The Real Presence in the Eucharist...

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Curtis,

You ask a good question that I, a cradle Catholic, have wrestled with, “What does this really mean?”. I’ve read the cathechism and have been left with the same question. Finally I’ve come to something that satisfies me thanks to a homily I heard at Mass.
I can’t quote the priest’s words, but they really left me knowing that the crucifixion was done for each of us individually and Christ was giving all of his human body including blood for us. The mass re creates this experience and the Eucharist is the culmination of the experience. God is really present if you accept this sacrifice. I do.

This is probably faulty Catholic theology, but it’s what works for me.
 
Matthew 26:26-28 (King James Version)

“And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

He gave the Apostles what appeared to be bread and wine, yet told them in eternal truth, that what they were receiving was now His Body and Blood.

1 Corinthians 11:27 (King James Version)

“Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”

Condemnation! Eternal hell for unworthy eating and drinking of the Body and Blood of the Lord. The power of this verse alone is amazing.

Luke 24:30-31 (King James Version)

“And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.”

All along the journey they were in the presence of Jesus. But, they recognized Him only in the breaking of the bread.

But, beyond any and all of this, are you willing to wager one hour? Go to a local Catholic parish when they have Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Spend a single hour with Jesus in the Sacrament, beseeching Him to reveal Himself to you. You will not be disappointed. He will answer.
 
\For those that believe in Jesus Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, how do you know for sure? I know there are certain passages in Scripture such as John 6 that sounds like the Real Presence but, if your interpretation is wrong, everybody who worships the Eucharist is guilty of idolatry.\

**How do you know that your apparent denial of the Real Presence is not wrong?

If your interpretation is wrong, then you are guilty of blasphemy and sacrilege.

I might add that neither the Roman Catholic nor the Orthodox Church has ever played by the rule of Sola Scriptura. That’s something from the outside that Protestants, especially pop-evangelicals, have imposed upon the Bible and faith. The Bible itself nowhere teaches this.

There are plenty of early Christian writings, such as the letters of St. Ignatius, that make it clear the Real Presence was believed from the beginning.

As to what convinced me, it was a Whom: the Holy Spirit.**
 
Curtis,

You ask a good question that I, a cradle Catholic, have wrestled with, “What does this really mean?”. I’ve read the cathechism and have been left with the same question. Finally I’ve come to something that satisfies me thanks to a homily I heard at Mass.
I can’t quote the priest’s words, but they really left me knowing that the crucifixion was done for each of us individually and Christ was giving all of his human body including blood for us. The mass re creates this experience and the Eucharist is the culmination of the experience. God is really present if you accept this sacrifice. I do.

This is probably faulty Catholic theology, but it’s what works for me.
Maybe a slight tweak: The mass re-presents the one, eternal sacrifice that Christ made for all men. It is not a re-sacrifice, it is the one sacrifice, made by a God Who is outside of time. We are at Calvary at each mass.
 
These are all such great contributions! Thanks all who have responded thus far and I am going through the Scripture right now. Just one more question about this though. If the Bread and Wine are really Christ’s Body and Blood, how could He be giving it to the Apostles before His Death? His Death on the Cross is what saves us…This all happened before He died on the cross.
 
Raised Baptist and in RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults, the conversion process to Catholicism) right now. A GREAT source for information on this is the author Scott Hahn. He was a former Protestant minister who converted. His writing is very easy to understand but very educational. The first book of his I would suggest is The Lamb’s Supper. GREAT BOOK. It will go in great detail about the Mass and about the Eucharist. It will also give you perspective on how the Passover is the forerunner of the Eucharist.
I read one of his books before…Rome Sweet Home…He is definitely easy to understand and really gets his points across. I might just have to check that book out as well. Thanks! 👍
 
Hi Curtis!

I am a cradle Catholic in my mid 40s, but about 15 years ago came very close to leaving the Church because I was unsure of Jesus’ true presence in the Holy Eucharist.

I prayed at that time what I now refer to jokingly as “the dangerous prayer.” It went something like this: “Lord, my heart is restless. I don’t know where you want me to be, and I know if you are leading me away from the Catholic Church that it will be difficult for my family, but I want to follow You, Jesus. I want to know the truth. Please lead me where you want me to be.”

I call this the dangerous prayer, because God gives you what you ask for, just often not in the way you think it should come about.

In the following months after the prayer, my husband lost his job, we went through a series of difficulties with family members, and then I came down with a serious illness that the doctors could not diagnose or treat.

During this time, I had many people praying for my healing. Also, because I was bedridden for nearly a year, I had a lot of time to listen to the radio, books on tape, and read books when my strength increased a little. I was drawn to the Catholic radio station because it played soothing music, and my central nervous system was damaged so anything very loud really bothered me. Friends brought me wonderful Catholic tapes to listen to (including Scott Hahn, Fr. John Corapi, Fr. Larry Richards and other names that are familiar to many on the forums). We were still struggling financially (I am married and had two small children at the time), but my parents paid for a satellite dish so I could watch TV because I wasn’t able to do much at all. Scanning through the channels one night I came across this little nun on TV who was full of life and very funny (Mother Angelica). I was drawn to her and I started watching EWTN (the Catholic TV network).

Wouldn’t you know, that when I was listening to TV, radio, tapes or reading books, that God was giving me the words I needed to hear. Encouragement on how much He loves me, the value of redemptive suffering, the great gifts of the sacraments, and especially the Holy Eucharist, and it intrigued me so much that I began studying and reading and studying some more. The more I learned the more everything began to make sense to me, and I have come to love Jesus and the Church He founded more and more each day.

I also experienced during the first few years, and continue to experience today, the true meaning of being a member of the Body of Christ. People from our Church brought us meals, groceries, helped us pay bills, bought Christmas presents for our children, came to clean the house and do laundry, helped watch my children, and so many other wonderful acts of charity that I can’t even recall them all. For when one member suffers, we all suffer; when one member rejoices, we all rejoice as St. Paul says in Corinthians.

The point of this long story is: Ask Jesus to guide you to the Truth. It may not come in an easy manner, but He will answer your prayer and lead you where He wants you to be.

While I still struggle with chronic illness problems, my faith is stronger every day. Even if I could turn back time, and regain my health fully, I wouldn’t choose to do so, because I would have missed the greatest treasure on earth – knowing completely and fully without a shred of doubt in my mind, heart or soul that Jesus is Truly Present in the Holy Eucharist.

You see, all those people who were praying for healing for me, praying for a miracle, had their prayers heard. Only God knew my heart and soul needed healing more than my body, and chose to heal that which will last forever, not this temporary body that will one day fade away. For that I am grateful beyond any measure!

Also, you asked what if we find out that we were wrong, and Jesus isn’t present in the Holy Eucharist, isn’t that idolatry? Well, God knows our hearts. If we believe with our hearts that we are worshipping Jesus, and not a piece of bread, then it’s not idolatry, right? We are not consciously choosing to worship a piece of bread. God knows that! He knows everything!

I’ve also had some personal Eucharistic miracles that God graced me with, and that I have discussed with my priest who is my spiritual advisor. I spend a minimum of an hour in Eucharistic adoration each week, and I never doubt that Jesus is Truly present there. He did tell us “I will be with you until the end of time,” and I am so thankful He is. I shudder to think what kind of shape our world would be in if His presence wasn’t in every tabernacle of every Catholic Church throughout the world.
Thanks for sharing your heartfelt story. I will be praying about it and reading up as much as I can. Even got a Catechism today and I’m sure that will help out as well. God bless.
 
While we’re at it, it’s probably good to look at what the Council of Ephesus had to say on the matter:

Council of Ephesus

“We will necessarily add this also. Proclaiming the death, according to the flesh, of the only-begotten Son of God, that is Jesus Christ, confessing his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into heaven, we offer the unbloody sacrifice in the churches, and so go on to the mystical thanksgivings, and are sanctified, having received his holy flesh and the precious blood of Christ the Savior of us all. And not as common flesh do we receive it; God forbid: nor as of a man sanctified and associated with the Word according to the unity of worth, or as having a divine indwelling, but as truly the life-giving and very flesh of the Word himself. For he is the life according to his nature as God, and when he became united to his flesh, he made it also to be life-giving” (Session 1, Letter of Cyril to Nestorius [A.D. 431]).

As an official pronouncement of the church, the date of the belief is now safely established at least as far back as 431 A.D.
Something caught my attention on this. You see the area I bolded above. Jesus’ Sacrifice is once for all as Catholics believe as well but how could it be an “unbloody sacrifice”?

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and **without shedding of blood is no remission. **
 
These are all such great contributions! Thanks all who have responded thus far and I am going through the Scripture right now. Just one more question about this though. If the Bread and Wine are really Christ’s Body and Blood, how could He be giving it to the Apostles before His Death? His Death on the Cross is what saves us…This all happened before He died on the cross.
It was a commandment. “Do this”, He commanded, “in remembrance of me”, so He instituted the Eucharist before His death to serve ever after his death.
 
Something caught my attention on this. You see the area I bolded above. Jesus’ Sacrifice is once for all as Catholics believe as well but how could it be an “unbloody sacrifice”?

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and **without shedding of blood is no remission. **
Jesus is a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 5:6, Hebrews 5:10, Hebrews 6:20, Hebrews 7:11-17). Melchizedek was the high priest of Salem, which later became Jerusalem. He was Father Abraham’s priest. He was first to offer a sacrifice of bread and wine (Genesis 14:18-19). It was the first unbloody sacrifice. Since Jesus knew He would shed His Blood for us, He gave us the Eucharist as the perpetual unbloody sacrifice.
 
Something caught my attention on this. You see the area I bolded above. Jesus’ Sacrifice is once for all as Catholics believe as well but how could it be an “unbloody sacrifice”?

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and **without shedding of blood is no remission. **
Scott Hahn deals with this a bit in The Lamb’s Supper. Jesus completed the sacrifice on the cross, but historically, when the Jews offered a blood sacrifice in the Old Testament, it needed to be consumed to be completed. So… all we are doing is consuming the sacrifice that has already taken place at Cavalry.It is “unbloody” to emphasize that Jesus is not being “re-sacrificed”.

If anyone cares to elaborate on this further, please do so.
 
Next, we have Cyprian of Carthage talking about how the Eucharist must be eaten only by those who have confessed of their sins. The sacrifice of the Eucharist may only be consumed by the pure, because it is truly the Body and Blood of Christ. He then proceeds to back up his opinion through Holy Scripture:

Cyprian of Carthage

“He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord” (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).

Here are several more quotes:

Origen

“Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]” (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).
**
Hippolytus**

"‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper " (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).

Tertullian

“[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God” (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).
**
Clement of Alexandria**

“’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

Here is what J. N. D. Kelly has to say in his book Early Christian Doctrines about the above quotes. (pgs 211-212):

“Hippolytus speaks of ‘the body and the blood’ through which the Church is saved, and Tertullian regularly describes the bread as ‘the Lord’s body.’ The converted pagan, he remarks, ‘feeds on the richness of the Lord’s body, that is, on the Eucharist.’ The realism of his theology comes to light in the argument, based on the intimate relation of body and soul, that just as in baptism the body is washed with water so that the soul may be cleansed, so in the Eucharist ‘the flesh feeds upon Christ’s body and blood so that the soul may be filled with God.’ Clearly his assumption is that the Savior’s body and blood are as real as the baptismal water. Cyprian’s attitude is similar. (see my last post) Lapsed Christians who claim communion without doing penance, he declares, ‘do violence to his body and blood, a sin more heinous against the Lord with their hands and mouths than when they denied him.’ Later he expatiates on the terrifying consequences of profaning the sacrament, and the stories he tells confirm that he took the Real Presence literally”.

Now, out of these last few passages, no single quote would support belief in the Real Presence all by itself. However, taken as a collection, it provides strong evidence that the belief was widespread. In light of even earlier documentary evidence (which I’ll give in my next post) that is far more clear on the doctrine of the Real Presence, these quotes become important as evidence of continuity.

That quote by Tertullian really made so much sense to me also in comparison with baptism. The evidence is definitely stacking up against symbolism 😉
 
Ignatius of Antioch

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

And finally, we have the most important quote of all. Our existing evidence suggests that Ignatius was trained by none other than the Apostle John himself, and that he was personally ordained a bishop by the Apostle Peter. This is a man who intimately knew and conversed with the Apostles, and even HE is professing belief in the Real Presence. He is doing this in his letters to his congregations, and we have written records of it as early as 110 AD. The Didache, written about 70 AD (not by Ignatius, but by an unknown author), is the oldest non-Biblical surviving document that we have about Christianity, and it too emphasizes the sacrificial nature of the Mass.

So what’s the bottom line? If the Real Presence of the Eucharist is a false teaching, then the Apostles themselves incorrectly trained and appointed a bishop with false beliefs, and are responsible for the perversion of the Catholic Church. It is very clear that this would not be likely. There are other documents that also support this opinion, but I’ve only listed the most important and significant ones. I should also point out some relevant Bible passages:

1 Cor. 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and, most forcefully, John 6:32–71

It would also do you well to read “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn. It describes in detail how the Catholic Church has always taught that the Book of Revelation by John is in fact an analogy describing the Sacrifice of the Mass. Most of the images used are direct symbolic representations of the various parts of the Catholic Mass. His interpretation is not new (nor is it the only acceptable one), but it does demonstrate how the Mass IS highly Biblical, as is the Real Presence and its sacrificial nature.

I now give you some time to digest all of this…
Game, set, match my friend…:clapping:
 
I’d also like to present the following Biblical argument, spelled out expertly in The Lamb’s Supper by Dr. Scott Hahn. Perhaps you would like to re-read Revelation in light of the following idea. Compare the imagery of Revelation to the parts of the Catholic Mass:

Sunday worship 1:10
a high priest 1:13
an altar 8:3-4; 11:1; 14:18
priests (presybteroi) 4:4; 11:15; 14:3; 19:4
vestments 1:13; 4:4; 6:11; 7:9; 15:6; 19:13-14
consecrated celibacy 14:4
lamp stands, or Menorah 1:12, 2:5
penitence ch. 2 and 3
incense 5:8; 8:3-5
the book, or scroll 5:1
the Eucharistic Host 2:17
chalices 15:7; ch. 16; 21:9
the Sign of the Cross (the tau) 7:3; 14:1; 22:4
the Gloria 15:3-4
the Alleluia 19:1, 3, 4, 6
Lift up your hearts 11:12
the “Holy, Holy, Holy” 4:8
the Amen 19:4; 22:21
the “Lamb of God” 5:6 and throughout
the prominence of the Virgin Mary 12:1-6; 13-17
intercession of angels and saints 5:8; 6:0-10; 8:3-4

(You will want to pay attention to these three in particular. Jesus is referred to as the “Lamb of God” in Revelation (and almost exclusively in Revelation) to emphasize his ongoing sacrifice. He becomes the one perfect sacrifice for all, and replaces eternally all other sacrifice. His sacrifice, which continues for all time in the Catholic Mass, is a foreshadowing of the worship we will have for God in Heaven.)
devotion to St. Michael, archangel 12:7
antiphonal chant 4:8-11; 5:9-14; 7:10-12; 18:1-8
readings from Scripture ch 2-3; 5; 8:2-11
(again, note the strong importance of Scripture with regard to the Mass)
the priesthood of the faithful 1:6; 20:6
catholicity, or universality 7:9
silent contemplation 8:1
the marriage supper of the Lamb 19:9, 17

I could go into much greater detail, but Dr. Hahn does it much better than I.
I will definitely be checking these out right now…Gotta love E-Sword 😉
 
I’d also like to present the following Biblical argument, spelled out expertly in The Lamb’s Supper by Dr. Scott Hahn. Perhaps you would like to re-read Revelation in light of the following idea. Compare the imagery of Revelation to the parts of the Catholic Mass:

Sunday worship 1:10
a high priest 1:13
an altar 8:3-4; 11:1; 14:18
priests (presybteroi) 4:4; 11:15; 14:3; 19:4
vestments 1:13; 4:4; 6:11; 7:9; 15:6; 19:13-14
consecrated celibacy 14:4
lamp stands, or Menorah 1:12, 2:5
penitence ch. 2 and 3
incense 5:8; 8:3-5
the book, or scroll 5:1
the Eucharistic Host 2:17
chalices 15:7; ch. 16; 21:9
the Sign of the Cross (the tau) 7:3; 14:1; 22:4
the Gloria 15:3-4
the Alleluia 19:1, 3, 4, 6
Lift up your hearts 11:12
the “Holy, Holy, Holy” 4:8
the Amen 19:4; 22:21
the “Lamb of God” 5:6 and throughout
the prominence of the Virgin Mary 12:1-6; 13-17
intercession of angels and saints 5:8; 6:0-10; 8:3-4

(You will want to pay attention to these three in particular. Jesus is referred to as the “Lamb of God” in Revelation (and almost exclusively in Revelation) to emphasize his ongoing sacrifice. He becomes the one perfect sacrifice for all, and replaces eternally all other sacrifice. His sacrifice, which continues for all time in the Catholic Mass, is a foreshadowing of the worship we will have for God in Heaven.)
devotion to St. Michael, archangel 12:7
antiphonal chant 4:8-11; 5:9-14; 7:10-12; 18:1-8
readings from Scripture ch 2-3; 5; 8:2-11
(again, note the strong importance of Scripture with regard to the Mass)
the priesthood of the faithful 1:6; 20:6
catholicity, or universality 7:9
silent contemplation 8:1
the marriage supper of the Lamb 19:9, 17

I could go into much greater detail, but Dr. Hahn does it much better than I.
For once, I was actually understanding Revelation! LOL Such great passages and thanks for explaining them. What really hit home the most for me was about Mary. How could that passage be anything but about the Blessed Mother?
 
For me it’s very simple - I’d rather face Our Lord when I die and say ‘Lord, pardon me for taking your blessed words in the Bible too literally’ rather than ‘Lord, pardon me for being slack in my faith and not believing enough of what you set down in scripture’.
 
For those that believe in Jesus Christ’s Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist, how do you know for sure? I know there are certain passages in Scripture such as John 6 that sounds like the Real Presence but, if your interpretation is wrong, everybody who worships the Eucharist is guilty of idolatry. This is something I would want to make sure I was 100% correct on, you know? What convinced you unequivocally that Jesus Christ’s Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity are Present in the Holy Eucharist?

~Curtis
Those are some great verses…Thanks for posting that…I’m not here to question anybody that believes in the Real Presence…I’m Protestant but looking into the Catholic faith…I was just seeing what made others believe 100% that Jesus Christ is Present in the Eucharist. If anybody posting has converted from a Protestant church (I attend a Bible church now which is associated with the Baptist churches) and became Catholic, I’m sure they know what I’m going through. God bless.
I would love to hear about it either from you or from a link you could suggest. 🙂
Hi Curtis!

I just found this thread or I’d have posted on it long before now. I have a bit of a Baptist background so I do understand what you’re dealing with I think.

Let me share with you the blog article I have on this. The Eucharist IS Scriptural and I will add My Testimony. Feel free to PM me if I can be of any help at all.

I’ll remember you at Mass later this morning.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum. 🙂
 
Hi Curtis!

I just found this thread or I’d have posted on it long before now. I have a bit of a Baptist background so I do understand what you’re dealing with I think.

Let me share with you the blog article I have on this. The Eucharist IS Scriptural and I will add My Testimony. Feel free to PM me if I can be of any help at all.

I’ll remember you at Mass later this morning.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum. 🙂
Thanks for those links…Just finished reading your Testimony…Good stuff! 👍

When it all comes down to it, the Holy Eucharist is the great divide…Either you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is Present in the Eucharist (i’m not talking about consubstantiation like some other churches believe). It seems from what I read from the Early church fathers and Scriptures, that the Lord is Present and that is starting to make my decision a lot easier.

I’m also reading about the Eucharist in the CCC now as well. I’m just gonna keep on learning and, in your own words, “study man study” 😃

Be praying for me at Mass bro…God bless.

~Curtis
 
Hey Curtis, I was going to rattle off like 30+ Church Fathers all endorsing the Real Presence, but Rolltide beat me to it. I too was raised a born-again Evangelical. I converted after discovering the Church Fathers. If you are a reader I would highly recommend that you read the 3 volume “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William Jurgens. It presents, in a higly readable form, a synopsis of all the Church Fathers with representative passages from their works and brief bios.

Keep reading and praying!

🙂
 
Hey Curtis, I was going to rattle off like 30+ Church Fathers all endorsing the Real Presence, but Rolltide beat me to it. I too was raised a born-again Evangelical. I converted after discovering the Church Fathers. If you are a reader I would highly recommend that you read the 3 volume “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William Jurgens. It presents, in a higly readable form, a synopsis of all the Church Fathers with representative passages from their works and brief bios.

Keep reading and praying!

🙂
I have those! 😉 Just reading the Didache earlier tonight actually.
 
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