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babylonfalling
Guest
It may be freely chosen in a sense, but since hell is such an eternally negative experience, it must be blindly chosen as well.
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ynotzap
Guest
John Paul ll, according to your post never went into the description of what kind of suffering is experienced in Hell. He states that it is the freely chosen by a person and confirmed at death. This does not oppose Christs words about everlasting fire of hell. No matter what Theologians think, they will tell you Holy Scripture has the final word, it is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. St. Thomas Aquinas explains this, and the Church respects his explanation, a man gifted by the Holy Spirit. He is regarded as a Teacher by the Church. If Jesus said it, it is true, no matter how you may interpret it. It is confirmed by some of the saints who actually appeared and demonstrated the fire of Purgatory by leaving a burnt imprint of her or his hand on wood. But this is a private revelation not admissible as evidence by the Church Somehow in your mind you think that this punishment in not real and it opposes Church teaching, it doesn’t . We are entitled to our own judgements Separation from God is Hell, no matter the description.
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ynotzap
Guest
For reference on the teachings of St. Thomas on the fire of Hell it is found in Book Four: Salvation by Image Book, Chapter 90 page 332 Titled How incorporeal substance (souls) may suffer from bodily fire, ref Matt. 25:41 the Lord’s words
(6) Again the sin committed against God deserves not only the punishment of loss, but punishment of sense
the explanation is quite extensive and informing
(6) Again the sin committed against God deserves not only the punishment of loss, but punishment of sense
the explanation is quite extensive and informing
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babylonfalling
Guest
The angry, vindictive God perspective is a problem. But that can be gotten from the Old Testament itself.
Some would call that a problem with the Bible.
Some would call that a problem with our interpretation of the Bible.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
ynotzap
You wrote, “Separation from God is Hell, no matter the description.”
Actually, separation from God is spiritual death, the consuming fire of Pure Love, which Is God, can either burn or caress.
“If I go to sheol, you are there”.
You wrote, “Separation from God is Hell, no matter the description.”
Actually, separation from God is spiritual death, the consuming fire of Pure Love, which Is God, can either burn or caress.
“If I go to sheol, you are there”.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Something to think about:
If one believes in a God Who created absolutely everything except for Himself, so to speak, than absolutely everything ultimately comes from God.
Many people seem to have an absolutely disgusting “conception” of God and yet toss around so many nice sounding accolades which may sound nice but do not change the fact that their “conception” of God is of one who is not nice at all, to put it mildly and also one who seems to ask us to be better than him.
Sure does seem that some really seem to want God to be vindictive beyond human capability as opposed to merciful beyond many people’s expectations.
Maybe we should hope beyond what we believe is hope-able.
As some say, rightly, the “Word of God” Is Love since God is a Being of Love and if Love can not conquer all than God is a loser and I, for one, do NOT believe in a loser God.
Since it is GOD’S WILL that All be saved, could be that God came up with a catholic Plan even before creation, maybe we should, at least, pray for “God’s Will to be done” as Jesus, God-Incarnate, taught us.
If one believes in a God Who created absolutely everything except for Himself, so to speak, than absolutely everything ultimately comes from God.
Many people seem to have an absolutely disgusting “conception” of God and yet toss around so many nice sounding accolades which may sound nice but do not change the fact that their “conception” of God is of one who is not nice at all, to put it mildly and also one who seems to ask us to be better than him.
Sure does seem that some really seem to want God to be vindictive beyond human capability as opposed to merciful beyond many people’s expectations.
Maybe we should hope beyond what we believe is hope-able.
As some say, rightly, the “Word of God” Is Love since God is a Being of Love and if Love can not conquer all than God is a loser and I, for one, do NOT believe in a loser God.
Since it is GOD’S WILL that All be saved, could be that God came up with a catholic Plan even before creation, maybe we should, at least, pray for “God’s Will to be done” as Jesus, God-Incarnate, taught us.
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Aloysium
Guest
I think you are interpreting the comments differently than they are being stated.
I do not think God is vindictive, but rather that goodness includes merciful justice and repentance.
While being quite simple, this gets all complicated, filled with misunderstanding and miscommunication.
Look at sin, seriously, your own sins, as a clear personal example that cannot be refuted - it’s dirt. How can one cling to that and hope to be in heaven?
Jesus on the cross - many people want no part of that.
If God were to force Himself on people who do not want Him, it would be like rape. Where is the loving God there.
Heaven is a giving of oneself completely to Him, who is Love Itself. The beatific vision is a surrender, it is not taken and cannot be given.
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Telstar
Guest
It seems that the subject of Hell can bring out the good and bad in all of us, which is evident just by reading through this thread. It’s also the subject of a lot of confusion and speculation. Reading about it in the Bible, we can certainly see that most of all it’s not a pleasant place to visit, let alone to be confined in for all eternity. It’s not meant to be, and that’s the whole point of it.
Hell is a place of punishment, for sure. But, the biggest question is, who is the ‘one’ that punishes all those who go there? Is it really God? I don’t think so, because God is not sadistic. For Him to be the source of the actual punishment inflicted on souls, then He would have to be anything but God, because God is pure love. But, God does allow it, because His Justice requires there to be consequences for all those who oppose Him. While God is the Final Judge that sends the ‘convicted’ to Hell, the souls that go there convict themselves through their own actions and the choices that they made in their life on earth. No one goes to Hell if they truly love God, because all God really wants is for us to love Him, as He loves us. Souls only go to Hell because they hate God and everything/everyone that’s considered to be good (Godlike). That’s why there is no place for them in Heaven.
IMHO, Satan and his cohorts, who were cast out of Heaven, are the ones who inflict most of the punishment on the souls in Hell. They (once being angels) consider mankind to be beneath them, which is how they lost favor with God and were cast out of Heaven. (supposedly because Lucifer said he would never ‘bow down’ to any man, including God’s own Son.) But, I don’t think they are the only ones that can inflict torment on others.
All souls that go to Hell are filled with malice and hate, since Hell is the complete opposite of Heaven. Those who choose to go there vehemently hate God and everything connected with His goodness. They also hate and blame each other for their own misery. Therefore, every vice, every form of sinfulness, every evil desire, every displeasure and perversion of creation imaginable, is all contained in, and exerted on the souls and demons in Hell. The souls that are there take out all of their hate and animosity against each other, besides whatever the demons dish out.
Is there really fire and brimstone in Hell? I would have to think that it’s very possible. Fire is certainly one of the most painful elements in existence. Most people have a natural fear of it, for good reason. What about brimstone? Well, as we all know that’s the smell of burning sulfur. If there is fire, and Hell is said to be in the “bowels of the earth”, then I would think those things go hand in hand. There is nothing on earth that smells as bad as that. I also tend to think that Hell would contain everything else that would be unpleasant to any of our senses, including every kind of horrible feeling, smell, taste, sound, and site imaginable. Many Saints have described what they’ve seen of Hell, and it’s never been a pretty picture. I know I don’t want to go there. :nope:
Hell is a place of punishment, for sure. But, the biggest question is, who is the ‘one’ that punishes all those who go there? Is it really God? I don’t think so, because God is not sadistic. For Him to be the source of the actual punishment inflicted on souls, then He would have to be anything but God, because God is pure love. But, God does allow it, because His Justice requires there to be consequences for all those who oppose Him. While God is the Final Judge that sends the ‘convicted’ to Hell, the souls that go there convict themselves through their own actions and the choices that they made in their life on earth. No one goes to Hell if they truly love God, because all God really wants is for us to love Him, as He loves us. Souls only go to Hell because they hate God and everything/everyone that’s considered to be good (Godlike). That’s why there is no place for them in Heaven.
IMHO, Satan and his cohorts, who were cast out of Heaven, are the ones who inflict most of the punishment on the souls in Hell. They (once being angels) consider mankind to be beneath them, which is how they lost favor with God and were cast out of Heaven. (supposedly because Lucifer said he would never ‘bow down’ to any man, including God’s own Son.) But, I don’t think they are the only ones that can inflict torment on others.
All souls that go to Hell are filled with malice and hate, since Hell is the complete opposite of Heaven. Those who choose to go there vehemently hate God and everything connected with His goodness. They also hate and blame each other for their own misery. Therefore, every vice, every form of sinfulness, every evil desire, every displeasure and perversion of creation imaginable, is all contained in, and exerted on the souls and demons in Hell. The souls that are there take out all of their hate and animosity against each other, besides whatever the demons dish out.
Is there really fire and brimstone in Hell? I would have to think that it’s very possible. Fire is certainly one of the most painful elements in existence. Most people have a natural fear of it, for good reason. What about brimstone? Well, as we all know that’s the smell of burning sulfur. If there is fire, and Hell is said to be in the “bowels of the earth”, then I would think those things go hand in hand. There is nothing on earth that smells as bad as that. I also tend to think that Hell would contain everything else that would be unpleasant to any of our senses, including every kind of horrible feeling, smell, taste, sound, and site imaginable. Many Saints have described what they’ve seen of Hell, and it’s never been a pretty picture. I know I don’t want to go there. :nope:
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mikekle
Guest
No, Hell was created to be satan and the demons place of punishment and torment, how could they be inflicting any torment when they themselves are being punished here? BTW, right now, satan and the demons arent even in hell yet, so who could be doing the torment now?
The bible tells us that we are only given a small piece of the larger picture (in terms of knowledge), so i tend to think hell is part of this, we just dont understand all the details about it yet. Although I would think anything we speculate on about it, is probably way wrong.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Actually, it is simple, we are the ones that like to complicate it so as to think that we have “control” and/or that we can “figure it all out”.
As far as “I think you are interpreting the comments differently than they are being stated”, I am interpreting nothing, I am just looking at what is written and I, personally, find that much of it is quite disgusting and that if God is even remotely like what some think God to be and that some want God to be than I can NOT see how anyone would want, if they had a choice, to have anything to do with something such as the “conception” of God that some have.
I happen to believe that God can “clean up” anyone and that God can somehow have the person to be “cleaned up” want to be “cleaned up”, just because we think/believe that God has to do this “cleaning up” in a way that we approve of is to me, absolute nonsense.
Just because we can’t figure out how God is able to do this doesn’t mean that God has not thought of this and not only has God “thought about this”, so to speak, but thought about it even before creation itself, could be that creation and God’s Plan are One as in one and the same.
As far as the “beatific vision”, many speak of this and have not a clue what it exactly is and many speak of the “how” and the “who” and the “whatever” and ultimately all that they are doing is giving an opinion.
Could be that God does not fit into any of the “boxes” that many “well intentioned people” have constructed for God, one thing to remember, God Is God and we ain’t.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
You wrote, “Fire is certainly one of the most painful elements in existence”, it is also a purifier, God has been referred to as “a consuming Fire of Love”.
Could this “consuming Fire of Love” be what “burns off all of our crud”, what “cleans us up”?
It is clearly written that “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth”, something to definitely ponder, I would think?
Jesus did more than “go to the abode of the dead” concerning His work on the cross.
You also wrote, “Hell is a place of punishment, for sure. But, the biggest question is, who is the ‘one’ that punishes all those who go there?”
Punishment is one thing, but to go to any punishment, much less one that is beyond horror, for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and…, I would say is beyond punishment, way beyond punishment and I would think that this should be “the biggest question” NOT “who is the ‘one’ that punishes all those who go there”.
Something to think about: Since God supposedly created everything except for God than everything except for God is ultimately from God, isn’t it?
Could be that is why God has a Plan that is worthy of God and a Plan, the same one since there is only One, that many seem to have a problem with at the present time.
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Telstar
Guest
First of all, we have to remember that in the spiritual realms (Heaven, Hell and Purgatory), ‘time’ doesn’t exist in the same way as we know it. Our sense of time is measured by the rules for the physical realm of the universe. The spiritual realms are not subject to the same physical rules for the flow of time. God sees everything, past, present and future as if it were all happening in the eternal ‘present’.
“2 Peter 3: [7] But the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the ungodly men. [8] But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
So, in the spiritual realms, everything including the Final Judgement, has already happened. The damned are already in Hell and the ‘saved’ are already in Heaven. It’s not something we can understand, but God can because He created it all.
Hell wasn’t just created for the fallen angels. What makes you think that? Why do you suppose Jesus talked about sinners being in danger of going to hell, if it wasn’t also meant for them?“Matthew 5: [21] You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. [22] But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
The demons (fallen angels) hate mankind, probably even more than they hate God. They were jealous of the fact that God showed such love for man. They thought they deserved more love because they were so far above any physical creature in beauty and intelligence. Don’t you think all that hate and jealously effects how demons feel about mankind, even now? Imagine how much more intensely they’ll lash out at the souls that end up in hell with them. Now, they’re not able to do as much as they’d like to do to men, but once in hell, they’ll have power to do a lot worse. Who do you think torments the demons? They all torment each other in every way imaginable, just like they torment souls. They’re all evil to the extreme.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.”
Seeing as we all seem to have some good and some bad in us, could be that the “Consuming Fire of Love”, which Is God, will burn away the bad and caress the good in such a way as to PURIFY, as gold is purified in a furnace, we will be purified in a FURNACE OF LOVE, so to speak.
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Aloysium
Guest
Just a few more thoughts on this matter:
I am in no way suggesting that anyone here would lead another astray, but consider Genesis 3:4 - “‘You will not certainly die,’ the serpent said to the woman.” Do not be deceived!
Love recognizes love. It is Love Itself that judges.
I will speculate that underlying all sensory manifestations, where our being meets God, where the Word creates this reality of light, smell, taste sound and touch, is the ecstatic.
When we know Him now, we are likely to see the grime, like a muddy windshield on a bright sunny day, the dirt hidden in the dimmness of night.
Through Christ, and His taking upon Himself our sins, meeting God face to face is joyous.
However, the rapture that would come with knowing God, in the unrepentant sinner, cannot but be experienced as pain.
God does not create pain; to the contrary, He made us to be at peace, to enjoy what He has created for us.
Pain reflects the break in our loving relationship with Him. It is an everpresent reality for many of us in this fallen world and, according to scripture, the end to which those who forsake Love are doomed.
Something like that.
I am in no way suggesting that anyone here would lead another astray, but consider Genesis 3:4 - “‘You will not certainly die,’ the serpent said to the woman.” Do not be deceived!
Love recognizes love. It is Love Itself that judges.
I will speculate that underlying all sensory manifestations, where our being meets God, where the Word creates this reality of light, smell, taste sound and touch, is the ecstatic.
When we know Him now, we are likely to see the grime, like a muddy windshield on a bright sunny day, the dirt hidden in the dimmness of night.
Through Christ, and His taking upon Himself our sins, meeting God face to face is joyous.
However, the rapture that would come with knowing God, in the unrepentant sinner, cannot but be experienced as pain.
God does not create pain; to the contrary, He made us to be at peace, to enjoy what He has created for us.
Pain reflects the break in our loving relationship with Him. It is an everpresent reality for many of us in this fallen world and, according to scripture, the end to which those who forsake Love are doomed.
Something like that.
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Telstar
Guest
It most certainly is. That’s why Purgatory exists for all the souls that love God, but are less than perfect and die in the state of sin, or that need that last bit of purification to prepare them for entering Heaven. The fire of God’s love is what restores their soul to purity. Without it, they can’t enter Heaven because nothing defiled can ever enter.
God most certainly wants all souls to be saved, but we all have free will. God will not force us to love Him. If we don’t want to be with God, because we don’t love Him, then we will choose to separate ourselves from Him.
When Jesus did that, He freed all of the souls that had been ‘locked outside the gate’ and unable to enter Heaven before He opened them, through His Sacrifice. Some of them may have still been in Purgatory, or in some kind of “Limbo”, depending on the state of their souls. We really don’t know for sure.
You seem to forget that all those that end up in Hell, including the fallen angels, go there by their own choice. They know the consequences, which I’m sure are clearly made known to them when they’re judged. If they decide that they really hate God that much, then they make that choice willingly. As far as the ‘punishment’ goes, it seems that there are different levels of Hell, as the Bible hints at when it says the fallen angels will go, “to the deepest recesses of hell”. So, that would most likely mean that there must be different levels and types of punishment, also.
This is true. Again, the punishments of Hell will certainly fit the crimes. Just being eternally separated from God is surely painful enough, in some cases. I know it would be for me.
Are you thinking that in the end God will somehow save every soul that’s ever existed, and no one will have to go to Hell? I have to admit that I have seriously thought about that, and it would be so great if it were possible. Nothing is impossible to God, but human beings can be very evil creatures. Unfortunately, I don’t think that could ever happen. When I was much younger I was a lot more hopeful that it could happen. But over the years, I’ve known, or seen, way too many examples of people that just spew pure malevolent hatred of everything that’s good and holy, to ever believe that it could be possible. It’s sad, but true. Some truly despicable people exist in this world that just exude pure hatred, from every cell in their body. I can’t for the life of me understand it, but it’s a very sad fact of life.
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Telstar
Guest
I just responded to your first post that quoted me. I think I answered this as best I can. God’s Mercy is a bottomless well of Pure Love, but unless we reach our cup down to drink from it, it can’t help us.
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babylonfalling
Guest
God is beyond the limits of human comprehension.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Is it your opinion that man’s evilness is greater than God’s Goodness?It most certainly is. That’s why Purgatory exists for all the souls that love God, but are less than perfect and die in the state of sin, or that need that last bit of purification to prepare them for entering Heaven. The fire of God’s love is what restores their soul to purity. Without it, they can’t enter Heaven because nothing defiled can ever enter.
God most certainly wants all souls to be saved, but we all have free will. God will not force us to love Him. If we don’t want to be with God, because we don’t love Him, then we will choose to separate ourselves from Him.
When Jesus did that, He freed all of the souls that had been ‘locked outside the gate’ and unable to enter Heaven before He opened them, through His Sacrifice. Some of them may have still been in Purgatory, or in some kind of “Limbo”, depending on the state of their souls. We really don’t know for sure.
You seem to forget that all those that end up in Hell, including the fallen angels, go there by their own choice. They know the consequences, which I’m sure are clearly made known to them when they’re judged. If they decide that they really hate God that much, then they make that choice willingly. As far as the ‘punishment’ goes, it seems that there are different levels of Hell, as the Bible hints at when it says the fallen angels will go, “to the deepest recesses of hell”. So, that would most likely mean that there must be different levels and types of punishment, also.
This is true. Again, the punishments of Hell will certainly fit the crimes. Just being eternally separated from God is surely painful enough, in some cases. I know it would be for me.
Are you thinking that in the end God will somehow save every soul that’s ever existed, and no one will have to go to Hell? I have to admit that I have seriously thought about that, and it would be so great if it were possible. Nothing is impossible to God, but human beings can be very evil creatures. Unfortunately, I don’t think that could ever happen. When I was much younger I was a lot more hopeful that it could happen. But over the years, I’ve known, or seen, way too many examples of people that just spew pure malevolent hatred of everything that’s good and holy, to ever believe that it could be possible. It’s sad, but true. Some truly despicable people exist in this world that just exude pure hatred, from every cell in their body. I can’t for the life of me understand it, but it’s a very sad fact of life.
I don’t and I believe that God is capable of “cleaning up” anything, so to speak, and since it is “God’s Will that ALL be saved” that God can somehow accomplish this even tho many think/believe, and in some cases sad to say seem to want, that God is incapable of doing this.
Just because we seem to have “tied God’s Hands”, so to speak, with our declarations of doctrine and other such things does not necessarily make it so.
Seems really sad to me that many seem to think that there is a limit to God’s “rewards” but that God’s punishments are unlimited.
You wrote, “Are you thinking that in the end God will somehow save every soul that’s ever existed, and no one will have to go to Hell?”
When I wrote, “Jesus did more than “go to the abode of the dead” concerning His work on the cross.”, I was trying to get across that Jesus went to hell not just the so-called “good place of the dead”.
When Jesus said, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, Jesus was telling us the “mission” of His Church.
Have you ever heard the “O my Jesus” prayer?
O my Jesus
forgive US our sins
Save US from the fires of hell
Lead ALL souls to heaven
Help especially ALL those MOST in need of Thy MERCY.
Sounds to me to be quite a catholic prayer, does it also to you?
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I agree and sometimes it takes meeting God to know this rather than to just believe it, but there sure do seem to be quite a few who seem to know the “limits”, at least their ‘conception’ of the limits, of God.
These ‘limits’ are sometimes taught, thought up by other people and sometimes thought up by the person themself.
I, for one, think that there are going to be quite a few believers that are going to be more surprised by God than some of the non-believers when they eventually meet God.
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StevenFrancis
Guest
When I think of Hell, I think of it pretty much as the world we’re in now, except without beauty, love, or hope. So, like all the land mass covered wall to wall with concrete and city. It’s always dark. There’s dope, and liquor, meaningless empty lonely sex. Lot’s of fighting. Probably TV, Heavy metal music. Gangster Rap, etc. No talk, memory, or understanding of God at all. NO HOPE. No redemption. No prayer. No color. Just cars, pollution, darkness, noise, tenament apartments, slovenly appearance, no real friendship. Everything is emptiness. No meaning to anything at all. No art. No law. Just endless debauchery, but with no joy in it whatsoever. All this going on in permanent bodies which can’t die. It’s as far from God as one can be, per their wishes during their temporal lives. Perhaps memories to torment us over the choices we made to get there in the first place.
It would be kind of a mirror opposite of the new Heaven and New Earth where all is color, and love and joy and perfection, yet in bodies which experience the highest and most wonderful of sensations. All friendship being meaningful and full of love. All sins and bad mistakes forgotten in the mist. Lots of plants and trees and fresh air, and light and always the presence of God, everywhere. There may not be hope here either, because there is nothing to hope FOR. All is all, and has been fulfilled. But there is never despair.
I picture both heaven and hell to be kind of earth based. Items, images, and things we understand and can contextualize, but all things brought to the most real and perfected state. The perfected state of ugliness of this world for eternity for those in hell. The perfected state of beauty and joy for those in heaven. Never the twain shall meet. Nor even care, or possibly even know of each others existence. There would be no need to think about or wonder about hell in heaven. At least none that I can think of.
It would be kind of a mirror opposite of the new Heaven and New Earth where all is color, and love and joy and perfection, yet in bodies which experience the highest and most wonderful of sensations. All friendship being meaningful and full of love. All sins and bad mistakes forgotten in the mist. Lots of plants and trees and fresh air, and light and always the presence of God, everywhere. There may not be hope here either, because there is nothing to hope FOR. All is all, and has been fulfilled. But there is never despair.
I picture both heaven and hell to be kind of earth based. Items, images, and things we understand and can contextualize, but all things brought to the most real and perfected state. The perfected state of ugliness of this world for eternity for those in hell. The perfected state of beauty and joy for those in heaven. Never the twain shall meet. Nor even care, or possibly even know of each others existence. There would be no need to think about or wonder about hell in heaven. At least none that I can think of.
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