The Real Presence

[david_ruiz]

Lets keep in mind that NT was written in Greek and in Greek the word for to eat is Phagon in John chapter 6 the word phagon “To eat” is substituted with Trogon "TO MUNCH and NAW " now this was obviously to put greater emphasis on actual eating and this should also put the symbolic claim to sleep . No matter how one slices it there would be no reason for the word change unless for greater emphasis and seems to be the case here . If you would please give me a direct response to this comment .

Interesting >Thank-you This also happens with Peter’s denial .Each one was more vehemently a denial. Also when Jesus asked Peter if he loved him .I think the last term indicated “like” ,not even love ,breaking Peter’s heart. I have no problem with your information on the “nawing”,though symbolically for me. Again the people wanted real bread which would keep you hungry again and not keep you from dying -dah. It would be like you found a lamp ,and rubbed it and a genie came out granting you a wish and you asked for a big mac cause you were hungry .The genie could say, “Eat me stupid .I mean gnaw on this ,I am a genie with great powers ,willing to give you anything and everything ,so be careful and wish big and wisely. Eat those words ,and not a big mac.”…Jesus was shaking his head ,for the creator of the universe was before them ,to save their souls from eternal damnation and bring them to paradise eternal ,and they wanted bread ! So Jesus says you want bread ? No, you need me, devour me, the purpose of my Incarnation ,to die for you and save you. Get with the program ".Why did Jesus mention another aspect of the messianic "program ", His ascension ? Why ? What does that have to do with RP ? To me, Jesus was saying forget your carnal appetites and focus on spiritual eating, and it involves seeing me as Messiah (and not as you envision the Messiah -to immediately sit on the throne of David)…These people were on there way to hell for they believed not in Jesus-that is why Jesus drove the point home to gnaw on Him-God in the flesh-who had WORDS ,WORDS of eternal life .So his words could be eternal life ,as Peter said. That defines the “what” to “gnaw” on. '“Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.”… I understand your reasoning for thinking you must eat him to be saved , for that is what he seems to say for you ,in this one chapter , but taken with all the other proclamations for salvation ,I will stick with the spiritual /figurative rendering.

 

[lyrikal]

What would it have to look like, in your opinion, if it were to be the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?

Radical wants it to look like actual flesh and actual blood. That is the only way he may consider believing it.

Here is a challenge that I posed for Radical to take on and he has yet to do so:

Sorry, Radical, you must provide a solution. Here is what is being claimed by us Catholics:

1.) The bread and wine becomes the Body and Blood of Christ
2.) The appearance is still bread and wine but it is no longer bread and wine but it is now Body and Blood of Christ.

Here is what you want to happen in order for you to believe it:

1.) The bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.
2.) The appearance of bread and wine are no longer there but now it must be actual flesh and actual blood.

Here is what your claim would suggest:

1.) That we would eat actual raw flesh and drink actual blood (that can’t be healthy…)
2.) Faith would no longer be necessary since we now have proof of everything. If the bread and wine turned into actual flesh and blood in every Catholic Mass, then there would no longer be a necessity for faith for we would have proof. We would then live by sight and not by faith…

My original question was: How could Jesus convince you that it is His flesh and His blood without taking faith away from it? Go ahead, give it a thought and pose a solution. Here is what you need to come up with:

1.) The bread and wine become actual flesh and actual blood
2.) Faith is still necessary and has to be there. There cannot be a proof of this miracle for us to see (since faith is a big part of Christianity, we can’t just throw it away).

Please try again and pose a solution for Jesus. How else could it have been done? IF, IF, IF (big IF), IF Jesus’ intention was to have us eat His body and drink His blood, do you think he would have given us actual flesh and blood to consume? If not, then how ELSE could He have done it?

I am still awaiting a reply to that.

 

[david_ruiz]

I saw 999 and I couldn’t resist -no rebuttal ! Thank you everyone for this little Journey .Catholics here could not have presented their arguments ,faith and passion any better .They indeed have their interpretations of Scripture ,the ECF’s, Tradition and experiences for evidences.Hopefully, the contrary evidences have also been shown in similar fashion.Unfortunately ,someone must be wrong and that is not easy to take .The pope could be wrong ,Luther could be wrong.The early fathers could be wrong ,or the fractured divided protestants could be wrong. That is why I have quoted "let every man be a liar ,or wrong , only God is true. In the end ,we are just individuals ,before God ,hopefully with His convictions and illumination… I have experienced “communion” from both sides of this faith issue- RP as a Catholic and symbolic as a Protestant. Both could be considered a religious ,even intimate experience. I believe many Catholics and protestants will be in heaven , putting in doubt the need for RP, at least for protestants (putting in doubt the literal interpretation of Jesus’s words that eating him is necessary for eternal life).I understand a Catholic would respond that non-RPers are missing out on having more of Jesus now. That doesn’t explain how we get into heaven without RP though. Also a protestant would say Catholics get Salvation ,irregardless of RP, and power comes from the HS-He is "effectual "…blessings and His illumination to all

 

[benedictus2]

I saw 999 and I couldn’t resist -no rebuttal ! Thank you everyone for this little Journey .Catholics here could not have presented their arguments ,faith and passion any better .They indeed have their interpretations of Scripture ,the ECF’s, Tradition and experiences for evidences.Hopefully, the contrary evidences have also been shown in similar fashion.Unfortunately ,someone must be wrong and that is not easy to take

Is that why with all the lucidity, bibilical support, historical support and logical sense that have been presented to explain the Catholic Faith you still will not accept your error?

The pope could be wrong ,Luther could be wrong.The early fathers could be wrong ,or the fractured divided protestants could be wrong. That is why I have quoted "let every man be a liar ,or wrong , only God is true.

And if God is True then it stands to reason that having become Flesh and started His Church, He would as He has stated, lead His Church into truth. God is not a manipulative despot who leaves us in error and then damns us for being in error.

In the end ,we are just individuals ,before God ,hopefully with His convictions and illumination…

Hopefully. But logically, if our convictions are contradictory, only one can be true. The question is who is correct? The Church that He established and promised to guide into truth or those who decided to set up shop 1500 years later. So just based on reason and history alone, 1500 years is way too late.

I have experienced “communion” from both sides of this faith issue- RP as a Catholic

And that experince would have been the real deal even if your “touch, sense, taste” failed to apprehend the magnitude and awesomeness of the event.

and symbolic as a Protestant.

Which would have been wanting even if you had felt or “experienced” it.

Both could be considered a religious ,even intimate experience. I believe many Catholics and protestants will be in heaven , putting in doubt the need for RP,

Huh! How does getting into heaven put the need for RP. Should you end up in heaven it will have been because of the RP. It will be a very pleasant surprise for you indeed.

at least for protestants (putting in doubt the literal interpretation of Jesus’s words that eating him is necessary for eternal life).

Which has been shown satifsfactorily to be erroneous and the rebuttal from the protestant side insufficient.

I understand a Catholic would respond that non-RPers are missing out on having more of Jesus now. That doesn’t explain how we get into heaven without RP though.

You are assuming that you get to heaven without the Eucharist.

Also a protestant would say Catholics get Salvation ,irregardless of RP, and power comes from the HS-He is "effectual "…blessings and His illumination to all

Then the protestants are quite wrong. All the blessings you get you through the Eucharist. You just have not the eyes to see it …yet.

 

[benedictus2]

Radical wants it to look like actual flesh and actual blood. That is the only way he may consider believing it.

Even if it was actuall flesh and blood, how does one know it is Jeus’s. The only way would be if he actually saw Jesus in the flesh.

So he’d be perfectly willing to walk up to the altar, slice Jesus up just so he can eat His flesh? The thought just revolts.

I wonder if he would have gone ahead and eaten it had the bread turned into raw flesh dripping with blood. I wonder if he can answer that honestly in the affirmative.

 

[CopticChristian]

Is that why with all the lucidity, bibilical support, historical support and logical sense that have been presented to explain the Catholic Faith you still will not accept your error?

And if God is True then it stands to reason that having become Flesh and started His Church, He would as He has stated, lead His Church into truth. God is not a manipulative despot who leaves us in error and then damns us for being in error.

Hopefully. But logically, if our convictions are contradictory, only one can be true. The question is who is correct? The Church that He established and promised to guide into truth or those who decided to set up shop 1500 years later. So just based on reason and history alone, 1500 years is way too late.

And that experince would have been the real deal even if your “touch, sense, taste” failed to apprehend the magnitude and awesomeness of the event.

Which would have been wanting even if you had felt or “experienced” it.

Huh! How does getting into heaven put the need for RP. Should you end up in heaven it will have been because of the RP. It will be a very pleasant surprise for you indeed.

Which has been shown satifsfactorily to be erroneous and the rebuttal from the protestant side insufficient.

You are assuming that you get to heaven without the Eucharist.

Then the protestants are quite wrong. All the blessings you get you through the Eucharist. You just have not the eyes to see it …yet.

I understand a Catholic would respond that non-RPers are missing out on having more of Jesus now. That doesn’t explain how we get into heaven without RP though.

Now we know that Protestants live. We know that Protestants die. We cannot explain nor do we have any evidence where Protestants go after death. Heaven is a possibility and there is no way to explain if this is true or not as we have not received any evidence that the contrary is also not true. Dead bodies turn to dust. Not one of those Protestants have come back to testify.We are left to wonder absent any evidence.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Where I have seen the depth in the Protestant faiths is with deep followers who are in line with one simple concept which is called “penance”. There you also find a mystical aspect they do not know by large. However if you believe in God truly, you will have to believe in the “supernatural” I hear “silence” there. Its not a maybe, or sort of, or kind-of, it is a fact. Its real and your in it, and God is completely in charge. Stop thinking and start feeling more and worship correctly through penance and you just might be struck with what you didn’t know but come to believe through correct worship. It is not an easy path however it is the path. It is also not this tremendous burden and effort…and the I can’t do that, attitude. I don’t want to do that wining. Seperate your wants and needs. You need to do this period. You can do this, put it in your mind and pick up the Cross. Take the strength from those who have it if need be. The answers you seek are not is a Book, they are in the form of correct worship. And that is correctly, the supernatural through the body and blood of GOD. Given to the church as a blessing and a covenant. Do this in memory of me…Do This, Do this, DO THIS:shrug: Start feeling and stop thinking.

The mistake I beleve throughout Christianity on a individual basis is with the word “Worship”. We worship God, and through penance and correct worship in humility comes Sanctifying Grace. As we see with the Our Father, and the apostles, the covenant is kept and continued through time. God said DO THIS. Does that sound like he proposed a choice? He is not only telling you how to pray, He is telling you how to “live”. Listen carefully, stop “rationalizing” you are going to Heaven by Default or through the back door. Its a Fairy Tale. Confession and the sacrement of reconciliation is the corrector, penance and correct worship is the path. I’m sorry, we are sorry you still reject this thus of course the Real Presence. We can do absolutly nothing with denial exept Pray for You. Our prays are with you on this one.

The Catholic Church made “no-mistake” in comprehension. And I believe as benedictus2 mentions above with “acceptance” that many refuse this area of penance and correct worship which in fact is “denial”. And with no sound basis.

Read back through this thread and whats consistant is truth all the rest is rationalization. Its denial. Luther and Calvin should have studied the mind instead of religion we’d all be better off today.

Peace

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

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