The Real Presence

[Nicea325]

The earliest church offered up thanksgiving,remembrance for Calvary, for His shed Body and Blood.They did not need to offer His Body and Blood again to the Father. Such tradition came gradually and later in church history,but not found in the first century.

Wrong! Time to read your Bible again and history. Second,you have bought a lie by Protestants who relay a distorted belief that the RCC re-sacrifices Jesus over and over. Third, Tradition commenced from the beginning,not later as you have been told or misinformed. According to your position, it would mean all of those early Christians were wrong and centuries later Protestants got it right. A far cry from the Truth.Protestanism is loaded with novel and man-made beliefs which have no scriptural or historical accuracy at all.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

A word from our sponsor;
Reveals the revealed biblical Christian faith reveals faith in the true presence of Jesus Christ unchanged in the Apostolic Catholic faith.

1 John 4: 1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, 3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

1Corinthian 2: 6 Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away…10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God…no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 14 Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15 **The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **

Hebrew 11: 1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen. 2 Because of it the ancients were well attested. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

Hebrew 10: 19 **Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary 20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,” ** 25 We should not stay away from our assembly, 13 as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.

2 Corinthian 5: 5 Now the one who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a first installment… 7** for we walk by faith, not by sight.**

Romans 10: 16 But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?” 17 **Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. **

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks (thanksgiving = Eucharistia = Eucharist). Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22
While claiming to be wise, they became fools
25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie

Paranthesis mine

peace be with you

 

[babylonsfalling]

How do we know that anything actually does happen to the bread and wine?

Well Ted…without faith, you don’t.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

babylonsfalling;8145459]Well Ted…without faith, you don’t.

Good answer; How is that children even at the age of 7 years can believe and profess in the true presence of Christ in His blessed sacrament without hesitation, and yet it only takes any faithful to profess the “Amen” when presented the body of Christ which discerns the true presence of Jesus body, blood soul and divinity.

We are called to faith by God, not to lean on our own carnal understandings, and to live on every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God “This is my body, take and eat”.

Jesus yoke is much easier and lighter to carry than to try and carry the world’s carnal understandings of the revelations of Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you

 

[david_ruiz]

Wrong! Time to read your Bible again and history. Second,you have bought a lie by Protestants who relay a distorted belief that the RCC re-sacrifices Jesus over and over. Third, Tradition commenced from the beginning,not later as you have been told or misinformed. According to your position, it would mean all of those early Christians were wrong and centuries later Protestants got it right. A far cry from the Truth.Protestanism is loaded with novel and man-made beliefs which have no scriptural or historical accuracy at all.

Understand you are not re-sacrificing ,but certainly what are the words in the Mass ? I may have implied re-sacrifice ,but did not say that . I used the word" offer" as in up to God ,as I believe the Mass states. Again, Eucharist does not imply offering anything up to God, but thanksgiving. What are the words in the Mass ? ,that might help .Again ,it may be semantics but there there is a big subtle difference in offering up thanks(eucharist) for Calvary(commemmoratively) and re-offering Him (spirit,body, blood)-commemmoratively. Anyways,I am not saying you are re crucifying Him.but you are offering again and again to God “The Sacrifice”.It is like an old testament rabbi offering to God the same animal to God every time ,except it was only killed once but still refers to it every time. Like "Lord remember that perfect lamb we sacrificed yesterday ? Well we offer it up to you again, in memorial .But even more so Lord ,we believe you make the old slain lamb “fresh”. " I believe Hebrews shows we do not need to offer ANYTHING Mediating to the Father .It has been done. Like the Father is telling the rabbi, “Don’t bother offering it back up to me for indeed I offered it for you.I gave you my Son! But give me thanks (eucharist) for it, yes as often as you can” .For that it does not need to be “fresh” or transubstantiated ,except spiritually ,back to the original .I just believe we must believe that His full body, spirit and soul and Precious blood were shed on Calvary for us .It is not necessary to believe that for what is re -presented. That is our debate,isn’t it .At least we are in agreement what took place at Calvary ,and we memorialize it and give thanks for it but quite differently.

 

[david_ruiz]

***In order for one to "be a “monstrance” [a device that holds the RP: Christ fHimself or adoration], one MUST first be able to receive Catholic Holy Communion worthily.

---

 

[david_ruiz]

Christ is not being offered up again in the bloody sacrifice. That was done at the Crucifixion.

But we as Christians continue to sin, hopefully through ordinary sin. The world, obviously, is in the power of sin. The Daily Sacrifice is the only perfect Sacrifice that Melchizedek foretold, and the Mass is offered up every hour of the day for the atonement of sins that are committed today.

David, you should get hold of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger’s book, ‘Spirit of the Liturgy’, and see just how profound and awesome the Mass is. We are in need of liturgical catechists…the more we understand the Mass and what it does, and how it truly covers all of creation, the more deeply people participate as intended in Vatican II.

The Mass fulfills the imagery in Rev. 22, and when we go to Mass more aware of what is happening, we are truly at the first step of heaven here on earth.

Thank you ,but find it too old testament (continual offering ,thru priests ) .I believe we are all priests and indeed His Precious Blood covers past, present and future sins , to those who are poor in spirit and call for His Covering ,call for his renewal ,of our minds and spirits.This can be done alone or with other saints .This can be done in simple conversation ,communion with Him,as well as deep fasting and prayer ,and as you state somewhat ,in the eucharistic breaking of bread with fellow saints. Melchizadek -Jesus is in heaven as Hebrews 9: 25 states ,hence no need for daily sacrifice, for He (Jesus) is before God, for us

 

[david_ruiz]

We are called to faith by God, not to lean on our own carnal understandings, and to live on every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God “This is my body, take and eat”.

Hi Gabe Indeed ,what is carnal and what is truth ? It was the carnal, unbelieving souls that that thought they had to eat his body and drink his blood. The spiritually ignorant took His words literally ,and missed the bigger picture in John 6

 

[KathleenGee]

David…thanks for your acknowledgement…I just gave you beginning part…worked 3 nights…

Gabriel…thanks for all your (name removed by moderator)ut…

Good night…I will keep all in prayer tonight on this thread…

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

david ruiz;8147265]Hi Gabe Indeed ,what is carnal and what is truth ? It was the carnal, unbelieving souls that that thought they had to eat his body and drink his blood. The spiritually ignorant took His words literally ,and missed the bigger picture in John 6

Greetings david; Interesting observation david, can you explain the “bigger picture in John 6” here? between what is believed by carnal standards and what is believed by the revelation of the Spirit?

Can you reveal from scripture when the spirit is to be taken symbolically or metaphorically?

Jesus states “you must eat my flesh and drink my blood in order to have eternal life” and repeats this at least 5 times in his bread of life discourse from John 6 with the Amen, Amen or Truly Truly attached to His faithful consuming His flesh and blood. Do you have support from historical writings or faithful witnesses of Jesus from antiquity to support a claim that Jesus was speaking symbolically? Please provide one here.

The unbelievers took Jesus to mean litterally eat His raw flesh and blood, the unbelievers also realized that Jesus was never speaking about consuming His flesh and blood in symbolic or metaphorical language. So what was Jesus revealing then?

Jesus revealed this teaching of eating his flesh and blood in spiritual (eternal) terms describing spiritual realities. Jesus has revealed to the Church this consuming of the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, which is the fulfillment of the perpetual celebration of the passover which included by God’s law the consuming of the lamb so that death will passover the chosen, the Church calls this visible sign instituted by Jesus Christ that gives grace to the believer, the blessed sacrament.

This teaching from Jesus from John 6 removes all doubt from a literal raw carnal flesh and blood false interpretation,

Jesus removes all doubt of any symbolic Jesus or metaphorical understanding of His true flesh and blood ever being consumed because a symbolic Jesus does not exist in Christianity.

Jesus spoke in spiritual (eternal) terms describing spiritual realities regarding His true presence in His flesh and blood to be consumed sacra mentally, which His flesh and blood are truly present according to His Word, Jesus is Truth and the faithful Catholics worship the Father in Spirit and Truth, never in spirit with a symbolic Jesus?

The veil is lifted so that the Catholic faithful can enter the sanctuary of the Holy of Ho-lies in the heavenly Jerusalem on Mt. Zion, for no one can go before the Father except through Jesus.

The following scripture gives great detail of the Catholic Mass celebrated since apostolic biblical times unchanged today with the True presence of Jesus flesh, blood soul and divinity celebrated in every Mass in every age “once and for ALL”.

Hebrews 10:19
9 Therefore, brothers, **since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary 20
10 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, **21
11 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,”
22
**let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience 12 and our bodies washed in pure water. **23
Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope, for he who made the promise is trustworthy.

Hebrews 12:22 … **you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
23
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,
24
and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood **that speaks more eloquently 7 than that of Abel.

Can you describe to me david how you are able to enter heavens sanctuary with a symbolic Jesus? How can you enter the Holy of Ho-lies in worship? Without the true presence of Jesus flesh and blood as revealed by the biblical (Christian) Hebrews.

I don’t think grape juice or a cracker to symbolize Jesus is gonna take you before the Father in heaven.

**John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. **

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

David…thanks for your acknowledgement…I just gave you beginning part…worked 3 nights…

Gabriel…thanks for all your (name removed by moderator)ut…

Good night…I will keep all in prayer tonight on this thread…

Blessings to you KathleenGee

 

[KathleenGee]

Gabe…good follow up post.

The Church itself is the Mystical Body of Christ.

We are called to live not by sight but by faith. We make an act of faith, that although we see bread and wine, we know that the inner reality is the Soul, Divinity, Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, in response to ‘Do This in Memory of Me’…

The greater reality of life is not the physical, but the spirituality reality, according to believers because without God’s will, we would simply cease to exist.

The spiritual, mystical reality is greater than what we see with our eyes…and it is the Word Made Flesh. And our service to God is indeed our worship, our righteousness found in Jesus Christ for the atonement of sin.

The form of worship is now reconciliation at the banquet table, the breaking of bread, the fulfillment of the Passover. We are being called to reconcile all the time by Christ to be one in His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, not in doctrine or words.

 

[Radical]

I believe you are are the one that’s misunderstanding what St. Augustine is saying in that letter.

no surprises there

What he’s describing is that even though we might refer to Easter or Sunday in those ways, most people would only understand it as a ‘similitude’ because the *actual *events happened in the distant past. That’s very true. But in the Church, we continue to celebrate those events, every single day of the week, through the celebration of the Holy Eucharist at Mass, in perpetuity. By doing that, those events always remain in the present tense for us, as if they just happened, today.

Augustine doesn’t refer to the understanding of “most people”, but refers to what he and other Christians do b/c of the “likeness” and b/c historical events are sacramentally celebrated year after year/ day after day

The Holy Sacrifice has never ended because of what we’ve always done to follow Jesus’ instructions to, “do this in commemoration of Me”.

Augustine said, “…although it really took place long before, it is on that day sacramentally celebrated.” That is far from claiming that the sacrifice has never ended…in fact it is a distinction between the real sacrifice of long ago and the present celebration of it.

That’s the mystery and the real purpose of the Mass. Every day, Catholic Priests all over the world continue to celebrate that Holy Sacrifice. It always has, and always will continue, until the end of time when He comes to us, again. Augustine was referring to the fact that we literally do not lie when we say that, “Tomorrow or the next day will be the Passion of the Lord”, or, “The Lord rose today”, because those events are continually repeated and celebrated, every single day of the year.

you might be missing the issue that Augustine was trying to address. Boniface was concerned about deceit. Parents, at the baptism of an infant verbally represented that the infant had faith, even though the infant did not have to ability to possess faith. Boniface was concerned that this was a flat out lie. Augustine attempted to justify that (mis)representation by explaining how Sacraments worked. His answer can be summarized as:

a) On every Good Friday we say that Christ suffers, even though he suffered once for all time many years ago (…and not that he continues to suffer and die until the end of time)

b) On every Easter Sunday we say that Christ rises from the dead, even though he rose only once many years ago (…and not that he continues to rise from the dead until the end of time)

c) we say (a) and (b) b/c of the “likeness” that exists between the original day and the subsequent days and no one would foolishly nit-pick and call us liars for saying (a) and (b) b/c the events are sacramently celebrated on those days. (…and not that the event is repeated every day of the year).

d) we can truly say that Christ is offered as a sacrifice every day, even though he was offered as a sacrifice only once many years ago

e) sacraments (signs) bear a resemblance to the things they point to

f) b/c of that resemblance (no mention of it being b/c of a real bodily presence) sacraments are, in a certain manner, the thing they point to (…again, if there is any doubt on this, refer to Augustine’s the “how” of Augustine’s sermon 272 and again, it is “in a certain manner” and not that they are really the thing that they point to)

Therefore, every Good Friday is, in a certain manner, the date of Jesus’ death, every Easter Sunday is, in a certain manner, the date of Jesus’ resurrection, and every day is, in a certain manner, the date of Jesus’ sacrifice. None of these events is described as still continuing. Further, Augustine’s view does not rest on the modern understanding that the sacrifice is re-presented/ made present at the Eucharist…it has to do with having “points of real resemblance”. From there Augustine goes on to justify the respresentation about the infant possessing faith:

g) b/c sacraments are, in a certain manner, the thing they point to, an infant that receives the sacrament of faith, in certain way possesses faith even though the infant is not yet a believer in the sense of having that faith which includes the consenting will of those who exercise it, and

h) therefore, the parents aren’t lying.

note how Augustine, in making his arguments, does not distinguish between how it works with the Eucharist and how it works with the other Sacraments. Specifcally, he does not say that it works wrt the Eucharist b/c a real bodily presence is involved or that a never ending sacriifce is involved and that it works wrt the other sacraments for different reasons. ** In fact, if a real bodily presence was involved in the Eucharist, then his argument would be negated **, b/c after all, if there was that sort of difference between the sacraments then one coud not properly argue from one (the Eucharist with a real bodily presence) to the other (baptism with no RBP). You should also note that (b/c Augustine is trying to justify the practice of parents stating something that is obviously impossible) he is forced to claim as much for the sacraments as he possibly can.

If it was just a ‘symbol’ that did not have a substantial purpose other than to be a ‘reminder’ to us, there would be no real point in doing it every day of the week. Doing it once a week, or once a month, or once a year would be sufficient if it was just for ‘memorial’ purposes.

Augustine would agree…but a real bodily presence is not required for a important purpose and so he wouldn’t agree with this:

The truth is, the Real Presence is the only reason that we do continue to do it daily.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabe…good follow up post.

The Church itself is the Mystical Body of Christ.

We are called to live not by sight but by faith. We make an act of faith, that although we see bread and wine, we know that the inner reality is the Soul, Divinity, Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, in response to ‘Do This in Memory of Me’…

The greater reality of life is not the physical, but the spirituality reality, according to believers because without God’s will, we would simply cease to exist.

The spiritual, mystical reality is greater than what we see with our eyes…and it is the Word Made Flesh. And our service to God is indeed our worship, our righteousness found in Jesus Christ for the atonement of sin.

The form of worship is now reconciliation at the banquet table, the breaking of bread, the fulfillment of the Passover. We are being called to reconcile all the time by Christ to be one in His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, not in doctrine or words.

I concur KathleenGee; As Jesus states when He concludes His bread of life discourse from John 6; “That it is the Spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail”.

The Catholic Church is wise in helping the intellectual begin a life of faith when she defines, by the Word of God the bread and wine are Transubstantiated into the body blood soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, while to our our senses (flesh) they appear as wine and bread which is of no avail, but to our soul in order to live eternally these species become the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus, for it is here when the Spirit gives us life.

In this communion with between our humanity united with His divinity is when the scriptures are being lived out according to **2 Peter 1:4 **Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them **you may come to share in the divine nature, **

Only a true presence of Jesus body and blood can one come to share in the divine nature. A symbolic presence can never achieve this and a symbolic Jesus contradicts many of the scriptures.

 

[KathleenGee]

Precisely so in regards to the symbolic—which is open to misunderstanding and countless intepretations…

When we use symbolism, we then are returning to the veil…this time the veil of language.

One cannot use only one theologian of the Church to invalidate the 2,000 year old belief and practice of the Catholic Church…and the Apostles who baptized entire households. St. Augustine certainly believed in the Eucharist, but was in the same types of question seeking integrity of practice of faith that every bishop encounters in his service.

Scripture does not why entire households were baptized, but gives this as an event…

Because Jesus Christ is an event in history that continues through today and into eternity…one heart at a time.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

david ruiz;8147096]Understand you are not re-sacrificing ,but certainly what are the words in the Mass ? I may have implied re-sacrifice ,but did not say that . I used the word" offer" as in up to God ,as I believe the Mass states. Again, Eucharist does not imply offering anything up to God, but thanksgiving. What are the words in the Mass ? ,that might help .Again ,it may be semantics but there there is a big subtle difference in offering up thanks(eucharist) for Calvary(commemmoratively) and re-offering Him (spirit,body, blood)-commemmoratively.

How can one repeat something that which is eternal? There is never any re-offering or re-sacrificing in the sacred Liturgy of the Mass.

Jesus resurrected from the dead, ascended into heaven, Jesus lives, God is Omnipresent, His presence can never be repeated, God Is the IAM WHO AM. You have been misinformed about the Last Supper Liturgy.

The only time God repeated Himself in all of history is when Jesus repeats over and over “you must eat my flesh and drink my blood in order to have eternal life” when His own did not accept His teachings.

The Mass is the celebrated reality that Jesus taught us to pray when heaven and earth, the divine with our humanity become one in Jesus Christ; “thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this (original text supernatural) bread our daily bread”…

The Father in heaven never tires of saying to his Church “I love you” in the Mass.

The Mass is a mystery that goes way way beyond any carnal understanding of a repetitious undertaking. The “do this in rememberance of me”, does not mean repeat this in order to remember me. It translates, I make you now priests to do this breaking of bread, so that when you do this I am present with you sacramentally in the bread and wine which become my body and blood for your souls to consume so that you are in communion with me, just as I am one in the Father from eternity. Here is scriptural proof aftter Jesus resurrected from the dead,

Luke 24;30
And it happened that, **while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, 35
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. **

The Mass never ceased since the last supper;

Acts 2:42 **They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. **

 

[PJM]

A word from our sponsor;
Reveals the revealed biblical Christian faith reveals faith in the true presence of Jesus Christ unchanged in the Apostolic Catholic faith.

1 John 4: 1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 **This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, **3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.

1Corinthian 2: 6 Yet we do speak a wisdom to those who are mature, but not a wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age who are passing away…10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God…no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 14 Now the natural person 8 does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15 **The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **

Hebrew 11: 1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen. 2 Because of it the ancients were well attested. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

Hebrew 10: 19 Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary 20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have “a great priest over the house of God,” 25 We should not stay away from our assembly, 13 as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.

2 Corinthian 5: 5 Now the one who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a first installment… 7** for we walk by faith, not by sight.**

Romans 10: 16 But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?” 17 **Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. **

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
20
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
21
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks (thanksgiving = Eucharistia = Eucharist). Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22
While claiming to be wise, they became fools
25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie

Paranthesis mine

peace be with you

Well Done! Thank you!

 

[Nicea325]

Understand you are not re-sacrificing ,but certainly what are the words in the Mass ? I may have implied re-sacrifice ,but did not say that . I used the word" offer" as in up to God ,as I believe the Mass states. Again, Eucharist does not imply offering anything up to God, but thanksgiving. What are the words in the Mass ? ,that might help .Again ,it may be semantics but there there is a big subtle difference in offering up thanks(eucharist) for Calvary(commemmoratively) and re-offering Him (spirit,body, blood)-commemmoratively. Anyways,I am not saying you are re crucifying Him.but you are offering again and again to God “The Sacrifice”.It is like an old testament rabbi offering to God the same animal to God every time ,except it was only killed once but still refers to it every time. Like "Lord remember that perfect lamb we sacrificed yesterday ? Well we offer it up to you again, in memorial .But even more so Lord ,we believe you make the old slain lamb “fresh”. " I believe Hebrews shows we do not need to offer ANYTHING Mediating to the Father .It has been done. Like the Father is telling the rabbi, “Don’t bother offering it back up to me for indeed I offered it for you.I gave you my Son! But give me thanks (eucharist) for it, yes as often as you can” .For that it does not need to be “fresh” or transubstantiated ,except spiritually ,back to the original .I just believe we must believe that His full body, spirit and soul and Precious blood were shed on Calvary for us .It is not necessary to believe that for what is re -presented. That is our debate,isn’t it .At least we are in agreement what took place at Calvary ,and we memorialize it and give thanks for it but quite differently.

Blessings David. I understand and respect your positions and beliefs. However, as Catholics we hold a different belief and I wanted to clarify any misunderstandings that we as Catholics are some how re-sacrificing Jesus over and over. Again…we are NOT!

Peace

 

[babylonsfalling]

Hi Gabe Indeed ,what is carnal and what is truth ? It was the carnal, unbelieving souls that that thought they had to eat his body and drink his blood. The spiritually ignorant took His words literally ,and missed the bigger picture in John 6

Actually Dave, the ignorance here is in the notion that you can DIS interpret the truth out of Scripture, and get people to believe your DIS interpretation merely to serve your UN-Biblical religion.

There’s nothing in John 6 about people MISTAKENLY believing in the literal interpretation of what Christ was saying. The mistake was NOT believing in the literal interpretation of Christs Words…you perverted Scripture and turned it upside-down in preference of your religious teachings.

If you were honestly interpreting John 6, you’d be telling us that Christ was telling people that his flesh and blood were REAL food and drink…not symbolic food and drink. The spiritually ignorant didn’t get it and argued with Him…like you’re doing now Dave. When they argued with Him, Christ could have easily clarified and said…“Well guys, I was speaking symbolically and you should have known I meant it that way.”

John 6

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven:<—LIVING bread Dave…not symbolic bread if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?<—This is where the unbelievers started having trouble Dave.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.<—If Christ were speaking symbolically this is where Christ WOULD have clarified that he was speaking symbolically Dave.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.<—This is where Christ becomes more insistent about eating His flesh and drinking His blood Dave. It’s also a second place where He would have clarified that He was speaking symbolically…IF he were speaking that way.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.<—This is where He doubles up on His insistence on Real Presence Dave, and it’s a third place where He would have said that He was speaking of symbolic meat and drink. Instead, Christ says that His flesh and blood is meat and drink INDEED, not meat and drink symbolically. Why is Christ so insistent Dave? Why doesn’t He just use one little work (symbolic) to eliminate all the confusion?
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it?<—Ask yourself this question Dave. Forget what your religion teaches…listen to Christ.
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and WALK NO MORE WITH HIM. <—Have faith in Christ’s own words, walk with faith in Christ, not faith in your religious teachings.

This is an old argument Dave. Christ was the first One to argue for Real Presence.

 

[Nicea325]

Actually Dave, the ignorance here is in the notion that you can DIS interpret the truth out of Scripture, and get people to believe your DIS interpretation merely to serve your UN-Biblical religion.

There’s nothing in John 6 about people MISTAKENLY believing in the literal interpretation of what Christ was saying. The mistake was NOT believing in the literal interpretation of Christs Words…you perverted Scripture and turned it upside-down in preference of your religious teachings.

If you were honestly interpreting John 6, you’d be telling us that Christ was telling people that his flesh and blood were REAL food and drink…not symbolic food and drink. The spiritually ignorant didn’t get it and argued with Him…like you’re doing now Dave. When they argued with Him, Christ could have easily clarified and said…“Well guys, I was speaking symbolically and you should have known I meant it that way.”

This is an old argument Dave. Christ was the first One to argue for Real Presence.

Amen! My question is,if Jesus meant it to be symbolic,why did he beat around the bush and not come out and say it? Second, Jesus easy could have easily used terminology stating it was symbolic. Why leave people guessing as to what he meant? Third, or did the Gospel writer misunderstand and use poor terminology?