The Real Presence

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Three things in response to your reference to 1 Cor 11.
  1. The passage reads (in the Douay Rheims)…
    Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
    Please note the use of “Therefore” in the last line. That use would mean that Paul saw the reason for the guilt as being the fact that the Lord’s Supper was a proclamation/shew of the Lord’s death (and not b/c some real bodily presence was involved).
How can you show the Lord’s death without the Lord’s Body being made present? “Show me a Coca-Cola,” I say, and you read me the ingredient list. “I’m thirsty and I want the real thing,” I say, and you read me the rest of Coke’s marketing slogans out of a book. “No, I need something I can actually see and consume,” I say, and you put on a PowerPoint show of Coke ads. You still have not shown me a Coke. You have shown me a bunch of stuff that has to do with Coke. I am thirsty and frustrated, so if I break your laptop and projector and rip up your book of Coke slogans I have not broken or profaned a Coke, I have profaned your stuff that had to do with Coke.
  1. [a bunch of Catholics recieve Communion unworthily, why aren’t they dead?]
How do you know that they are knowingly and intentionally failing to go to Mass? Moreover, since when do you get to decide how, when and what temporal consequence would occur?

You shall not put the Lord your God to the test. Especially when it comes to your neighbor.

I could say more on this topic but I would rather not judge.
  1. In Hebrews 10: 26-29 … Here we see that one can “trample” Jesus underfoot and treat his blood as an unholy thing w/o having any actual physical interaction with Christ’s body or with his blood….and so, obviously a real bodily presence is not required to sin against Christ’s body or his blood.
You are out to prove that no oranges exist. Instead you have proven that fruits exist. You then posit that because fruits other than oranges exist, oranges do not exist. That is a fallacy. You have not proven that there are no oranges among the group “fruits.”
 
a) I don’t think it is a teaching that goes back to the apostles (and therefore, obviously not back to Christ)…***<—The teaching comes directly from Christ himself, in John 6 which non believers of the Eucharist don’t want to believe, or can’t believe because of lack of faith<<<***if you are interested I’ll be happy to provide the Titles of some scholarly works that support my position;

b) the bread remains bread and the wine remains wine…no scholarly works needed in support of this position as any one with the senses of sight, touch, smell/or and taste can easily verify the matter <—Genuine faith involves believing without “scholarly works” OR verification from the five carnal senses. Christians of faith are able to know things which senses don’t detect. and I find the philosophy used to support the inconsistency (between what is observed and what is claimed) to be more than seriously lacking; <—That’s because you’re relying on carnal senses rather than the Word of God…this is where faith is supposed to come into play
and

c) the efforts to support the claim of a real bodily presence from scripture (IMHO) are flawed and do not overcome the obvious fact that Jesus was speaking figuratively <—Christ Himself was arguing with nonbelievers who also were unable to accept Real Presence. If you actually read John 6 you’ll see that He could have obviously responded to their doubts by clarifying that He was speaking “figuratively” but instead of doing that, Christ became more insistent and said that His body and blood were meat and drink “indeed”…not meat and drink "symbolically" was when he likely said (probably in Aramaic), “This - my body”

If this thread takes the normal course, a number of conservative Catholics will:

a) post a bunch of snippets from the ECFs in response to #1 above…typically with no accompanying analysis and as if the scholars that I can marshall in support of my view somehow forgot to read those snippets;

b) claim that I am calling Jesus a liar NO…you just show the same lack of faith shown by those whom Christ was speaking to in John 6. for not disbelieving my eyes and believing “is” means “is” or claim that I must be saying that God isn’t powerful enough to make bread into his body whilst still leaving the “accidents” of the bread in place; and/or

c) claim that various passages (the 3 institution passages, John 6 and 1 Cor 10 and 11) must be interpreted to verify a real bodily presence even though extremely learned scholars do not agree with that assertion.

That said, if you want to undertsand why I believe what I believe, I am happy to answer your questions
Apparently you’re not a Scripture Only kind of guy because if you were you’d believe in the real presence.

You’re basically having the same argument now as unbelievers had 2,000 years ago. They were on the wrong side of the fence and you’d be wise to take a lesson from them.
It’s a Scriptural fact that this issue caused many of Christs disciples to end their walk with Christ…
John 6
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
It’s not about what your senses tell you. It’s about seeing beyond the senses via faith in Christ and His Word. I hope someday you’re able to achieve that.🙂
 
How can you show the Lord’s death without the Lord’s Body being made present?
You are basing too much on a bad translation…the Lord’s Supper proclaims the Lord’s death. You don’t need a RBP to proclaim his death. That’s strike one on your second batter.
How do you know that they are knowingly and intentionally failing to go to Mass? Moreover, since when do you get to decide how, when and what temporal consequence would occur?
First, the sheer numbers involved alone would ensure that a significant number would unworthily participate. No need to go around judging any individual. Second, if the “how, when and what temporal consequence” isn’t determined by the RBP, then it is purely a matter of God’s pleasure and perogative (kinda like the situation with the striking down of Ananias and Sapphira) which, of course, involved the death of sinners w/o in any way involving a RBP. The resulting sickess seen at Corinth then, in no way requires a RBP. Strike two.
You are out to prove that no oranges exist.
No. You claimed that oranges must exist at location A, otherwise X would not/could not happen at A. I showed that X also happens at B where no oranges are present. Therefore, oranges are not required for X and therefore your claim that oranges must be present at A is wrong. Strike three…two down.
 
Radical,

Christ gave the context before the Last Supper…St. Jerome translated word for word…in fact it created the dispute of the words at Mass…of ‘many’ that he used vs all…regarding salvation.

Peter spoke out and said that they knew He would bring them eternal life…where else could they go? Apparently, those who left did not or were unable to recognize and fully follow Christ.

Many followers left Him when He said we would eat His body and Blood…and the other part you are missing is that Jesus’ Last Supper is the New Memorial, and that it is now the new or fulfilled form of worship. The curtain was torn, people rose from the dead and appeared, there was great darkness and earthquakes…pretty shattering, wouldn’t you think?

What I mean here in these events…were not just words, or a philosophy of beliefs or a new direction in life…but that physical matter was changed…and transformed and singularly identified in the Eucharist…The Lord’s physical being, the Resurrected Christ, would become the new and greater reality of God over creation.

The Mass is the new form of worship. And Jesus also said that what we do to our neighbor we do to Him. We can step on Him unworthily by stepping on our neighbor.
The Great Heresy in those days was denying the Sacred in the Breaking of Bread.

Also we have to discern our own hearts and spirits…one can say, I simply do not believe…You just can’t draw out passages from the bible and ignore the tradition of faith carried by so many people for 2,000 years.
 
You are basing too much on a bad translation…the Lord’s Supper proclaims the Lord’s death. You don’t need a RBP to proclaim his death.
Why is it so important that the Corinthians were getting sick and dying? If this was just a “proclamation” then why doesn’t the same thing happen at any church when someone is preaching or reading the Bible? After all, you claim the sheer numbers of sinners would cause mass casualties whenever the Eucharist is shared; if the Eucharist is no different than any other proclamation of the Lord’s death, then what you described should happen at ANY such proclamation.
First, the sheer numbers involved alone would ensure that a significant number would unworthily participate. No need to go around judging any individual.
You just did. Unless you are without sin, put those stones down.
Second, if the “how, when and what temporal consequence” isn’t determined by the RBP, then it is purely a matter of God’s pleasure and perogative (kinda like the situation with the striking down of Ananias and Sapphira)
And everything else in existence. Again you are relying on the fallacy of false distribution.
 
Have you ever seen God or otherwise percieved Him with your senses?
nope
Does that mean God does not exist?
No, but it does mean that God isn’t really bodily present in the room next to you at this very moment (as “really” and as “bodily” and as “present” are all normally used)
If I make an octagon out of steel, paint it red, and put white letters spelling “STOP” on it? What have I made? No, not a stop sign. I have made a red piece of metal with some letters on it. No one is obligated to stop before my stop sign.
This red piece of metal that says “STOP” becomes a stop sign when the Legislature passes and the Governor signs a bill that says people must stop before signs like mine. Only after their words have been said is my red piece of metal a stop sign.
The words changed the subtance of the red metal thingy into a stop sign because the government has the power to give legal effect to things. Does God have such power? Doesn’t He have the further power to give ANY effect to ANYTHING He wants?
hmmmm…the accidents of your red octagon are exactly the same as the accidents of a stop sign. On the other hand, the accidents of bread are quite different from the accidents of a body. Further, the “stop sign” created by the government wouldn’t actually be a stop sign and surely wouldn’t work as a stop sign if its accidents weren’t present. One can imagine this sort of exchange:

Police Officer: Do you know why I stopped you?
Driver: No
PO: You ran the Stop Sign at the last intersection.
D: There’s no stop sign there.
PO: Oh yes there is. I can assure you that the substance of the Stop Sign is present even though the accidents of the Stop Sign are not present.
If He was speaking figuratively, then what did He mean? “Eat my flesh and drink my blood” was a phrase with a specific symbolic meaning, and that meaning was to kill and destroy someone. Since that meaning was specifically Scripturally established, and God does not change (Mal 3:6) there’s no way He could have been referring to that.
This is simply wrong. Simply b/c “eating” has been used as a certain figure doesn’t mean Christ would be prevented in from using “eating” in a different figure…surely you can’t be suggesting that God changes if Christ used the same word for two different figures.
No, but if you are asserting that the Catholic Church became “corrupt” at some point by “introducing” dogmata like the Real Presence, then you ***are ***asserting that God is incompetent and unable to accomplish His Will since, despite this…
No, I would be asserting that people (including early Christians) are less than perfect and possess sufficient free will to add to the original deposit of faith.
… no one would have been saved from the time of the alleged “corruption” until the “Reformation” or much much later. (Or, if people were saved, then the Reformation was pointless. Which it was.)
Why wouldn’t any have been saved? Where do scriptures or where have I asserted that a perfect understanding of the Eucharist is required for salvation? Secondly, if the Reformation served to eliminate some of those additions to the original deposit, then I don’t see it as pointless.
What is the “clean oblation/sacrifice”? If your answer is not Calvary, tell me what Old Testament sacrifice was clean and whether or not God was being praised among the Gentiles at any time during the OT. If your answer is Calvary, then tell me how Calvary can be offered in every place and at every time.
I think that you are confusing “pure” with “sufficient”. Mary offered a sacrifice as recorded in Luke 22: 24…you wouldn’t suggest that Mary offered an impure sacrifice, would you? Also, Malachi 1:11 doesn’t appear to be referring to a sin offering so it wouldn’t be referring to Christ’s sacrifice. It is more likely that Malachi 1:11 is fulfilled by the sacrafice described at Hebrews 13: 15-16: *By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is , the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased *
 
Hopefully this hasn’t been asked of protestants and fundamentalists to the point of being irritating. I have just been wondering why you don’t believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

I’m genuinely interested in feedback and do not wish to cause controversy.

🙂
I totally believe in the Real Presence. Why would you think I wouldn’t??:confused:
 
If He was speaking figuratively, then what did He mean? “Eat my flesh and drink my blood” was a phrase with a specific symbolic meaning, and that meaning was to kill and destroy someone. Since that meaning was specifically Scripturally established, and God does not change (Mal 3:6) there’s no way He could have been referring to that.
This is simply wrong. Simply b/c “eating” has been used as a certain figure doesn’t mean Christ would be prevented in from using “eating” in a different figure…surely you can’t be suggesting that God changes if Christ used the same word for two different figures.
And you are wrong as well. Why would Christ leave people second guessing as to what verbage he truly intended to use? If Christ meant it to be symbolic,he would have easily used the proper terminology describing a symbolic Eucharist. You are merely guessing and assuming Christ could have meant something different.

BTW: As of today Radical,you have yet to show me one ancient source from an orthodox Christian (first 1,000 years) teaching the RP was a heresy or false.
 
By making the comparison to Unitarianism, I meant that the “Broad Church” comprizes the more liberal, less ecclesiastical element in the Anglican ecclesial community. It embraces latitudinarianism – first established by S.T. Coleridge, who died in1858.

I would say the Unitarians who participated in the survey you reported are latitudinarian.😃
Anything goes.

Could you post that Quadrilateral again, please?

How do you decide between the three conflicting but equally valid positions in the Anglican ecclesial community?

Thanks, Jim Dandy
Let me repeat myself, from another thread, to support what you say here. As I said to you, over in the Anglican Communion thread:

*In general, you are correct, but the terms were slow in developing. In the Elizabethan period, the Elizabethan Compromise was constructed to form a a peaceful unity (enforced) between the more reformed side of developing Anglicanism, and the less so.

In dealing with this historic range of attitude and doctrine, I always stress (though not everyone listens), that the terms you used represent two slightly different and overlapping spectra. The high-low dichotomy (broad is a latter development, basically liberal, as you say) best refers to ecclesiology: churchmanship (how many candles, what sort of vestments, incense, liturgy, terminology, etc). The reformed/evangelical-Anglo-Catholic dichotomy emphasizes doctrine: Mariology, eucharistic theory, sacraments generally, attitude toward Rome, etc. The distinction is not absolute and it is not inaccurate to consider low=reformed/evangelical and high=a range of Anglo-Catholic, up to Anglo-Papal, as generally what you will find. But I find the distinction useful.

This is the historic and evolved Anglican spectrum, which existed under a general umbrella of common understanding of recognizable creedal and historical Christianity. But to it now must sadly, be added another, one that turned the broad category (without regard to ecclesiology) into what almost amounts to an 3rd dimension, indeed, a new faith; a liberalizing not only of Anglican particulars, but eating into what had been the common basis and ground underlying the old distinctions: mere Christianity. So, now one must consider, not merely what the level of churchmanship of an Anglican might be, and/or where in the doctrinal spectrum such might fall, but to what degree to they manifest historic, not Anglicanism, but Christianity. *

And, as I added, speaking to bluegoat, with respect to the addition of the term “broad” to low and high:

*Because of how the term came to be, within the CoE. It was a movement that didn’t pay much attention to the Church praxis, but that held that doctrine was flexible and not to be overly defined, interpreting Anglican formularies in a liberal sense, and avoiding dogmatism. Thus, broad and hazy, as Anglo-Catholics were high and crazy. Bishop Colenso was a fine example.

In the day, this did tend still to be in the context of a mere Christianity, but its descendants have broadened that into a comprehensive big tent. Liberal, that is. Christianity one of many paths.

Here’s a site, with a quick look:*

victorianweb.org/religion/brdchrch.html

Once you see the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral, be aware that, useful as it might be for a quick reference to a broad-brush mere Anglicanism (and some parts are problematic, even so), there is nothing that mandates it for Anglicans, nor any authority capable of doing so.

A curious historical point is that the origin of the process that led, first to the Chicago bishops’ resolution, in which the 4 points are embedded, in 1886, and then, more succinctly, in the Lambeth resolution,1888, was the idea of reunion, most particularly with the RCC. This sort of thinking led, through tortuous paths, eventually to {I]Apostolicae Curae. And the Quadrilateral also played a part in the relations in the mid 60s, between Rome and Canterbury, in the establishment of the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission.

But it doesn’t serve as a universal statement of what Anglicans do or must affirm. Though they could, sure. And many doubtless do.

Coleridge didn’t establish latitudinarianism; he was about 100 years too late. But he was associated with it.

GKC
 
And you are wrong as well. Why would Christ leave people second guessing as to what verbage he truly intended to use? If Christ meant it to be symbolic,he would have easily used the proper terminology describing a symbolic Eucharist. You are merely guessing and assuming Christ could have meant something different.

BTW: As of today Radical,you have yet to show me one ancient source from an orthodox Christian (first 1,000 years) teaching the RP was a heresy or false.
Oh my gosh, we actually agree on something!👍
 
Actually “Broad Church” is a description of Anglicanism per se. As long as we accept the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral (which I’ve quoted before but can quote yet again if you want), it’s OK. Broad Church does not equate to Unitarianism.

Being Broad Church is both a strength and weakness of Anglicanism.

A friend of mine is Unitarian, and they did a survey (anonymous responses) of the fifty or so people at her church. Three described themselves as agnostic. And, wait for it, four as…Trinitarians! The mind bogles.
As an Anglican myself, I always though of Broad church as somewhere in the middle of Low church (Scripture reading mostly and sermon, communion less frequently than weekly) and High church (all the smells and bells).

I am what I would consider Broad church.
 
Hopefully this hasn’t been asked of protestants and fundamentalists to the point of being irritating. I have just been wondering why you don’t believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

I’m genuinely interested in feedback and do not wish to cause controversy.

🙂
The assumption that none of us believe in it is irritating. Lutherans do, and some Anglicans do, and I do though I’m not formally a member of either. We generally would not use “transubstantiation” to describe it though, preferring to leave exactly how it works more of a mystery.

Protestantism is very non-monolithic, which is another thing we are often criticized for.
 
The assumption that none of us believe in it is irritating. Lutherans do, and some Anglicans do, and I do though I’m not formally a member of either. We generally would not use “transubstantiation” to describe it though, preferring to leave exactly how it works more of a mystery.

Protestantism is very non-monolithic, which is another thing we are often criticized for.
Good points.
 
I think that comparing Anglicanism to Unitarianism is pretty insulting and inaccurate. Rather like comparing Catholicism to Mormonism.

Sure three are Anglicans who believe in a symbolic understanding of the Eucharist, but Anglican liturgy, history, and theology don’t really accommodate that. It could allow for a Catholic/orthodox understanding, or a more Lutheran/spiritual understanding, but no really a symbol-only understanding.

The statistical majority of Catholics in North America think it is symbolic too, that doesn’t make it a “Catholic” position.
 
I think that comparing Anglicanism to Unitarianism is pretty insulting and inaccurate. Rather like comparing Catholicism to Mormonism.

Sure three are Anglicans who believe in a symbolic understanding of the Eucharist, but Anglican liturgy, history, and theology don’t really accommodate that. It could allow for a Catholic/orthodox understanding, or a more Lutheran/spiritual understanding, but no really a symbol-only understanding.

The statistical majority of Catholics in North America think it is symbolic too, that doesn’t make it a “Catholic” position.
I stand in solidarity with Bluegoat; it is insulting. I truly wish that instead of telling us what we believe, someone would actually bother to ask. Even the original poster’s question doesn’t ask what one believes; it asks why don’t you believe like me.
 
Thank you everyone for the interesting discussion. I especially appreciated the protestants and fundamentalists taking time to share their viewpoints. And, I’m not actually sure why I assume that you automatically don’t believe in the Real Presence.

Anyway, I glad that it didn’t turn into too much of a :slapfight: !
 
right, and I wouldn’t suggest that the Eucharist is unimportant or that it should be causually approached

possibly a student…any how, what you should do here is to take into account the likelihood that Ignatius had a Platonic philosophy as the basis for his view of reality. That would mean that he would discount what is sensed (not just the bread and the wine that is continually observed at a Eucharist, but everything that is observed) and would hold that true reality existed in the realm of ideas. With that in mind, what would Ignatius mean by saying that the Eucharist is the flesh of Jesus? Specifically, “how” was it the flesh of Jesus by way of Ignatius’ thinking? If you want to rely on Ignatius you must be able to explain the “how” of his claim and not just assume that his “how” is the same as your “how” …particularly, if you don’t share the underlying philosophy.

you have a long way to go before you will have established this claim of an apostolic origin

been there and done that with the trogon bit …see post #9 and following

I come from an anabaptist background
Anabaptist based after the 1500s the Baptist faith was founded around 1611 by John Smyth . Base their faith on John the Baptist but forget to read scripture where he says He must increase and i must decrease (John 3:30 ) Did not in tend to have millions of followers .He intended his followers to be Christs followers not his own .

Now Greek trogon teaching? I saw post 9 what is your response?
been there done that? That does not say anything , if you been their why argue in the first place? it is quote clear as to why the word change and that is to put greater emphasis on
The transubstantiation .

It is quite clear what Bishop Ignatius (student of John ) was teaching .He is speaking about the people that act as if the Eucharist is not the real body and blood of Christ . He also mention the word Catholic in his writings " Wherever Christ is there is the catholic church" (book is at work will cite the exact verses of his writings Friday night )

I have a long way? I believe I gave you enough here and certainly you were not able to refute my argument .
 
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