack the poor. It’s not an issue of immigration but rather an issue of the poor. Had those people been allowed legal entry same problem. If the jobs they held were held by somebody esle …same problem.

 

[Fremont]

Borders have nothing to do with religion. They are a political construct as are the laws regarding immigration.

The point I was trying to get accross is that there are benefits to the immigrants as well as costs. The challenge is to take all the benefits, all the costs and all the risks, tally them up and determine the result. And that result is not the same for everyone. Some benefit more than others from lower priced labor. Some are hurt by lower priced labor. Some factories and industries that rely heavily on immigrant labor might not exist if that cheap labor weren’t available–instead choosing to locate in Mexico or the Dominican Republic. People who hire immigrant labor to provide elder care or child care may earn substantially more as a family and therefore stimulate the economy in other ways. The immigrants themselves buy stuff and so continue the economy.

I apologize for misunderstanding your post. I will try to be better in the future.

Your post is very good. It is a complex matter with some gaining more than others at various levels. Illegal immigrants pay relatively little in federal taxes but they do buy goods and contribute to the economy in that way.

Now matter how we address illegal immigration it is likely major changes will be needed. I favor the proposals in congress that will make it uneconomical and unpleasant to hire or retain illegals. The jobs will go away and so will the illegals.

No matter how it happens with the elimination of illegal workers wages will go up substantially. Some companies will fail, others will adjust with more automation via machines and robotics and still others will relocate their labor-intensive operations offshore. The companies that thrive will be a boon to our economy and our GNP will be stronger.

I hope that during this process prudent and suitable changes will be made to our immigration laws and guest worker programs so areas best served by them will be addressed as well.

 

[Fremont]

Another meaningless tangent. It doesn’t change anything. Nor, does it even address the issue.

The issue is illegal immigration.

I believe it is wrong. There are legal alternatives and that is what I posted here.

I am fairly happy with our current immigration laws. I am not too happy with our lack of enforcement of those laws nor am I happy with the way we allow illegals to be hired. I am for elimination of all employment for illegals via reasonable means as well as a much more rigorous protection of our borders.

If you are unhappy with our current immigration laws, rules and policies you too have alternatives. You can lobby congress – I have already suggested this earlier, you can run for office and become part of the process, you can lobby the President, etc. Our republic is set up to hear about new ideas and criticism of old ideas that may need attention. The process may be slow but it is the best one in the world at this time, in my opinion.

Wringing of hands and weeping laments will not likely achieve changes.

 

[Fremont]

Just another hariball excuse to attack the poor. It’s not an issue of immigration but rather an issue of the poor. Had those people been allowed legal entry same problem. If the jobs they held were held by somebody esle …same problem.

This forum is about immigration. There may be others that discuss the poor and how they might best be helped. It might be useful to seek those and offer help there.

And per your post here. Baloney. There is no attack on the poor in my opinion, at least I have not seen any in this forum.

On the contrary, aid provided by the citizens of the US, directly and through various charities, as well as foreign aid by the US government to various poor of the world is extremely generous. There have been numerous occasions when the US has welcomed refugees from areas of conflict. That is not attacking the poor.

If you believe this generosity is misplaced or provided to the wrong people so be it. This is a republic that provides alternatives for you to strive to get your feelings and ideas heard.

Back to immigration. The costs to our country inflicted by illegals are enormous. I am for laws and policies that encourage illegal immigrants to leave the US voluntarily. There are very reasonable means to achieve this under discussion in congress at this time. Maybe even better ideas to rid the country of illegals will come up in the future. I will likely support any means that merely cause inconvenience to those who violate our laws and adopt lying, cheating and stealing as a way of life.