The Reality of How Trans People are Treated

[aspawloski4th]

]

You know nothing about what I do or do not do outside of cyberspace. Please don’t pretend to stand in judgment of my actions, and I will accord you the same courtesy.} You fit a pattern that I see time and time again. I won’t make any further accusations, but I find a lot of what you say when talking about what you condone and don’t condone hard to believe.

 

[St_Francis]

…4. See Thomas More Legal Centre’s activities at Montgomery County, Gainesville, Hamtramck and Kalamazoo. The latter’s a good example, the Knights of Columbus and a local priest inviting 21 Imams from local mosques to preach to them about the evils of GLBTs, and to oppose legislation that would have allowed them to enter cinemas, use drinking fountains etc.

Here’s a quote from the legislation that the TMLC opposed in Montgomery County:
They openly and overtly campaigned for the right to prevent GLBTs from using these facilities.

(1) restaurants, soda fountains, and other eating or drinking places, and all places where food is sold for consumption either on or off the premises;
(2) inns, hotels, and motels, whether serving temporary or permanent patrons;
(3) retail stores and service establishments;
(4) hospitals and clinics;
(5) motion picture, stage, and other theaters and music, concert, or meeting halls;
(6) circuses, exhibitions, skating rinks, sports arenas and fields, amusement or recreation parks, picnic grounds, fairs, bowling alleys, golf courses,
gymnasiums, shooting galleries, billiard and pool rooms, and swimming pools;
(7) public conveyances, such as automobiles, buses, taxicabs, trolleys, trains, limousines, boats, airplanes, and bicycles;
(8) utilities, such as water and sewer service, electricity, telephone, and cable television;
(9) streets, roads, sidewalks, other public rights-of-way, parking lots or garages, marinas, airports, and hangars; and
(10) places of public assembly and entertainment of every kind.

Can you provide a link to this quoted material? to be perfectly honest, it sounds a lot more like race-based civil-rights legislation than anything else, because I don’t think that people are checking sexual or gender identities when taking their fares on a bus, and secondly, I don’t think there are any trolley systems left in Michigan.

And possibly a link or links to STMC’s involvement in all of this?

I ma not sure of the STMC’s involvement in all this; however, I would say that there might be two problems: one is the inclusion of regularization of homosexual activity in the same legislation, and the other is the use of what are generally considered to be facilities for one sex only.

Personally, I do not want to be, and I esp do not want my daughters to be using the bathroom and have someone who, whatever his or her mind is telling him or her, *looks like *the opposite sex using the same facility. Among other things, I don’t know if that person is genuine or faking it so as to get some sexual kicks, and there will be those who take advantage of this to do that.

So, I don’t think that the situation is as cut-and-dried as you think it is.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Personally, I do not want to be, and I esp do not want my daughters to be using the bathroom and have someone who, whatever his or her mind is telling him or her, *looks like *the opposite sex using the same facility.

The trouble is, the TMLC wanted men like these to use the Ladies room.







And would compel women like these to use the men’s room:







The text of the legislation in Montgomery County (not Kalamazoo etc) is at notmyshower.com/codes.pdf. The ordnance that was being opposed was one that would have added gays and trans people to existing protections for Catholics (amongst others).

As for the TMLC involvement, they boast about it on their website. See for example :
TMLC to Act as Legal Counsel for ‘Citizens For Good Public Policy’ in Gainesville, Florida

The Gainesville situation was particularly interesting, because gays (but not trans people) had been covered by civil rights legislation for years. The TMLC wanted those existing protections removed, as well as denied to trans people of course. They had to lie a lot in the process.

I know this is difficult to believe. Fortunately, the Internet provides the forensic trail - often in caches, as such statements are often removed after the event, and denied post-facto.

“Hamtramck is following in the footsteps of a number of cities who recognize this is an important issue,” said Kevin McAlpine, the Triangle Foundation’s deputy director. “The majority of people in Hamtramck believe everyone should be treated with fairness and respect.”

That’s not so, said Brian Rooney of the Thomas More Law Center.

• Detroit News

The Coming Nightmare of a “Transsexual Rights
and Hate Crimes" Law in Massachusetts:

…transgender/transsexual” activists… want to offer your children on the bloody altar of transsexuality – pulling them into sex-change operations involving unimaginable bodily mutilations and hormonal manipulations.
…
The culture of death has created a compulsion in the souls of the homosexual radicals and their “trans” allies, driving them ever further into new perversions. There is no bottom to this pit of depravity, and they will drag many innocent victims along with them: the young, the lonely, the psychologically and physically wounded, the confused – including some of your children and grandchildren, family, friends and neighbors. There will be no safe haven. You cannot cocoon in your homes or churches. Our public schools, businesses, public accommodations (which may include churches), your employers and insurers, will all be forced to yield to yet-undefined perversions, protected by law.

• MassResistance

Or there’s Adol T. Owen-Williams II, a Montgomery County Republican Central Committee member, who shouted “Heil Hitler!” immediately after the vote to allow Intersexed women and men to be allowed to drink from public drinking fountains. “Wait until little girls start showing up dead all over the county because of freaks of nature.” (Source: Gazette.net )

And so on and so on. The lies about the “Bathroom Bill” are particularly egregious. Claims have been made that this kind of legislation will allow perverts free rein to use public facilities as hunting grounds. Refuting this is a as difficult as refuting a claim that it will cause Pink Elephants to drop from the skies. One can show that similar laws have been in force for 33 years in various places, that they already cover 38% of the US population, and there’s never been a problem, with either Pink Elephants dropping in, or perverts using the law as cover. But that’s all.

Perverts have attacked people in restrooms - in both places with such laws, and without. Rather more without, in fact. And none have ever even attempted to use such laws as a shield.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Here’s a list starting 2 years ago of places with such laws in place, with no problem:

2007 State of Colorado
State of Iowa
Lake Worth, FL
Milwaukee, WI
Palm Beach County, FL
State of Oregon
Saugatuck, MI
State of Vermont
West Palm Beach, FL
2006 Bloomington, IN
Cincinnati, OH
Easton, PA
Ferndale, MI
Hillsboro, OR
Johnson County, IA
King County, WA
Lansdowne, PA
Lansing, MI
State of New Jersey
Swarthmore, PA
State of Washington
West Chester, PA
2005 Gulfport, FL
State of Illinois
Indianapolis, IN
Lincoln City, OR
State of Maine
Northampton, MA
Washington, DC
2004 Albany, NY
Austin, TX
Beaverton, OR
Bend, OR
Burien, WA
Oakland, CA
Miami Beach, FL
Tompkins County, NY
2003 State of California
State of New Mexico
Carbondale, IL
Covington, KY
El Paso, TX
Ithaca, NY
Key West, FL
Lake Oswego, OR
Monroe Co., FL
Oakland, CA
Peoria, IL
San Diego, CA
Scranton, PA
Springfield, IL
University City, MO
2002 Allentown, PA
Baltimore, MD
Boston, MA
Buffalo, NY
Chicago, IL
Cook County, IL
Dallas, TX
Decatur, IL
East Lansing, MI
Erie County, PA
New Hope, PA
New York City, NY
Philadelphia, PA
Salem, OR
Tacoma, WA
2001 Denver, CO
Huntington Woods, MI
Multnomah Co., OR
State of Rhode Island
Rochester, NY
Suffolk County, NY
2000 Atlanta, GA
Boulder, CO
DeKalb, IL
Madison, WI
Portland, OR
1999 Ann Arbor, MI
Jefferson County, KY
Lexington-Fayette Co., KY
Louisville, KY
Tucson, AZ
1998 Benton County, OR
Santa Cruz County, CA
New Orleans, LA
Toledo, OH
West Hollywood, CA
York, PA
1997 Cambridge, MA
Evanston, IL
Olympia, WA
Pittsburgh, PA
Ypsilanti, MI
1996 Iowa City, IA
1994 Grand Rapids, MI
San Francisco, CA
1993 State of Minnesota
1992 Santa Cruz, CA
1990 St. Paul, MN
1986 Seattle, WA
1983 Harrisburg, PA
1979 Los Angeles, CA.
Urbana, IL
1977 Champaign, IL
1975 Minneapolis, MN

Number of cases of sexual predators using the law as a defence: 0

Number of cases of men exposing themselves in women's rooms and being convicted despite the law : At least 1 (Portland OR)

Number of cases of opponents of this law acting as “agents provocateur” and being caught at it : 1

You see, they didn’t have an actual example, so tried manufacturing one. But they got exposed. This example though is still being quoted as valid by several groups. They lie, a lot. They bear false witness. And many of them profess to be Catholic, and sometimes belong to avowedly Catholic groups. Of couse No True Scotsman would do that.

All we have to refute the lies, the hysteria, the misrepresentations, and (for the vast majority opposing such bills) the misunderstanding based on them believing “Christians” they trust, are the facts.

Senators unanimously killed a transgender rights bill that opponents had lampooned as the “bathroom bill.” The bill would have banned landlords and employers from discriminating against transgender people – those who are born into one sex but identify as the other, some of whom undergo a sex-change operation. Opponents claimed that the measure would give carte blanche to predators to enter any bathroom or locker room they pleased.
Two senators inveighed against the opposition campaign and vowed to keep the issue alive in years to come. “My colleagues and I know that the distortion and misnaming of this bill is an outrage and embodies the very core of ugly and misplaced prejudice we had hoped this bill would prevent,” said Sen. Martha Fuller Clark, a Portsmouth Democrat.
Sen. Jackie Cilley reserved particular scorn for journalists who put “bathroom bill” in headlines and in the lead of stories. “I say you are not journalists,” she said. “You have served merely as stenographers. You should hang your heads in shame.”

As the result of this hysteria, the NH senate voted 28-0 against it - a bill that would merely have extended the same civil rights to trans people as gays have enjoyed for a decade in that state.

On the same day, they OK’d “Gay Marriage”.

See the problem?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Here’s a list starting 2 years ago of places with such laws in place, with no problem:

2007 State of Colorado
State of Iowa
Lake Worth, FL
Milwaukee, WI
Palm Beach County, FL
State of Oregon
Saugatuck, MI
State of Vermont
West Palm Beach, FL
2006 Bloomington, IN
Cincinnati, OH
Easton, PA
Ferndale, MI
Hillsboro, OR
Johnson County, IA
King County, WA
Lansdowne, PA
Lansing, MI
State of New Jersey
Swarthmore, PA
State of Washington
West Chester, PA
2005 Gulfport, FL
State of Illinois
Indianapolis, IN
Lincoln City, OR
State of Maine
Northampton, MA
Washington, DC
2004 Albany, NY
Austin, TX
Beaverton, OR
Bend, OR
Burien, WA
Oakland, CA
Miami Beach, FL
Tompkins County, NY
2003 State of California
State of New Mexico
Carbondale, IL
Covington, KY
El Paso, TX
Ithaca, NY
Key West, FL
Lake Oswego, OR
Monroe Co., FL
Oakland, CA
Peoria, IL
San Diego, CA
Scranton, PA
Springfield, IL
University City, MO
2002 Allentown, PA
Baltimore, MD
Boston, MA
Buffalo, NY
Chicago, IL
Cook County, IL
Dallas, TX
Decatur, IL
East Lansing, MI
Erie County, PA
New Hope, PA
New York City, NY
Philadelphia, PA
Salem, OR
Tacoma, WA
2001 Denver, CO
Huntington Woods, MI
Multnomah Co., OR
State of Rhode Island
Rochester, NY
Suffolk County, NY
2000 Atlanta, GA
Boulder, CO
DeKalb, IL
Madison, WI
Portland, OR
1999 Ann Arbor, MI
Jefferson County, KY
Lexington-Fayette Co., KY
Louisville, KY
Tucson, AZ
1998 Benton County, OR
Santa Cruz County, CA
New Orleans, LA
Toledo, OH
West Hollywood, CA
York, PA
1997 Cambridge, MA
Evanston, IL
Olympia, WA
Pittsburgh, PA
Ypsilanti, MI
1996 Iowa City, IA
1994 Grand Rapids, MI
San Francisco, CA
1993 State of Minnesota
1992 Santa Cruz, CA
1990 St. Paul, MN
1986 Seattle, WA
1983 Harrisburg, PA
1979 Los Angeles, CA.
Urbana, IL
1977 Champaign, IL
1975 Minneapolis, MN

Number of cases of sexual predators using the law as a defence: 0

Number of cases of men exposing themselves in women’s rooms and being convicted despite the law : At least 1 (Portland OR)

Number of cases of opponents of this law acting as “agents provocateur” and being caught at it : 1

You see, they didn’t have an actual example, so tried manufacturing one. But they got exposed. This example though is still being quoted as valid by several groups. They lie, a lot. They bear false witness. And many of them profess to be Catholic, and sometimes belong to avowedly Catholic groups. Of couse No True Scotsman would do that.

All we have to refute the lies, the hysteria, the misrepresentations, and (for the vast majority opposing such bills) the misunderstanding based on them believing “Christians” they trust, are the facts.

As the result of this hysteria, the NH senate voted 28-0 against it - a bill that would merely have extended the same civil rights to trans people as gays have enjoyed for a decade in that state.

On the same day, they OK’d “Gay Marriage”.

See the problem?

Ilve near some of those Michigan locaities. I can Zoe is telling the truth.

 

[latin_rite]

From a forum I’m on:

The next time someone says “A Hate Crimes Bill is anti-Christian”, that “there is no evidence of a problem”, I am going to have to really, really, really work on my charity, my capacity to forgive, to see anothers viewpoint.

The next time someone says that Trans people are rebelling against God, are inherently sinful, and have brought this treatment upon themselves, likewise.

This happened within the last 24 hours you see - hasn’t made the papers, and as it’s just another killing of a transsexual girl, probably won’t. Most don’t. What was it, 28 last year, only 11 publicised?

I broke down at the Transgender Day of Remembrance last year, when I came to the name of one of the victims. Only 10 years old. I forget how long the list is now, 17 pages I think, more every year, and in the USA, the rate is increasing.

Yes, I know it’s a mark of the Fall, but I am getting really, really tired of Catholics and other Christians AIDING AND ABETTING THIS. They deny it, to themselves and to others, but many call for violence. Some participate. Far more don’t do it - they just stay silent when others do. That is aiding. That is abetting. I’m not saying a single Catholic was in the attacking gang. I am saying that there are many Catholics who would just shrug their shoulders and say “The Wages of Sin is Death” and walk away.

For more on such issues see What is the Church’s position on the Intersexed and Transsexed? and Transsexualism : why is it so despised?.

Please don’t comment about how it’s nothing to do with the Church, it’s Man’s Sinful nature etc etc. I know that. I’ve heard it many times before. I’ve heard it so often, usually immediately followed by condemnation of those born (through no fault of their own) neither wholly male nor wholly female in body, that forgive me but I’m sick of it. I’m sick of the hypocrisy and denial. The aiding and abetting.

If I hear one more tale of a Catholic Priest advising a transsexual woman to go home and commit suicide to avoid public scandal, I will really need to sit down and work on my forgiveness even more. How I should pray for those who have lost their way. How of course advising someone to commit a mortal sin is contrary to all Catholic belief yada yada yada. Yes I know, and “no true priest” would ever do that. Well if so, there’s hundreds of false ones. If you tell me there isn’t a systemic problem here, pull the other leg, it’s got bells on. Yes, the problem may be worse in some Protestant sects, I’m aware of that. That’s irrelevant.

I need to let go of my anger. I need to follow His teachings, even though I’m no Christian, and tears are falling on the keyboard as I write this. I’ve heard too many stories like this one, it’s happened too often.

Please, no more denial. No more turning away. No more aiding and abetting.

They say the transexual was raped… So if if it was pre planned and they knew the victim was a transexual, then the attackers were most likely homosexuals. What happened to this young man is indeed sad. It happens everyday. to all sections of the community. For every case you show me of this happening to a homosexual. i’ll show you ten cases of it happening to a non homosexual. Where is your anger and pity for them? I feel anger and disgust at what happened to this young man. But no more than i do when i hear of it happening to any section of our community. And yes hate crimes are anti christian. Not because it is against any of our morals or beliefs. But it puts one section of our community on a higher plain so to speak. it is making the law say. “that because this person is of a certain sexuality, it is better and more worthy of protecion than others (christians)” Why not get rid of hate crimes and just increase the punishment for all violent crimes? What would you think if the law brought out a ruling that said, that the killing of a christian is somehow more terrible. and that the punishment for crimes against them should be tougher?

 

[Zoe_Brain]

They say the transexual was raped… So if if it was pre planned and they knew the victim was a transexual, then the attackers were most likely homosexuals.

I’m reliably informed that gays generally don’t want to have vaginal sex, by rape or otherwise. And this girl had a vagina, as do most - but not all. Had you read the article carefully, you would have known that, instead of making unfounded and slanderous accusations.

For every case you show me of this happening to a homosexual. i’ll show you ten cases of it happening to a non homosexual.

This girl was straight - hetero. Into boys, not other girls.

What would you think if the law brought out a ruling that said, that the killing of a christian is somehow more terrible. and that the punishment for crimes against them should be tougher?

**It already does. **Christians are already covered by existing legislation like this. Killing a Christian just for being a Christian is already a Hate Crime, just like killing a Gay just for being Gay will be if the bill is passed. It’s the same wording. You’re already protected. They’re not.

I hope your remarks are the result of transcendent ignorance, prejudice, and a careless and callous indifference to the facts, or even just plain pardonable stupidity, rather than malice. It’s so difficult to tell the two apart sometimes. Especially when people continue to (deliberately?) conflate Gays with Trans people. Even when requested politely not to, and in the face of the evidence.

On the other hand, your remarks illustrate better than my words could ever do the scope of the problem amongst certain pious, even unctuous, Catholics. Many people on this forum don’t believe that people like you actually exist.

 

[St_Francis]

I have read this whole thread, and I find it difficult to respond in part because there are so many different logic-things going on, but mostly because I see that you, Zoe, are in a lot of pain as the result of this heinous crime. And I totally agree with you that it is a heinous crime which will hopefully be solved and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I guess my major question to you, Zoe, is what do you need right now? Do you want an intellectual discussion of the issues raised in this thread, because to me there is a lot of emotion running through, or are you in need of comfort?

I ask because obviously we don’t know you in person, and for some people debate on the issues would be ok, but for other people, it would not actually help and might only hurt.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I guess my major question to you, Zoe, is what do you need right now? Do you want an intellectual discussion of the issues raised in this thread, because to me there is a lot of emotion running through, or are you in need of comfort?

+1 Insightful.

I’m looking for both.

I get comfort by doing something to help, not by words.

I wish to present information for others to read, and to make up their own minds.

I realise that not many people have any inkling of what Trans people actually go through. Tell them, and many disbelieve, because their world-view does not include the possibility of things like that happening.

For example, I had a debate with a lady from Boston who was petrified out of her wits. Her priest had told her about the “Bathroom Bill” that would allow rapists into female restrooms, and as a rape survivor herself, with three young daughters, she was terrified at what was being proposed in the state of Massachaussets. She asked me how I could possibly support such a thing, how it would lead to all sorts of terrible consequences and change her life forever. She would feel too afraid to ever go down to the shops again, should this pass.

I told her that Boston, where she lived, had had such legislation since 2002. But she didn’t believe me. In vain I showed her the legislation online, but she preferred to believe her spiritual advisor, her priest, rather than a complete stranger. I can’t blame her, I just wanted to remove the state of terror she’d been put in by those who should have known better, and probably did. Her priest told her that the legislation would lead to freakish cross-dressed men in the ladies’ room, and since that obviously wasn’t happening, there must be no legislation, despite what was in the legal database for the City of Boston.

I can’t reach everyone. I can’t help everyone, there’s just too many. I’ve been so very lucky compared to many, I have an obligation. From those to whom much has been given, much will be expected.

St F, your post floored me, in a way that even the most hate-filled screed, full of death-threats would not. You treated me as if I were Human.

That is… rare. Really. We know how to handle the news of yet another of us tortured to death. We know how to handle being called perverts, and freaks, and all the rest. We know how to handle even parents and priests telling us to go away and suicide so as not to shame our families. But kindness… it disarms us completely, leaving us in helpless sobs.

Thank you. I’ve had kindness from you, but also from many others here. The majority in fact. Even those who have spouted the most egregious nonsense have not attacked me personally. They may have attacked what they see as my sin, but not me. So I shouldn’t have been surprised.

So in summary - no matter how emotionally draining for me - the intellectual debate, please. With URLs and evidence from both sides, not just from me.

And God Bless you for thinking of me,

Zoe

 

[Zoe_Brain]

There is another reason I’m feeling emotionally drained. Some wonderful news just in.

It looks like the victim’s account was hacked, and she’s actually OK. This was someone who knows how many of us have been murdered this way having a joke at our expense.

We’re doing some computer forensic work now - many of us are in the industry, and know a few things about tracing that are not common knowledge.

So she’s not dead after all. And for that, I truly give thanks.

 

[Eucharisted]

There is another reason I’m feeling emotionally drained. Some wonderful news just in.

It looks like the victim’s account was hacked, and she’s actually OK. This was someone who knows how many of us have been murdered this way having a joke at our expense.

We’re doing some computer forensic work now - many of us are in the industry, and know a few things about tracing that are not common knowledge.

So she’s not dead after all. And for that, I truly give thanks.

Gloria Dei!

Now, kindly retract what you said here…

If Christians did not fight very selectively, vigorously attacking some sins, while mumbling “well of course you shouldn’t actually kill these sinners, even though that would be understandable…” then there would be no need for me to call you out on it.

…Because it is not true. You have no evidence for such a claim, and I know you have no evidence for it because it is a popular unfounded accusation hurled against Christians, to paint them as anti-gay or anti-transexual, which is used by some homosexuals and transsexuals when talking about Christianity and Christian behavior. I’ve heard the accusation many times, thousands of times, by almost every homosexual, transsexual, and bisexual individual I’ve met online, and the same “evidence” is always given for it: personal experience, hearsay, exaggerated stories, and downright lies. Until I see real evidence against Christians, I will always ask people to retract their accusations, for such accusations do unjust damage to Christianity.

 

[latin_rite]

I’m reliably informed that gays generally don’t want to have vaginal sex, by rape or otherwise. And this girl had a vagina, as do most - but not all. Had you read the article carefully, you would have known that, instead of making unfounded and slanderous accusations.
This girl was straight - hetero. Into boys, not other girls. .

you’re missing the point… Or ignoring the facts. They did not have vaginal sex. this person did not have a vagina. Nor was this person a hetrosexual. As it was a male… Not a female. If you want to go down this rediculous alley that the person was a hetrosexual female. then it can not be a hate crime…And you say i am making “unfounded slanderous accustations” I ask you. Did these people say that what they did, is becuase they were taught by the Church that it was ok to do what they did? Were they even Catholics? You seem so sure of the this. Where is your proof? You say that if you hear of one more catholic priest telling someone to go home and kill themselves because they are transgender. you will need to have a good sit down. How do you know this person is truthful in their “unfounded accustations”?

I hope your remarks are the result of transcendent ignorance, prejudice, and a careless and callous indifference to the facts, or even just plain pardonable stupidity, rather than malice. It’s so difficult to tell the two apart sometimes. Especially when people continue to (deliberately?) conflate Gays with Trans people. Even when requested politely not to, and in the face of the evidence.

On the other hand, your remarks illustrate better than my words could ever do the scope of the problem amongst certain pious, even unctuous, Catholics. Many people on this forum don’t believe that people like you actually exist.

My remarks are based on the facts. If a male has a sex change operation.He is still a male. I’m sorry just stating facts.

If you take a apple and paint it orange and ask me to call it a orange i won’t. No matter how you try and argue that its a orange. And where were my remarks."pious and even “unctuous” manner? I did not even hint that i was even the slightest more pious than this person. And i don’t know where this unctuous comes into it. i neither was smug about this poor person nor did i try and persuade you that this person was some how lesser of a being and deserved what he got. And how have Catholics aided and abetted these things. I have never ever heard a Catholic friend of mine nor priest even hint in the slightest way, that we should act violently or accept such violence as being just or justafiable. I know you’re angry. And so you should be. But it doesn’t excuse such eratic behaviour.
And when was the last time you heard of someone getting a tougher than usual punishment becuase he committed a crime against a Christian?

 

[latin_rite]

I did not see Eucharisted post. If i had zoe brain my above post would have read a lot differently. I was going to post Some thing on you must totally feel like a gullible hypocrite. Who couldn’t wait to come in here and attack all of us Catholics for causing such an attack. Don’t be suprise if some people here don’t take your friend of a friend stories as the gospel… But i guess looking stupid is punishment enough. Now i’m feeling unctuous. Beleive you me. i’m feeling very very unctuous.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Gloria Dei!

Now, kindly retract what you said here…

…Because it is not true. You have no evidence for such a claim, and I know you have no evidence for it because it is a popular unfounded accusation hurled against Christians, to paint them as anti-gay or anti-transexual, which is used by some homosexuals and transsexuals when talking about Christianity and Christian behavior. I’ve heard the accusation many times, thousands of times, by almost every homosexual, transsexual, and bisexual individual I’ve met online, and the same “evidence” is always given for it: personal experience, hearsay, exaggerated stories, and downright lies. Until I see real evidence against Christians, I will always ask people to retract their accusations, for such accusations do unjust damage to Christianity.

Iv’e one word for you! Sentiment. Read between the lines.

 

[St_Francis]

There is another reason I’m feeling emotionally drained. Some wonderful news just in.

It looks like the victim’s account was hacked, and she’s actually OK. This was someone who knows how many of us have been murdered this way having a joke at our expense.

We’re doing some computer forensic work now - many of us are in the industry, and know a few things about tracing that are not common knowledge.

So she’s not dead after all. And for that, I truly give thanks.

That is wonderful news!

 

[aspawloski4th]

Gloria Dei!

Now, kindly retract what you said here…

…Because it is not true. You have no evidence for such a claim, and I know you have no evidence for it because it is a popular unfounded accusation hurled against Christians, to paint them as anti-gay or anti-transexual, which is used by some homosexuals and transsexuals when talking about Christianity and Christian behavior. I’ve heard the accusation many times, thousands of times, by almost every homosexual, transsexual, and bisexual individual I’ve met online, and the same “evidence” is always given for it: personal experience, hearsay, exaggerated stories, and downright lies. Until I see real evidence against Christians, I will always ask people to retract their accusations, for such accusations do unjust damage to Christianity.

You want evidence?! Just listen to the drivel coming from Dr James Dobson. His anti trans crusade has made me turn him off forever.

 

[St_Francis]

+1 Insightful.
…St F, your post floored me, in a way that even the most hate-filled screed, full of death-threats would not. You treated me as if I were Human.

That is… rare. Really. We know how to handle the news of yet another of us tortured to death. We know how to handle being called perverts, and freaks, and all the rest. We know how to handle even parents and priests telling us to go away and suicide so as not to shame our families. But kindness… it disarms us completely, leaving us in helpless sobs.

Thank you. I’ve had kindness from you, but also from many others here. The majority in fact. Even those who have spouted the most egregious nonsense have not attacked me personally. They may have attacked what they see as my sin, but not me. So I shouldn’t have been surprised.

So in summary - no matter how emotionally draining for me - the intellectual debate, please. With URLs and evidence from both sides, not just from me.

And God Bless you for thinking of me,

Zoe

I feel bad that your experience from others is so awful that you see what I consider natural humanity as being different, but I am happy to hear that your interactions with us here has been good!

Remember that I am learning about this issue, so I will probably make some mistakes, but one of the articles you referred to linked to one that mentioned a paper that was written at Johns Hopkins, which I haven’t read. I read the article linked here.

From this article, I gathered that not all requests for gender-change operations are from people who think that they actually are the opposite sex. The study they did found two types of people requesting the operations: people who cross-dressed for sexual reasons who wanted to further the experience, and homosexuals who thought that changing their gender would allow them to be in synch with their sexual attraction.

It seems that there are people who, for reasons we may or may not yet know, really and truly have a physical situation which causes them to have an identity at variance with their physical characteristics. The most overt example of this situation would be those whose bodies were messed up at birth and who were then operated on and simply assigned a gender on the basis that if they were raised in that sex, they’d be ok. These people were almost all males who ended up female.

It seems that there are also separate people who have another reason for wanting to change their sex characteristics and “become” a member of the opposite sex.

So, one problem that what we might call truly transgendered people have is that there are others who put themselves into that category who do not truly fit into that category, and these people usually are involved in disordered activity which they do not consider sinful, and which they want to have accepted in the range of normal by society.

Additionally, truly transgendered people are often included with active homosexuals who are also involved in disordered activity which they do not consider sinful, and which they want to have accepted in the range of normal by society in legal matters.

And in addition, there is almost no knowledge or understanding of true “transgenderism” (not sure of the proper term for that) in the wider public.

So you can see right off the bat that this is a public relations nightmare. People are not knowledgeable about the problem, and those who suffer from it are entwined in the public’s mind with those who suffer from disordered desires and want not only to act on them but to have them accepted as normal.

For the vast majority of the American population, what they know about transgender issues are related to the homosexual agenda, by which I mean things like this, which is *not *something that parents want their children to be sucked into; homosexual indoctrination under the guise of AIDS prevention given to teens at Tufts University (3 state employees were fired for this); and the odd readings of King and King; Someone, including penguins, has 2 parents of the same sex; etc.

Many parents have a only an instinctive reaction to this type of material being read in their children’s schools. They see their younger children as too young to be introduced to information about any sort of sexual activity, much less those involving disordered adult decisions, but homosexual activists see this as one of the best ways to change our society.

Some parents have a deeper understanding of what is going on. They see that the changes made in the 1960s and 1970s wrt sexual activity, divorce, and abortion were not followed by an era of improvement, but an era of descent into all sorts of bad things. Now the need for attention and for protest of those things which will harm our society is very clear; that while in the 1960s this sort of thing being confined to colleges was bad enough, but having this sort of thing promoted to young elementary school students, *their children, *is going too far. And unfortunately, as long as the issue of “true” transgenderism is linked with these other issues, there will be problems.

 

[St_Francis]

Here at CAF we’ve had several members say, and defend, that the murder of Dr. Tiller was justifiable, and not a serious crime (or even not a crime at all.) And these are members who claim to be faithful, practicing Catholics…

While it is true that various people at this site have speculated as to the reasoning behind saying that killing a practicing abortionist is wrong (and maybe even gone further than that), that is because they do not understand the moral reasoning behind not killing someone who kills which the Catholic Church teaches.

Since the basis for the questions about the morality of killing abortionists is that the abortionist is killing others, the basis for harming non-killers would have to be totally different and the two issues cannot be equated.

 

[Elizabeth502]

There is nothing in Catholic moral theology that supports the killing of a doctor who has performed an abortion or will in the future. Nothing. Nada. It cannot be rationalized on any grounds, regardless of the fact that in your mind it’s “a different category.”

These are the killings that can be justified in Catholic moral theology:

Killing in self-defense
Killing in defense of a born person in imminent danger of being harmed/killed right now, and you’re 'on the scene."
Killing in defense of one’s country
Killing in the action of being a uniformed officer (civil or military) in the completion of one’s duties (such as apprehending a murderer who refuses to disarm at police command, etc.)

Killing a trans person and killing a doctor who has or will perform abortions are two killings that are both vile. If there are degrees of vileness beyond that, let God decide. The point of the confirmed Christian is to keep oneself away from all evil (including acts of violence and words of violence), not to justify killing on the basis of some self-appointed crusade.

Any person or persons who do understand this are themselves confused.

 

[ahollars]

Coming onto this website and telling us how wrong we are for being too silent for your liking is not the best way to win us over.

Since you asked, “What is it that Trans’ are doing that is a sin?” Answer: they are throwing away the creation that God had made for them. God does not create mistakes. No human being is a mistake, and none of us have the right to look in the mirror and tell God that He made us the wrong gender.

I am a man. I can never be a woman, and even though science can make an illusion, I would be an abomination before God for going forward with it. I would be doomed to failure if I tried, and I would have to account for my vanity, selfishness, and scandal brought to others. (This is the same reason that women cannot be priests)

This is not about blame. God rewards and punishes our efforts, not only our results. I do not fault transsexuals for speaking out when every other moral standard in our society from marriage and chastity, to abortion, homosexuality, and accountability has been reduced to dust. It was only a matter of time before everyone felt a false sense of entitlement and sought vindication.

Transsexuals with actual genetic variations make up small percentage of the total group, most of whom have the average DNA with XX or XY working normally. This is the reason the group as a whole gets little sympathy. Most are not predestined to their condition anymore than homosexuals. The proof exists in the fact that there are documented cases of identical twins (DNA match!) where one is hetero and the other is trans or gay.

Gender identity is a condition that is learned, for all of us. We learn primarily from our parents. Why transsexualism occurs is still a mystery that needs research, but it too is a learned condition, albeit unintentional. However, that does not mean that it can be condoned anymore than other behaviors which seem to be beyond the will of the person.

The proper way to prevent non-genetic transsexualism is in childhood instruction from parents on the moral duty of the sexes in this world, and the calling to fulfill our role in God’s plan. We are not animals; we have God-given free wills to act against our instincts for the good of those we love before ourselves, and we have a responsibility to never forget that fact, as well as to use it continually throughout our lives.

Fire away…