The Real Presence

[Gabriel_of_12]

david ruiz;.We went from we are all now priests unto God ,to a special priestly class to consumate this offering , that is found nowhere in the new testament

.

Sure it is; Apostles, bishops, priests =presbyters and deacons are all recorded in the New testament. We the laity in the body of Christ are of His royal priesthood, and because we partake of His divine nature “Truly” sacramentally, in Jesus we are all made royal priests who celebrate in the offering of this once and for all “eternal” sacrifice to the Father in heaven with the body of Christ (His Catholic Church) both on earth and in heaven with the festal of angels. Jesus commanded his apostles to “do this” and when he breathed on them after the resurrection, Jesus gave them all power to forgive sins and baptise. Jesus did not give this ministery of reconciliation to the laity, Jesus breathed upon Peter and the apostles, only they can hand down this priestly ministry who are called by God.

1Cor. 4:1
Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2Cor.5:18
12 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,

.Bottom line - for an institution to gain control ( because of rival patriarchs, division, a collapsing political, social system, - real problems ), the" real presence" is a must, for then it legitimizes the need for a priestly class over lay people , as the pope legitimizes rule organizationally. This may seem harsh , but I believe it is part of the puzzle. Again , there definitely were new challenges. However the Church could have continued in the same fashion as during apostolic times :equality in ministries and saints ,and reliance on the Holy Spirit as Vicar of Christ…Thank-you for letting me speak so frankly. You are gracious hosts.

Never mind what you falsely interpret today what Jesus established 2000 years ago, His church Jesus built upon Peter and His apostles who continue to be persecuted in their apostolic successors in the Popes and bishops world wide as Jesus was persecuted. Here is Jesus speaking;

Matthew 16:17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
**I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

The Catholic popes have an unbroken apostolic succession to Peter.

Peter is the only apostle Jesus gave commands to tend His flock on earth until He returns. The Popes who are the unbroken apostolic successors to Peter continue to tend the flock Jesus entrusted to Peter alone before Jesus ascended into heaven.

John 21:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Feed my lambs.” **16
He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Tend my sheep.” **17
He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” **(Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep. **

Now if your complaining because Jesus promised Peter that the gates of hell will come against Him and His Church and the reprecussions from history, know this! the gates of hell have never and will not ever prevail against the Catholic Church which is the mystical body of Christ. Amen

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Radical
may I suggest that you spread your wings a bit and also employ some other leading authorities on Augustine’s Eucharistic views…their names are van der Meer (biographer), Wills (biographer) and Kilmartin (specialist in the history of Eucharist theology).

.

Leading authorities? Who says they are leading authorities? You? They themselves?
And I suggest you open your mind and eyes,because there exist many other ECF’s who also teach the RP of the Eucharist. There lies the problem with your entire argument and premise. You base your entire belief and argument on merely three people living centuries later. You believe as though those three people know more than anyone else,which frankly is absurd,especially the ECF’s who knew themselves and their works.

BTW: If those three people know more about the Eucharist than Augustine himself, I am curious to know why not ONE has shown where Augustine clearly teaches the RP is heretical,false,novel and flat out a usurpation of Christ? Hhhhhmmm?

I am still waiting for you to show me where Augustine explicitly says the RP is heretical?

 

[Nicea325]

That’s the problem between you and I. I would rather learn from St.Augustine himself regarding his faith about the Eucharist, not another person’s opinion. For me St. Augustine is clear on the True presence of Jesus body and blood in His Eucharist. Trying to learn the mindset of this great theologian about his Catholic faith in the Eucharist from another persons opinion is the problem your having understanding ST.Augustines Catholic faith.

Comparing his apologetic works and trying to twist them with his Catholic faith is the problem your seeing from another persons opinion. I learned from other opinions of St.Augustine are always trying to justify his complex thinking and writings, by grouping them thinking to make them apply to current thinking and philosophical understanding of the date pretending to think they solved his mystical writings from their opinions, becomes only an opinion. I prefer the facts.

For myself, I take each writing and each teaching of his individually, and more times than others one cannot zero in on this great theologian, because sometimes he runs the risk of border line heretic, but his Catholic faith keeps him grounded on the Rock of Peter.

My point is, no one cannot refute that St. Augustine remained in good standing with the Catholic Church and was canonized a Catholic saint. To twist his Catholic teachings on the Eucharist as an unbeliever of the true presence, only reveals a serpent at work.

Breaking down words from his writings does not relate to his Catholic faith, when St.Augustine is clear that the body and blood are truly present in the Eucharist.

Iam amazed how protestants miss this? Augustine is a Catholic Saint who practiced and taught his Catholic faith.

**St. Jerome was one of St. Augustines contemporaries and they battled theologically. St. Jerome never battled anyone with such a Catholic faith as St. Augustine. Do you think St. Jerome who was a staunch Roman Catholic would of exposed St. Augustine had he doubted the Catholic faith regarding the true presence of Jesus body and blood?

For the record St. Jerome went as far as teaching to “venerate the chalice and ciborium” which contained the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Had St. Augustine doubted the true presence, ST. Jerome would of floored St.Augustine on this blessed sacarment.** IT DID NOT HAPPEN. St.Augustine is a Roman Catholic who taught the true presence of Jesus body and blood in the Eucharist mystically at times, but opinions who doubt his Catholic faith are reaching for things that are never there in St.Augustines Catholic faith.

Instead of gazing at opinons from afar, try reading St. Augustines contemporaries who knew him and talked with him, such as other Catholic saints and popes. From these contemporaries of ST. Augustine have me convinced as well as St. Augustine himself that he believed in the True presence of Jesus body and blood in the Eucharist.

Trusting the Early Church Fathers one cannot go wrong.

Peace be with you

Exactly! I challenged Radical to present me any writing from Augustine where he clear teaches the RP is heretical and false. As of today,Radical has not present one single sentence from Augustine’s great works clearly tellings us nearly 1700 years later that the RP is truly false.

Also it is true what you stated,if Augustine taught a symolic Eucharist,where are the writings from ANYONE rebuking him?

 

[PJM]

While not quite in the format you demand: DNA test have been run on MANY EM’s over a period of many hundreds of years … Posted by PJM

REPLY [guess who]
aaarrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhh! DNA tests haven’t existed for hundreds of years. Blood type tests (also not around for hundreds of years), are not, repeat are not DNA tests. This is the problem with the Catholic claims regarding the miraculous that circulate on the internet…it is unsubstantiated bad information heaped upon more of the same.

THANKS! I knew that. The DNA test have been run since the introduction of DNA test, and this is made possible BECAUSE THE EVIDENCE STILL REMAINS after in some cases MANY hundreds of years.

Sorry about getting your temper up my friend

Catholic Miracles are not siply “claimed” they are PROVEN and provide the evidence of there claim.

God Bless you,

 

[david_ruiz]

.

No, No david you put the cart before the horse here. Baptism saves you now?

.No .you put the cart before the horse when you say baptism saves you , that it is effectual …Show me an instance where one person is water baptized, and he then becomes born -again ,regenerated ,sees the light , sees all things new, etc .Show me one church father before 133 a.d. that says concretely the horse is water baptism. Just as Noah was saved BEFORE the WATERS, by faith (Heb 11:7), we are saved before baptism , and at baptism we confess it , giving us the clean conscience- Again -for being obedient to His word. It is indisputable many saints are one with Christ without RP, as many are truly born again ,without water baptism.

 

[Nicea325]

.No .you put the cart before the horse when you say baptism saves you , that it is effectual …Show me an instance where one person is water baptized, and he then becomes born -again ,regenerated ,sees the light , sees all things new, etc .Show me one church father before 133 a.d. that says concretely the horse is water baptism. Just as Noah was saved BEFORE the WATERS, by faith (Heb 11:7), we are saved before baptism , and at baptism we confess it , giving us the clean conscience- Again -for being obedient to His word. It is indisputable many saints are one with Christ without RP, as many are truly born again ,without water baptism.

Yes many are saved without water baptism (aka people dying for the faith,martyrs death,etc). However, is that the only means of attaining salvation through faith-only?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

david ruiz;8161978].No .you put the cart before the horse when you say baptism saves you , that it is effectual …Show me an instance where one person is water baptized, and he then becomes born -again ,regenerated ,sees the light , sees all things new, etc .Show me one church father before 133 a.d. that says concretely the horse is water baptism

.

Ok;
Ezekiel 36:25** I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities**, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 **I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, **taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. 27 **I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. 29 I will save you from all your impurities; **

Titus 3:5
… not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, **he saved us through the bath of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the holy Spirit. **

**Mk 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. **

Acts 16:30
Then he brought them out and said, **“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” **31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.”
32
So they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house.
33
He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then **he and all his family were baptized at once. **

1 Pet 3:20-21 God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured** baptism, which saves you now. **

Col 2:12
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Romans 6: 3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. 5 For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. 7 For a dead person has been absolved from sin. 8 If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him.
11 Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. 14 **For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace. **

Gal 3:25-27
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. **For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. **

The Didache (Syria, 70-110) (Ch 7)
Regarding baptism, baptize thus. After giving the foregoing instructions, “Baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19) in running water. But, if you have no running water, baptize in any other; and if you cannot in cold water, then in warm. But, if the one is lacking, pour the other three times on the head “in the name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit.”

Justin (Martyr) (Rome, 100-165), First Apology, Ch. 61
They (those to be baptized) then are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, **and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water … The reason for this we have received from the Apostles. **

St.Irenaeus and St. Ignatius also teach baptism saves before 130 a.d their apology is to long to list here, let me know if you want them.

Cyprian (Carthage, 200-258): Letters, No. 69:12
You have asked … whether they are to accounted legitimate Christians, for that they are not to be washed, but sprinkled, with the saving water. … I think that the divine benefits can in no respect be mutilated and weakened; nor can anything less occur in that case where, with full and entire faith both of the giver and receiver, is accepted what is drawn from the divine gifts … it ought not to trouble any one that sick people seem to be sprinkled or effused, when they obtain the Lord’s grace.

cont.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont.
You place the cart before the horse because in scripture there are two sacraments being administered by the apostles one the sacrament of baptism and the sacrament of confirmation which is adminstered by laying on of hands here is biblical proof.

Acts 8:14
Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
15
who went down and prayed for them,** that they might receive the holy Spirit,
16
for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 5
17
Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit. **

Acts 19:1
1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came (down) to Ephesus where he found some disciples.
2
**He said to them, “Did you receive the holy Spirit when you became believers?” They answered him, “We have never even heard that there is a holy Spirit.” **3
He said, **“How were you baptized?” They replied, “With the baptism of John.” **4
Paul then said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5
**When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. **6
**And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. **

All of above is what the Catholic church has been practicing these past 2000 years unchanged. It begins by Jesus breathing upon the apostles and at pentecost and handing down the ministery of reconciliation to the Catholic Church who never ceases to baptise and forgive sins.

P.S their is mountains of evidence that baptism saves by eyewitnesses and early church fathers including St.Augustine. But you only asked before 130 a.d

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Exactly! I challenged Radical to present me any writing from Augustine where he clear teaches the RP is heretical and false. As of today,Radical has not present one single sentence from Augustine’s great works clearly tellings us nearly 1700 years later that the RP is truly false.

Also it is true what you stated,if Augustine taught a symolic Eucharist,where are the writings from ANYONE rebuking him?

It was St.Ambrose who taught and baptised St.Augustine.

Here is St.Ambrose "Now as often as we receive the Sacramental Elements, which by the mysterious efficacy of holy prayer are transformed into the Flesh and Blood, 'do show the Lord’s Death (1Cor.11:26) (To Gratian, on the Christian Faith, bk. 4 Chap. 10).

St.Augustine was a convert to Catholicism during St. Jerome’s time. St.Jerome was feared by heretics and revered by Jews who went to him for Hebrew interpretations of the scriptures. St.Jerome debated this new convert St.Augustine and was humbled by him. Because St. Augustine being a pagan intellectual, took his Catholic faith to new heights taking his philosophical training and experience and converted them to Christianity. This combination is what baffles his readers from afar. St. Jerome knew St.Augustine and would of jumped at the occasion to label Augustine as a heretic and expose this new convert had he displayed any doubt regarding the true presence of Jesus in His Eucharist.

St.Augustine being a student of St. Ambrose elevated his Catholic faith which included Eastern philosophy, mixed with Greek philosophy now converted to a Western philosophy thinking. St. Augustine combines all of the above making his writings and apologies very mystical. St. Jerome himself understood St.Augustine’s thinking on the intellectual side because St. Jerome himself knew the Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew languages and translated all the scriptures containing these languages into one the “Vulgate” or Latin common language.

So if St. Augustine got a green light from a heavy weight such as St. Jerome who left no heretics standing, confirms St.Augustine orthodox Catholic faith in the Eucharist, who went on to become a Catholic bishop of Hippo.

 

[david_ruiz]

.

Ok;
[Ezekiel 36:25** I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities

, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 **I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, **taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. 27 **I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. 29 I will save you from all your impurities; **
Sprinkling is not baptism .The Word of God is sometimes referred to as washing .This is clean water (not a criteria for the sacrament). This is stretch to say it is Christian baptism. Indeed He cleanses us.

Titus 3:5
… not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth (baptism) and renewal by the holy Spirit.

Mine says nothing of baptism -"By the washing of regeneration."Regeneration washes us , washing does not regenerate in this scripture.

Mk 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

.
and he that believeth not is damned" .It does not say, " he that believeth not and is not baptized is damned".Belief is the key ,not baptism . If you believe you will be baptized. But you can not believe unless you are already born again.
Acts 16:30

Then he brought them out and said, **“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” **31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved.”
32

See, belief comes first-pure grace
S

o they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house.
33
He took them in at that hour of the night and bathed their wounds; then he and all his family were baptized at once. It was not his family but his household. They were baptized because they believed in the Lord as Messiah .How can you do that without His spirit being in you, as your Ezekiel verse states ,they had not been sprinkled yet ??? The horse is faith ,regeneration.The cart is baptism.

1 Pet 3:20-21 God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured** baptism, which saves you now. **

As mentioned before Noah was saved by faith BEFORE the waters.Peter is using symbolism.Water (flood) did not save Noah ,His faith did ,hence he obeyed and built an ark and was saved.Water washed away the old sinful earth ,but Noah was still saved ,washed ,faithful ,regardless of the water flood.Likewise we show our salvation -existing,saving faith by water also (baptism).

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

david ruiz;8163183]Sprinkling is not baptism … They were baptized because they believed in the Lord as Messiah

.

david you are the first person I have come across who thinks that sprinkling is not baptism and belief supersedes baptism. Moses sprinkled (baptised Israel) with blood, the early Church Fathers used sprinkling as a way of baptising in the desert.

Can you name anybody including heretics from antiquity who believes what you revealed here and agree with your interpretation of the scriptures?

How is that satan and the devils believe in Jesus and are not saved?

What happens to infants who do not have any faith and die?

What happens to the handicapped who are deaf and mute or mentally ill, are you of the belief that these can never be saved because they have no faith like yours?

Catholic baptism saves you now, baptism never excludes anyone from the kingdom of God.

Logically your new self made interpretation of the scriptures is very new not to mention your translation which teaches contrary to the saving grace of God by water and the Spirit via baptism. But your interpretations is another issue.

Jesus true presence is present in each of the 7 sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ himself. Faith begins the journey, the sacrament of baptism completes the faith into the kingdom of God, Faith is strengthened from the sacrament of Holy Communion and Confirmation which completes the Christian initiation into the body of Christ. It is our Catholic faith confirmed by the scriptures and sacred Tradition combined by order of the Word of God that makes the sacrament valid and the blessed Trinity present in all 7 sacraments, So states the scripture; **Hebrews 1:1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen. 3
By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible. **

Faith cannot save you alone, Faith combined with the Word of God ordering the waters to save us while the Spirit of God is present in the sacraments, this is the visible waters coming into a saving action through the invisible which is God’s Spirit that saves us by His grace.

But you believe that Jesus saves us only by ones belief in Jesus and this constitutes one being saved? How do you constitute satan being saved because satan knows and believes in Jesus?

As mentioned before Noah was saved by faith BEFORE the waters.Peter is using symbolism.Water (flood) did not save Noah ,His faith did ,hence he obeyed and built an ark and was saved.Water washed away the old sinful earth ,but Noah was still saved ,washed ,faithful ,regardless of the water flood.Likewise we show our salvation -existing,saving faith by water also (baptism).

Noah was called by God because Noah found favor with God and walked with God. What saved Noah and his family of 8 from certain death from the end of the world was the waters which kept the ark God instructed Noah to build to float upon the waters which destroyed all the inhabitants of the earth except Noah and his family of 8.

This prefigured baptism which saves you now! because Jesus built His Church upon Peter and the apostles. This Church which is the body of Christ administers baptism as commanded by Jesus to do so in every age and nation, the Church symbolizes the Noah’s ark because the Church is made up of all the saved sinners who are baptised in the water and spirit as Jesus states in John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Do you know what a valid sacrament is?

 

[PJM]

David ruiz

.Again ,the new testament church shows one is saved by grace ,and not works of righteousness. In the John discourse that is the final point .The apostles show no indication of a literal interpretation of real presence yet Christ is happy with them .Why ? The final and ultimate criterion for righteousness is to believe,“for sure thou art the Christ,your WORDS are life” Peter said. He do NOT say, " your flesh is life". 1 John 3:23 - “For this is THE commandment of God, that we should believe on the name of His son ,Jesus Christ , and love one another, and he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him and He in them.” I do NOT see anything here of eating His flesh .The interpolation then is that eating his flesh is believing on the Son …Jesus told a man that he must, " go and sell all you have , and follow me to be righteous" .Does that literally apply to all of us ?

Partial REPLY
“This cup is the New covenant in my blood which will be shed for you”, in the New and everlasting covenant we must consume this Lamb because this Lamb’s body and blood gives us eternal life.

And Jesus said , "Do this for eternal life " ,or did he say , “Do this in REMEBRANCE of Me .”…In the end, the new testament church shifted to old testament tendencies.We went from offering thanks for the final offering, Eucharist, to re-offering daily

Hi David; I shall try in this limited space to point out the multiple errors in your NEW Understanding.

There is One absolutely MANDATORY RULE in understanding the Bible. It is that NO one part of the Bible can contradict another part. Were there even the slightest possibility of this to exist the bible would have no value at all for teaching or learning the one faith [set of beliefs of Jesus Christ]. NOT some mans version of it; what Christ taught, lived, as He wants it done. ”Thy Will be done”.

So the first sign of a WRONG understanding for all of us: is competing verses. ONLY One of them is speaking the truth. The One that does not contradict the complete message, not just a snippet.

First lets address your opening remarks about grace and works. We’ll do this w/o James chapter two which your Pastor needs to read. Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.” 1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “ Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.” John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Now as for rejection of what Christ Himself had to say about the Eucharist: Here is summary form is what God taught as the Single truth: In His Own WORDS… John from Chapter 6: 47-57 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. I am the bread of life. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, abides in me, and I in him.

I’ll close now because of limited space BUT there is OH, so very much more you are missing!

**Eph. 4: 1-7 **

“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs*] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Eph. 2: 18-22 “ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone**, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. ***So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” ***

DID YOU KNOW: nowhere in the Bible has God ever permitted more than One God, One set of beliefs and One Church?

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes many are saved without water baptism (aka people dying for the faith,martyrs death,etc). However, is that the only means of attaining salvation through faith-only?

John14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[david_ruiz]

David ruiz

 

[david_ruiz]

.

[david you are the first person I have come across who thinks that sprinkling is not baptism and belief supersedes baptism

.The Ezekial sprinkling i do not believe to be water baptism.That it is used today (sprinkling ) does not really bother me , especially since you know I believe it is more about the confession of faith in Christ that really makes a baptism. That being said , immersion was the preferred style of the first church. What is practiced today by Catholics is different than say what was done during Tertullian times. But that is another discussion .

Can you name anybody including heretics from antiquity who believes what you revealed here and agree with your interpretation of the scriptures?

[/QUOTE]

 

[david_ruiz]

As to Satan believing also ,I believe the word for that “believe” may be different than the greek word used for saving belief that we as fallen man have a choice in.

 

[KathleenGee]

So David, if the debate is so old…what are you expecting to accomplish here???

 

[Nicea325]

John14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Sorry,but grace-alone from God is what saves.

 

[PJM]

All of above is what the Catholic church has been practicing these past 2000 years unchanged. It begins by Jesus breathing upon the apostles and at pentecost and handing down the ministery of reconciliation to the Catholic Church who never ceases to baptise and forgive sins.

P.S their is mountains of evidence that baptism saves by eyewitnesses and early church fathers including St.Augustine. But you only asked before 130 a.d

Peace be with you

Here is the PASSAGE: John20:19-23 "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ***“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” *** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

This is the Institution of the Catholic Church oficially by Jesus; NOTE the words AS the Father sent Me SO I [Jesus] SEND YOU."

That means friends that Jesus transfers to the Apostles and HIS CHURCH, the VERY POWERS OF GOD. If you doubt this READ ACTS. It is no cocindence that in the very next satement, God grants the Power to Forgive Sins which by the way is DONE actually by God not the priest; but THROUGH His Priest.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[KathleenGee]

Every person has Divine grace at work within their soul.

People saw God’s handiwork in reason and nature, before Christ came into the world. For those who chose good over evil…but were not Christian then…what happened to them?..Hell…like what is coming for the Catholics???