The Real Presence

[PJM]

**Re: The Real Presence

Posted by RADICAL**

1. My oldest and dearest friend is a good Catholic fellow who complains that twice a year (at Christmas and Easter) he has a hard time finding a seat at his church because the twice-a-year-Catholics (2YCs) show up and fill up the place. It seems to me that if the real bodily presence of the Lord (RBP) caused people who participated unworthily to get sick (as you seem to claim), and if the Catholic Eucharist actually involves a RBP (as you claim), then the emergency rooms should see a serious spike in attendees at Christmas and Easter (exactly b/c of those 2YCs…yes, some would get their acts together, but a good percentage would be unworthily participating). It would be very easy to empirically test this hypothesis and I can only wonder (with all the studies that have been done trying to improve our health care system) why such a pronounced spike hasn’t been spotted. I kinda suspect that it is b/c such a spike doesn’t exist (b/c a RBP also doesn’t exist). As a result, people are falling over at the Catholic Church to the same extent as they do at the waffle house. That would be strike two.

**The sickness is not ONLY “Real” my friend it usually is also FATAL. One Mortally wounds oneself is the message of Paul 1 Cor. 11:23-29.

Let me ask you a 3 part question my friend. 1. Could Jesus or Matthew, Mark, Luke of John [QUOTING Jesus] or Paul have been more precise; more clear or more specific in the language they choose to share this truth? 2. And IF it were not true and not understood how does one explain the practice as MANDATED by Christ from the time of the Apostles up to the present day. And a third part of the QUESTION: Why would so many including the Apostles themselves Sacrifice there very lives were this not believed?
John 6: QUOTING JESUS OUR PERFECT GOD: John from Chapter 6: 47-57

Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. I am the bread of life. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, abides in me, and I in him.”

Matthew 26: 26-28
And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

MARK 14: 22-24

And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

Luke 22: 19-21

And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

My dear friend in Christ, your position is not supported by Fact, by history, or by truth.

But God allows each of us to choose heaven or hell by applying correctly or incorrectly our Spiritual GIFTS of mind, intellect, and freewill which connect to our souls. Choose wisly friend so that you do NOT get Mortally Ill.**

God Bless you,

Either God is in charge or your in charge. Which is it to be:shrug:

Pat

 

[hn160]

Lutherans have a Communion hymn that I believe that Catholics could sing:

The Infant Priest Was Holy Born

1. The infant priest was holy born,
   For us unholy and forlorn
   From fleshly temple forth came he,
   Anointed from eternity
2. This great High Priest in human flesh
   Was icon of God’s righteousness.
   His hallowed torch brought sanctity;
   His hand removed impurity
3. The holy Lamb undaunted came
   To God’s own alter lit with flame
   While weeping angles hid their eyes,
   This Priest became a sacrifice
4. But death would not the victor be
   Of Him who hung upon the tree
   He leads us to the Holy Place
   Within the veil before god’s face
5. The veil is torn, our Priest we see,
   As at the rail on bended knee
   Our hungry mouths from Him receive,
   The bread of immortality
6. The body of God’s Lamb we eat
   A priestly food and priestly meat;
   On sin parched lips the chalice pours
   His quenching blood that life restores.
7. With cherubim and seraphim
   Our voices join the endless hymn
   And “Holy, holy, holy” sing
   To Christ, God’s Lamb, our Priest and King

 

[PJM]

=mariafransisca2;8115832]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/images/euchmn2m.jpg

http://www.miraclerosarymission.org/lancianobo.jpg

Eucharistic Miracle, Lanciano 700 AD, still preserved until now

To read about it and other eucharistic miracles
eucharisticmiracles.blogspot.com/

To see the Church of Lanciano, where the eucharistic miracle is preserved and adored
picasaweb.google.com/106736462673502686193/EucharisticMiracles

Eucharist is Jesus, body blood soul and divinity.

Awesome Job friend!

God Bless you!

Pat

 

[Telstar]

Part 2…

Let’s take a look at some quotes from St. Augustine:

"That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS." (Sermons 227)

"The Lord Jesus wanted those whose eyes were held lest they should recognize him, to recognize Him in the breaking of the bread [Luke 24:16,30-35]. The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, BECOMES CHRIST'S BODY." (Sermons 234:2)

"What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that THE BREAD IS THE BODY OF CHRIST AND THE CHALICE [WINE] THE BLOOD OF CHRIST." (Sermons 272)

FOR CHRIST WAS CARRIED IN HIS OWN HANDS, WHEN, REFERRING TO HIS OWN BODY, HE SAID: 'THIS IS MY BODY.' FOR HE CARRIED THAT BODY IN HIS HANDS." (Psalms 33:1:10)

"Was not Christ IMMOLATED only once in His very Person? In the Sacrament, nevertheless, He is IMMOLATED for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being IMMOLATED." (Letters 98:9)

"Christ is both the Priest, OFFERING Himself, and Himself the Victim. He willed that the SACRAMENTAL SIGN of this should be the daily Sacrifice of the Church, who, since the Church is His body and He the Head, learns to OFFER herself through Him." (City of God 10:20)

"By those sacrifices of the Old Law, this one Sacrifice is signified, in which there is a true remission of sins; but not only is no one forbidden to take as food the Blood of this Sacrifice, rather, all who wish to possess life are exhorted to drink thereof." (Questions on the Heptateuch 3:57)

"Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is OFFERED for them, or when alms are given in the church." (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)

"But by the prayers of the Holy Church, and by the SALVIFIC SACRIFICE, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH OBSERVES THIS PRACTICE WHICH WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE FATHERS that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the Sacrifice itself; and the Sacrifice is OFFERED also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, the works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death." (Sermons 172:2)

"...I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord's feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING." (Psalms 98:9)

Notice the very last quote when St. Augustine says “AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord’s feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING.”

Do you really think that St. Augustine is encouraging Christians at the time to adore a mere sign? Don’t you think that Augustine believed that we are to adore God and God alone? Therefore, he DID believe it to be Christ Himself and not just a sign. Granted, he did believe it to be a sign (but not the same way you do), just as the Catholic Church believes it to be a sign, but it goes deeper than that. It is not JUST a sign.

God bless you

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

 

[PJM]

By popular request [because inquiring MINDS REALLY DO WANT TO KNOW]

WHY don’t you beleive in the REal presence?

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=schaick;8130272]Why? It is possible because Catholics have been told that only priests can confect the bread and wine. As if the Holy Spirit comes only to priests. How then do mere christians get baptized that the Catholic Church accepts their baptism?

I believe in real presence in under and with the bread and wine. GOD is Spirit and Spirit gives life and that is how Jesus is present for me.

No, No my friend: Not “the Church” But God Himself has mandated such. And as a FYI it is a perfection and continuation of the use of priest in the OT.

Let me know if you’d like to know more?

God bless you,
Pat

 

[jlhargus]

Read 1 Corinthians 11. People do not get sick and die from eating bread while in grave sin. Otherwise everyone would be falling over at the waffle house. If you want a further explanation, here you go.

Have you ever seen God or otherwise percieved Him with your senses? Does that mean God does not exist? Do you trust His Word or your senses?

If I make an octagon out of steel, paint it red, and put white letters spelling “STOP” on it? What have I made? No, not a stop sign. I have made a red piece of metal with some letters on it. No one is obligated to stop before my stop sign.

This red piece of metal that says “STOP” becomes a stop sign when the Legislature passes and the Governor signs a bill that says people must stop before signs like mine. Only after their words have been said is my red piece of metal a stop sign.

The words changed the subtance of the red metal thingy into a stop sign because the government has the power to give legal effect to things. Does God have such power? Doesn’t He have the further power to give ANY effect to ANYTHING He wants?

If He was speaking figuratively, then what did He mean? “Eat my flesh and drink my blood” was a phrase with a specific symbolic meaning, and that meaning was to kill and destroy someone. Since that meaning was specifically Scripturally established, and God does not change (Mal 3:6) there’s no way He could have been referring to that.

[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 26:2[/BIBLEDRB]
(Psalm 27 in your Bible)
[BIBLEDRB]Isa 9:18-20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Isa 49:26[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Micah 3:3[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 17:6[/BIBLEDRB]

I don’t specialize in the ECFs. As a convert from Protestantism I had to reason myself into the Church using the Bible and so that is generally what I stick to. Back when we had Macs and PCs in a computer lab we had to make sure all our floppy disks (remember those?) were PC formatted because the PCs refused to read Mac disks in much the same way as Protestants refuse to read the ECFs or otherwise mangle them in a Calvin-esque fashion. So I will stick to PC-formatted disks, i.e. the Bible.

No, but if you are asserting that the Catholic Church became “corrupt” at some point by “introducing” dogmata like the Real Presence, then you ***are ***asserting that God is incompetent and unable to accomplish His Will since, despite this…

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

… no one would have been saved from the time of the alleged “corruption” until the “Reformation” or much much later. (Or, if people were saved, then the Reformation was pointless. Which it was.)

I have a better idea.

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

What is the “clean oblation/sacrifice”? If your answer is not Calvary, tell me what Old Testament sacrifice was clean and whether or not God was being praised among the Gentiles at any time during the OT. If your answer is Calvary, then tell me how Calvary can be offered in every place and at every time.

JL: Excellent:thumbsup:

 

[Radical]

Hi Radical,

Hello

Thank you for your response. Before I began responding to your thread, I decided to search for other topics that had the same discussions on Augustine and the Eucharist. I came across this thread (forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=267774&highlight=Did+Augustine+believe+in+the+Real+Presence) and have read it in its entirety. I would not give you a different reply than what Pneuma07 gave you on all the issues at hand. Instead of going in circles with the same issue that has been previously discussed in depth,…

thanks

… I wanted to present a quote from St. Augustine that I did not see discussed in that previous thread…

“…We come now to what is done in the holy prayers which you are going to hear, that with the application of the word we may have the body and blood of Christ. Take away the word, I mean, it’s just bread and wine; add the word and it’s now something else. And what is that something else? The body of Christ, and the blood of Christ. So take away the word, it’s bread and wine; add the word and it will become the sacrament.” (sermon 229.3)

My question to you is, what does the bread and wine become?

To keep it simpler, I’ll answer just wrt the bread (the wine works the same way). The bread becomes the body of Christ (with the “body of Christ” possessing the meaning that Augustine attributes to the phrase…and not what modern Catholics would attribute to the phrase.

What does St. Augustine mean by “the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ”?

I would start by pointing to the part of Sermon 272 that I provided above. There Augustine asked “How can bread be his body?” If Augustine believed that the bread somehow converted into Christ body either by way of transubstantiation, consubstantiation or an unknown method, then a description of that “how” would have followed. It doesn’t. The “how” is all about the similarity and symbolism. This is affirmed in his letter to Bonafice where he said: “For if the sacraments did not bear a certain similarity [Lat. quondam similitudinem] to those things for which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all. Therefore as the Sacrament of the Body of the Lord is in a certain way the Body of the Lord”. For Augustine the sacrament was a visible sign of the invisible reality. The bread then was a sign/sacrament of Christ’s body (but note that the contemplated body is the Church). The bread bears a similarity to Christ’s body (the Church) for the reasons that he provides.(water, fire, many grains etc.) and therefore it is an appropriate sign/sacrament. Nevertheless the bread is still a sign and not the actual body (Church), but it is legitimate to call it the body of Christ b/c of it being an appropriate sign. The change is in how the bread is understood…So Augustine said “So take away the word, it’s bread and wine; add the word and it will become the sacrament.” He would also say w/o belief it is only bread.

Doesn’t that support Transubstantiation? Since he believes them to be bread and wine and with the “holy prayers” they become the Body and Blood of Christ, isn’t that the same as Transubstantiation?

Transubstantiation describes a very specific manner of change…I don’t see anything from Augustine that begins to describe that manner of change. Remember what Augustine said in On Christian Doctrine. Eating Christ’s flesh was either literal=sinful act or figurative…Augustine just does not supply or contemplate that a third manner of eating is possible (one involving the eating of transubstantiated bread)

Also, I was wondering if you had the full text so we can examine it in its context. I have the 3 volumes of Jurgens’ “The Faith of the Early Fathers” series and I do not see that sermon on there at all.

I don’t, though I haven’t bothered to look for it. One of my peeves has been that Catholics here have tended to copy and paste a bunch of snippets from Augustine and present those snippets as establishing that Augustine held to a full blown Real bodily presence. Two of the favorites have always been Sermons 227 and 272. 272 was easy to find (and as you could tell from the other thread) it is MHO that the sermon when taken in its entirety does not support a RBP. 227 was much harder to find, but is (at the moment at least) available on the internet and again, it is MHO that the sermon when taken in its entirety does not support a RBP (I have posted some of it above and that shows some of the problems that the rest of the text presents for the RBP crowd.) I expect 229 will be exactly the same (in that regard) as 227 and 272.

Although I disagree with a lot of your points when interpreting St. Augustine, I do appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and knowledge. It’s nice to see a Protestant having knowledge of the Fathers.

Thanks!

well, thanks…tis good to be appreciated…if you can ever find 229, I would be happy to discuss it with you.

 

[PJM]

=hn160;8128361]The left over consecrated elements is kept separate containers for the sick and shut-ins or used at the next communion. Since we use a common cup and individual glass glasses ( the pastor is trying to eliminate these ), they are rinsed and the water is poured on the ground. If the consecrated elements are used in the next communion, they are always placed separately on the altar away from the non-consecrated elements to be blessed.

FYI: if memory seves ALL Eucharist vesels MUST NOW be made of unbreakle substances. This was changed about 5 years ago? BUT I di know that has been changed.

Have him check with the Diocese Liturgical Office.

Also ALL Consecrated Host must be stored in the LOCKED Reservatuion Tabernacle or consumed. ALL remaining Wine that is now the Blood of Christ MUST be consumed.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Telstar]

This is from his first sermon on Psalm 33 (34) where Augustine said:

And he was carried in his own hands. Now, brothers, who can understand how this can happen to a man? Who can be carried in his own hands? A man is able to be carried in the hands of others, but no one is carried in his own hands. How this is to be understood in a literal way of David himself we cannot discover; however, we can discover how this happened in the case of Christ. For Christ was carried in his own hands when, entrusting to us his own Body, he said: “This is my Body.” Indeed he was carrying that Body in his own hands.

Continuing with his second sermon, he clarified:

And he carried himself in his own hands: How was he carried in his own hands? Because, when he entrusted his own Body and Blood, he took into his hands that which the faithful are aware of; and he carried himself in a certain way when he said, “This is my Body.”

Augustine’s use of “certain” most certainly opens the door for the metaphorical. Jesus literally carried bread which was his body in a certain (metaphorical) way. And given the other quotes from Augustine which I am providing, it is the metaphorical that makes sense (see also Augustine’s use of “certain way” in Letter 98 below).

In his letter to Bonafice (Lettter 98) letter Augustine said:

*Frequently we speak in such a way as to say, [for example] when Easter draws near, “Tomorrow or the next day will be the Passion of the Lord”, and we say this although he suffered many years ago and although the Passion occurred once and for all. Likewise on a Sunday we say, “The Lord rose today” – even though very many years have passed since he rose. Now no one is so inept as to call us liars when we speak this way, because we are referring to these days according to the similitude they bear to those in which such events happened…Was not Christ immolated in himself once and for all? Nevertheless is he not immolated for the people in the Sacrament not only at the Paschal solemnities but every day, so that anyone who replies to a questioner that he is immolated does not lie? For if the sacraments did not bear a certain similarity [Lat. quondam similitudinem] to those things for which they are sacraments, they would not be sacraments at all. Therefore as the Sacrament of the Body of the Lord is in a certain way the Body of the Lord [Sicut ergo secundum quondam modum sacramentum corporis Christi corpus Christi est] and the Sacrament of the Blood of Christ is the Blood of Christ, so the Sacrament of the Faith is the Faith. Believing is nothing else than having faith. *

In his letter to Bonafice, Augustine again uses “certain way” when he states: “Therefore as the Sacrament of the Body of the Lord is in a certain way the Body of the Lord” Allow me to set the context in point form.

a) Augustine states it is legitimate to say that the Lord rose on every Easter Sunday (year after year) b/c of the similitude those subsequent Easter Sundays bear to the first…Christ doesn’t actually rise from the dead year after year.

b) Again b/c of the similtudes, Augustine states it is legitimate to say that the Lord is immolated every day, even though he was immolated once and for all (and isn’t actually immolated week after week).

c) Again b/c of the similtudes, the Sacrament of the Body of the Lord is in a certain way the Body of the Lord

the certain way described by Augustine is by the way of similtude, or symbolically if you prefer.
.

I believe you are are the one that’s misunderstanding what St. Augustine is saying in that letter. What he’s describing is that even though we might refer to Easter or Sunday in those ways, most people would only understand it as a ‘similitude’ because the *actual *events happened in the distant past. That’s very true. But in the Church, we continue to celebrate those events, every single day of the week, through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist at Mass, in perpetuity. By doing that, those events always remain in the present tense for us, as if they just happened, today.

The Holy Sacrifice has never ended because of what we’ve always done to follow Jesus’ instructions to, “do this in commemoration of Me”. That’s the mystery and the real purpose of the Mass. Every day, Catholic Priests all over the world continue to celebrate that Holy Sacrifice. It always has, and always will continue, until the end of time when He comes to us, again. Augustine was referring to the fact that we literally do not lie when we say that, “Tomorrow or the next day will be the Passion of the Lord”, or, “The Lord rose today”, because those events are continually repeated and celebrated, every single day of the year.

Augustine knew very well that the Eucharist was the Real Body & Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus Christ. He knew that It is our Real Spiritual Food, that nourishes our souls with sanctifying grace, and without it our souls would literally, spiritually starve to ‘death’. That’s why the Church celebrates the Mass *every *day, and not just on Sunday. If it was just a ‘symbol’ that did not have a substantial purpose other than to be a ‘reminder’ to us, there would be no real point in doing it every day of the week. Doing it once a week, or once a month, or once a year would be sufficient if it was just for ‘memorial’ purposes. The truth is, the Real Presence is the only reason that we do continue to do it daily. The Real Presence in the Eucharist is the true ‘sign’ that Jesus is always with us, and, He will never leave us alone as long as we continue celebrating the Eucharist in the Mass.

 

[PJM]

=novusCatholic;8119299]In John 6, after Jesus agressively declared that his flesh is real food and that his blood is real drink, only the Apostles believed and remained. Everyone else left because they couldn’t accept his teaching. I’ll stay with the Apostles. It’s not about numbers.

Actually I’m not positive that this is factual? Many did leave Christ; but “many” is not “ALL” …right?

Verse 60 :" Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”

In posting AS a Catholic we must use EXTREME care the words we share. Many who are not YET catholic read these post and seek opportunities to point out our disagreements as errors.

It’s also a SOLID idea to support opinions with back up evidence if you can.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

God Bless, Pat

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by TedDC
How do we know that anything actually does happen to the bread and wine?

For each of the following reasons:

1. GOOGLE 'Eucharisitic Miracles" visible evidence
2. Because jesus is God; God is Perfect; God cannot lie, God said so:thumbsup: John6:
   The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” ** So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you**; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. [55]*** For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. *** [56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood
   abides in me, and I in him.

3 Because Matt. 26: 26-28, Mk. 14:22-14, Lk. 22:19-21 and Paul 1 st. Cor.11:23-29 ALL TESTIFY that it is true.

1. The Mass was celebrtared within the lifetime of the Apostles under the then name of “Breaking of the Bread”

Acts.2: 42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. [46] And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts,”

NOTE the first “churches” were family homes because of the severe Persecution of “The Way” members.

1. ALL of the Apostles [except John because they tried and fialed] were Martyrs who gave there VERY Lives in this belief as did a GREAT Many early Popes.

Matthew 26: 26-28
And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

MARK 14: 22-24

And whilst they were eating, Jesus took bread; and blessing, broke, and gave to them, and said: Take ye. This is my body. And having taken the chalice, giving thanks, he gave it to them. And they all drank of it. And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

Luke 22: 19-21

And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

Paul 1 Cor.11: 23-29

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: [to be worthy of the privilege] and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself

1. Becuase this mandate to "Do this in Memory of Me [Luke and Paul] it was at the Last Supper with ONLY the Apostles.
2. Denial of this truth IS FACTUALLY denial of God Himself.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[hn160]

FYI: if memory seves ALL Eucharist vesels MUST NOW be made of unbreakle substances. This was changed about 5 years ago? BUT I di know that has been changed.

Have him check with the Diocese Liturgical Office.

Also ALL Consecrated Host must be stored in the LOCKED Reservatuion Tabernacle or consumed. ALL remaining Wine that is now the Blood of Christ MUST be consumed.

God Bless,
Pat

That is fine for Roman Catholics to have Locked Reservation Tabernacle but Lutherans do not have this practice. Lutherans do not know if the Body and Blood remain after the Communion Service but they are handled with respect and kept separately. Personally I think that they remain.

 

[PJM]

=hn160;8141868]That is fine for Roman Catholics to have Locked Reservation Tabernacle but Lutherans do not have this practice. Lutherans do not know if the Body and Blood remain after the Communion Service but they are handled with respect and kept separately. Personally I think that they remain.

OOPS I missed the Luthern part. SORRY;

God Bless,
Pat

 

[david_ruiz]

Sorry have not read previous posts except the intro , but came across this scripture with topic in mind .Heb. 9:24-25 “For Christ has not entered into holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true: but has entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. Not that he should offer himself often…but only once…” There is only one monstrance and that is the believer ,as uttered by an early church father. Eucharist means thanksgiving, for what has already been offered once ,for which we are to remember. The earliest church offered up no “sacrifice” or “Body and Blood” .The earliest church offered up thanksgiving,remembrance for Calvary, for His shed Body and Blood.They did not need to offer His Body and Blood again to the Father. Such tradition came gradually and later in church history,but not found in the first century.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ is not being offered up again in the bloody sacrifice. That was done at the Crucifixion.

But we as Christians continue to sin, hopefully through ordinary sin. The world, obviously, is in the power of sin. The Daily Sacrifice is the only perfect Sacrifice that Melchizedek foretold, and the Mass is offered up every hour of the day for the atonement of sins that are committed today.

David, you should get hold of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s book, ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’, and see just how profound and awesome the Mass is. We are in need of liturgical catechists…the more we understand the Mass and what it does, and how it truly covers all of creation, the more deeply people participate as intended in Vatican II.

The Mass fulfills the imagery in Rev. 22, and when we go to Mass more aware of what is happening, we are truly at the first step of heaven here on earth.

 

[KathleenGee]

PJM, thanks for your reference to the Miracle of Lanciano.

The sacraments are outer concrete realities containing the grace of Christ within. He said He would never leave us.

If we only believe in words, then we will never find God in the concrete…the Creator of this world in Jesus Christ, through which the universe was made.

The problem with words is that they are open to interpretation, can be relative, can be used by different people to mean different things.

Christ foretold the Eucharist and thus gave us the context before the Last Supper…He was most definitive…He said, ‘Do This In Memory of Me’…Jesus the fulfillment of the memorial of the Passover, and the foundation of worship.

We do not create worship. We cannot please God. We are being called by God to become righteous, to serve Him. We cannot figure out how to serve Him…

So He came to Moses and dictated to Moses worship, the temple, His mercy seat in the inner sanctuary of the Temple, where He came to reside through a cloud. The curtain was torn at the Crucifixon. God now revealed Himself, and broke the power of sin, through His Son Christ.

Jesus Christ is the foundation now of the new worship. Instead of the blood of lambs and goats, we are now nourished with His Body and Blood, offered up with Him as the only perfect sacrifice accepting to the Father.

And thus, it is in God-made worship and our participation through His Son, that we serve God. We take ordinary bread and wine, the work of our hands, and through the Epiclesis the Holy Spirit through the Minister turns the ordinary into God Himself.

All this shows that our faith must connect to the ordinary ways of life in God’s creation. We re unite with creation through Jesus Christ. If we just depend on words, and interpretations, this is a form of relativism. And relativism can take away our acknowledgment of God’s presence in the world around us.

We serve God in worship, our highest calling.

 

[PJM]

=david ruiz;8142776]Sorry have not read previous posts except the intro , but came across this scripture with topic in mind .Heb. 9:24-25 “For Christ has not entered into holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true: but has entered into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. Not that he should offer himself often…but only once…” There is only one monstrance and that is the believer ,as uttered by an early church father. Eucharist means thanksgiving, for what has already been offered once ,for which we are to remember. The earliest church offered up no “sacrifice” or “Body and Blood” .The earliest church offered up thanksgiving,remembrance for Calvary, for His shed Body and Blood.They did not need to offer His Body and Blood again to the Father. Such tradition came gradually and later in church history,but not found in the first century.

David my friend you made a bad choice. [READ Heb. 6:4-10 which addresses your decission.]

I must clarify for you what the CC actually teaches, believes and practices. You seem not to know?

Heb. 9:12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption **[24] **For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25] Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own;

*It is the Original belief and teaching of the CC That 1. Christ can and did die ONLY Once 2. That it is the actual [same] Sacrifice that is “re-presented” NOT REPRESENTED, again and again 3. That is is Really and Truly Jesus: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity: The COMPLETE JESUS 4. THat the Mass /Sacrifice is NOW in an UNBLOODY FORM 5. It is a MYSTERY that is 1. FROM God [Father] 2. Of God [the Son] and 3. By God [the Holy Spirit] for God the Trinity of which we reap the benefits. This is done through the Ordained Catholic Priest who is a SECOND Miracle is actually made into “alter Christi” [another Christ’ at the instant of the Transubstanuation caused BY GOD.

***In order for one to "be a “monstrance” [a device that holds the RP: Christ fHimself or adoration], one MUST first be able to receive Catholic Holy Communion worthily.

I hope this aids your understanding and look forward to your reply. God Bless you,
Pat

For your edification here from the Catholic catechism is our beliefs:***

Heb. 9:12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption** [24] **For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. [25] Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own;

**1362 **The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial

**1364 **In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present. “As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.”

**1366 **The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.

**1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

 

[PJM]

=KathleenGee;8144647]PJM, thanks for your reference to the Miracle of Lanciano.

The sacraments are outer concrete realities containing the grace of Christ within. He said He would never leave us.

If we only believe in words, then we will never find God in the concrete…the Creator of this world in Jesus Christ, through which the universe was made.

The problem with words is that they are open to interpretation, can be relative, can be used by different people to mean different things.

Christ foretold the Eucharist and thus gave us the context before the Last Supper…He was most definitive…He said, ‘Do This In Memory of Me’…Jesus the fulfillment of the memorial of the Passover, and the foundation of worship.

We do not create worship. We cannot please God. We are being called by God to become righteous, to serve Him. We cannot figure out how to serve Him…

So He came to Moses and dictated to Moses worship, the temple, His mercy seat in the inner sanctuary of the Temple, where He came to reside through a cloud. The curtain was torn at the Crucifixon. God now revealed Himself, and broke the power of sin, through His Son Christ.

Jesus Christ is the foundation now of the new worship. Instead of the blood of lambs and goats, we are now nourished with His Body and Blood, offered up with Him as the only perfect sacrifice accepting to the Father.

And thus, it is in God-made worship and our participation through His Son, that we serve God. We take ordinary bread and wine, the work of our hands, and through the Epiclesis the Holy Spirit through the Minister turns the ordinary into God Himself.

All this shows that our faith must connect to the ordinary ways of life in God’s creation. We re unite with creation through Jesus Christ. If we just depend on words, and interpretations, this is a form of relativism. And relativism can take away our acknowledgment of God’s presence in the world around us.

We serve God in worship, our highest calling.

Consider yourself receivng one "YOUR WECOME AND One HUGHE THANKYOU:thumbsup: God’s continued blessing my friend,
Pat

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you, PJM, and also your concrete references!!

God has never left us…only our doubting minds can remove Him.

Faith has certitude, and it is faith-- not the law, that must be written down as words!! --but faith through Christ that saves us.

If we try to hook up our faith with affirmation for our perception with words, we are still outside the life giving event of union with Christ.

Christ makes His presence known by Him drawing us to Him…not words. And if you note, Jesus had to speak in parable, and drew on ordinary life events.

Jesus Christ is an on going life event…not a religion of words…otherwise, He would have passed out literary forms affirming Him during His time on earth.