The Reality of How Trans People are Treated

[ahollars]

Killing in defense of a born person in imminent danger of being harmed/killed right now, and you’re 'on the scene."

Actually, killing in defense of the unborn in imminent danger and you’re “on the scene” is a protected right in a few states. Ooooooooooooooooooklahoma!!!

:extrahappy:

 

[St_Francis]

There is nothing in Catholic moral theology that supports the killing of a doctor who has performed an abortion or will in the future. Nothing. Nada. It cannot be rationalized on any grounds, regardless of the fact that in your mind it’s “a different category.”

These are the killings that can be justified in Catholic moral theology:

Killing in self-defense
Killing in defense of a born person in imminent danger of being harmed/killed right now, and you’re 'on the scene."
Killing in defense of one’s country
Killing in the action of being a uniformed officer (civil or military) in the completion of one’s duties (such as apprehending a murderer who refuses to disarm at police command, etc.)

Killing a trans person and killing a doctor who has or will perform abortions are two killings that are both vile. If there are degrees of vileness beyond that, let God decide. The point of the confirmed Christian is to keep oneself away from all evil (including acts of violence and words of violence), not to justify killing on the basis of some self-appointed crusade.

Any person or persons who do understand this are themselves confused.

Yes, as I said, they are confused, they are confused about Catholic moral teaching on this point. I didn’t go into it because 1. I figured it had been gone into on threads which were actually about that topic, 2. I didn’t want to derail this thread, and 3. I just wanted to point out that the two situations in no way were equivalent.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Actually, killing in defense of the unborn in imminent danger and you’re “on the scene” is a protected right in a few states. Ooooooooooooooooooklahoma!!!

Really? Slaughtering abortion doctors is a protected right in OK? Would you cite that law for us?

 

[ahollars]

Really? Slaughtering abortion doctors is a protected right in OK? Would you cite that law for us?

No, not abortionists. That’s not what you said in your quote. However, it’s a shame that we even need laws like this one. Take a look at this…

Oklahoma legislature would allow pregnant mother to use deadly force to protect unborn

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Gender identity is a condition that is learned, for all of us.

Proof please? URLs? Experimental data?

 

[Zoe_Brain]

They did not have vaginal sex. this person did not have a vagina. Nor was this person a hetrosexual. As it was a male… Not a female.

You called a fellow human being “it”.

And what do other women who have had treatment for vaginal dysgenesis have, people who have had the same surgical procedure, and a very few who are able to bear children afterwards?

But more to the point, you called someone an “it”. Just like Allen Andrade, after he used a fire extringuisher to smash a sleeping girl’s skull in. He said “I killed it”. Because she was trans. He also said “It’s not like I went up to a schoolteacher and shot her in the head or … killed a law-abiding straight citizen.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

No, not abortionists. That’s not what you said in your quote. However, it’s a shame that we even need laws like this one. Take a look at this…

Oklahoma legislature would allow pregnant mother to use deadly force to protect unborn

OK. But she is protecting her own unborn, which is part of herself, which is part of self-defense. There is no way that the OK legislature would ever pass a law for anyone to protect someone else’s unborn, and clearly that was what I meant. Thus, killing an abortion provider will never be justified, legally or morally.

 

[Drawmack]

Proof please? URLs? Experimental data?

There was a study done in the 70’s which actually proves the opposite of what the original poster stated. There were two identical twins born, during the circumcision on one of them the machine messed up and mutilated the child’s penis. The parents were coerced into giving the child an infantile sex change operation and raising it as a girl. The child still wanted to be a boy and actually grew up with severe psychological disorders and he ended up committing suicide in his early 20’s.

 

[Dale_M]

There was a study done in the 70’s which actually proves the opposite of what the original poster stated. There were two identical twins born, during the circumcision on one of them the machine messed up and mutilated the child’s penis. The parents were coerced into giving the child an infantile sex change operation and raising it as a girl. The child still wanted to be a boy and actually grew up with severe psychological disorders and he ended up committing suicide in his early 20’s.

I believe you are referring to the case of David Reimer.
cbc.ca/news/background/reimer/

Yes, it does indicate that gender identity is innate, rather than learned. The saddest thing about this David’s tragic life, is that such surgeries have happened over and over with children born intersex.

 

[Drawmack]

I believe you are referring to the case of David Reimer.
cbc.ca/news/background/reimer/

Yes, it does indicate that gender identity is innate, rather than learned. The saddest thing about this David’s tragic life, is that such surgeries have happened over and over with children born intersex.

You are correct, thank you for the link I couldn’t remember the details but remembered reading of the study in a text book. My understanding is that more often than not if a child is born with either both or severely deformed genitals the parents are asked to choose the sex of the child and then the surgery is done what the child is an infant.

On a side note: my apologies for using the term it in the initial post, I should have used the term them. It was a slip of the tongue because of posting tired.

 

[melissa1980]

Quote:
Originally Posted by latin_rite
They did not have vaginal sex. this person did not have a vagina. Nor was this person a hetrosexual. As it was a male… Not a female.

You called a fellow human being “it”.

And what do other women who have had treatment for vaginal dysgenesis have, people who have had the same surgical procedure, and a very few who are able to bear children afterwards?

But more to the point, you called someone an “it”. Just like Allen Andrade, after he used a fire extringuisher to smash a sleeping girl’s skull in. He said "I killed it". Because she was trans. He also said “It’s not like I went up to a schoolteacher and shot her in the head or … killed a law-abiding straight citizen.”

And yet, Zoe, this is one very real indication of “The Reality of How Trans People are Treated”, the title of this thread you started. Charitable expressions are beyond some who knowingly or unknowingly or with disregard will reach out and touch others with words that hurt. Andrade acted his out in violence. Fortunately, there are others on this thread who have responded charitably, still others who reach to understand, and if they do not understand, are willing to read material you have cited in an attempt to understand.

Oh, and Drawmack, thank you for your compassionate clarification.

 

[Drawmack]

Oh, and Drawmack, thank you for your compassionate clarification.

No problem.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Coming onto this website and telling us how wrong we are for being too silent for your liking is not the best way to win us over.

Since you asked, “What is it that Trans’ are doing that is a sin?” Answer: they are throwing away the creation that God had made for them. God does not create mistakes. No human being is a mistake, and none of us have the right to look in the mirror and tell God that He made us the wrong gender.

I am a man. I can never be a woman, and even though science can make an illusion, I would be an abomination before God for going forward with it. I would be doomed to failure if I tried, and I would have to account for my vanity, selfishness, and scandal brought to others. (This is the same reason that women cannot be priests)

This is not about blame. God rewards and punishes our efforts, not only our results. I do not fault transsexuals for speaking out when every other moral standard in our society from marriage and chastity, to abortion, homosexuality, and accountability has been reduced to dust. It was only a matter of time before everyone felt a false sense of entitlement and sought vindication.

Transsexuals with actual genetic variations make up small percentage of the total group, most of whom have the average DNA with XX or XY working normally. This is the reason the group as a whole gets little sympathy. Most are not predestined to their condition anymore than homosexuals. The proof exists in the fact that there are documented cases of identical twins (DNA match!) where one is hetero and the other is trans or gay.

Gender identity is a condition that is learned, for all of us. We learn primarily from our parents. Why transsexualism occurs is still a mystery that needs research, but it too is a learned condition, albeit unintentional. However, that does not mean that it can be condoned anymore than other behaviors which seem to be beyond the will of the person.

The proper way to prevent non-genetic transsexualism is in childhood instruction from parents on the moral duty of the sexes in this world, and the calling to fulfill our role in God’s plan. We are not animals; we have God-given free wills to act against our instincts for the good of those we love before ourselves, and we have a responsibility to never forget that fact, as well as to use it continually throughout our lives.

Fire away…

Ye has read a thing or two and thinks he has the answers. Wel not for the purpose of bursting your bubble, but most of your knowledge posted here is old and far out dated. We know forexample there is more than xx and xy chromosomes, we also know that there are more aspects to deterining the sex of the developing baby than the x’s and y’s chromosomes. We even know now that x’s can mutate to y’s and vice versa. If you would look at the way my parents raised us 8 Pawloski kids, it likely would be the closest thing out there in most opinions to that transsexuaism prevention you think is possbile. Well it didn’t work I’m officially diagnosed transsexuxal or gender dysphoric, how ever you want to put it. Not everything ends up as it should be with humans. Examples? Albinos, born with 2 faces, six fingers, born blind, intersexuals( hermaphrodites),auto immune diseases like sporiatic arthraitis. becuase this is a fallen world nature makes all kinds of mistakes. Include transsexuaism on that list also.

 

[Drawmack]

Ye has read a thing or two and thinks he has the answers. Wel not for the purpose of bursting your bubble, but most of your knowledge posted here is old and far out dated. We know forexample there is more than xx and xy chromosomes, we also know that there are more aspects to deterining the sex of the developing baby than the x’s and y’s chromosomes. We even know now that x’s can mutate to y’s and vice versa. If you would look at the way my parents raised us 8 Pawloski kids, it likely would be the closest thing out there in most opinions to that transsexuaism prevention you think is possbile. Well it didn’t work I’m officially diagnosed transsexuxal or gender dysphoric, how ever you want to put it. Not everything ends up as it should be with humans. Examples? Albinos, born with 2 faces, six fingers, born blind, intersexuals( hermaphrodites),auto immune diseases like sporiatic arthraitis. becuase this is a fallen world nature makes all kinds of mistakes. Include transsexuaism on that list also.

I heard someone on a talk show bring up an interesting point last night. We know, it is indisputable, that there are people born who are male, female, and hermaphrodite. Why can’t there also be a whole host or hormonal variances between these three physical stopping points?

 

[aspawloski4th]

I heard someone on a talk show bring up an interesting point last night. We know, it is indisputable, that there are people born who are male, female, and hermaphrodite. Why can’t there also be a whole host or hormonal variances between these three physical stopping points?

Oh there is. And new ones being discovered all the time.

 

[ahollars]

Ye has read a thing or two and thinks he has the answers. Wel not for the purpose of bursting your bubble, but most of your knowledge posted here is old and far out dated. We know forexample there is more than xx and xy chromosomes, we also know that there are more aspects to deterining the sex of the developing baby than the x’s and y’s chromosomes. We even know now that x’s can mutate to y’s and vice versa. If you would look at the way my parents raised us 8 Pawloski kids, it likely would be the closest thing out there in most opinions to that transsexuaism prevention you think is possbile. Well it didn’t work I’m officially diagnosed transsexuxal or gender dysphoric, how ever you want to put it. Not everything ends up as it should be with humans. Examples? Albinos, born with 2 faces, six fingers, born blind, intersexuals( hermaphrodites),auto immune diseases like sporiatic arthraitis. becuase this is a fallen world nature makes all kinds of mistakes. Include transsexuaism on that list also.

I am more familiar with genetic mutation than you think. I have a stepdaughter with sickle-cell anemia, and two more children who are gene carriers.

And I did include it. I said most, not all. My point was that there are plenty of persons with gender identity issues who cannot point to their genetics as the cause. For transgenders to pretend that this does not occur is dishonest, and an injustice to those who are trying to hold on to church teaching regarding their call to chastity.

We each have our crosses. I have mine just as transgenders have theirs, and I am just as sinful. But, I also know the vices I have cannot be validated, and I must cleanse my soul before I die. GLBT community activists will be disappointed if they believe that doesn’t apply to them as well.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I am more familiar with genetic mutation than you think. I have a stepdaughter with sickle-cell anemia, and two more children who are gene carriers.

And I did include it. I said most, not all. My point was that there are plenty of persons with gender identity issues who cannot point to their genetics as the cause. For transgenders to pretend that this does not occur is dishonest, and an injustice to those who are trying to hold on to church teaching regarding their call to chastity.

We each have our crosses. I have mine just as transgenders have theirs, and I am just as sinful. But, I also know the vices I have cannot be validated, and I must cleanse my soul before I die. GLBT community activists will be disappointed if they believe that doesn’t apply to them as well.

Chastity is fine with me, lving as a male isn’t. It’s further from my inner being than Christianity and atheism. Funnything I have another cross also, called kidnestones, 35 in my past to be exact. No one says well its just a cross I’ll have to bear. If there was a cure for it discovered today, no legitimate Catholic authorty that would say I’m sinning by partaking in it. well kidneeystones aside, the mental pain of being in a male body and male role leaves the pain of kidneystones in the dust. This is not a chastity vs no chastity issue, its an inner gender identity issue . I should be able to take care of that, that like everyone would approve of me taking care of my prosensity to pass kidneystones.

 

[latin_rite]

You called a fellow human being “it”.

And what do other women who have had treatment for vaginal dysgenesis have, people who have had the same surgical procedure, and a very few who are able to bear children afterwards?

vaginal dysgenesis ? You’re way off the point there. saying that people who suffer from vaginal dysgenesis somehow proves that transgender is a natural condition is just way…way off.

But more to the point, you called someone an “it”. Just like Allen Andrade, after he used a fire extringuisher to smash a sleeping girl’s skull in. He said "I killed it". Because she was trans. He also said “It’s not like I went up to a schoolteacher and shot her in the head or … killed a law-abiding straight citizen.”

???
Becuase i called a fictional … Character an “it” i’m somehow equal to some looney who smashes peoples heads in when they are asleep? Your reaching. first off you come in here saying Catholics are aiding and abetting murders. but after it turned out to be a joke, you have to try and find something else to equate us to transgender killers. You’re a drama queen. Since you’re from Australia ill suggest taking a bex’s and having a good lay down

 

[Dale_M]

And I did include it. I said most, not all. My point was that there are plenty of persons with gender identity issues who cannot point to their genetics as the cause.

I’m not so sure. Research has increasingly shown that expression of genetic traits depends on environment. Epigenetics may very well have to do with transsexual origin, especially in utero. I think some of the research which Zoe has posted points in this direction.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

You’re a drama queen.

Some comments about the murder commited by Andrade:

(CNN’s legal blog)

buster brown April 20th, 2009 10:20 pm ET
The THING got what IT deserved!!! I cannot believe a man is on trial for this.

Jason April 19th, 2009 2:23 pm ET
This was a reaction to a disgusting deceit bordering by abomination, arousing a negative passion with almost every normal person.

Tim April 19th, 2009 8:37 pm ET
I am a gay man and I hope that the defendant is not convicted of murder. You cannot deceive people like this and then expect them not to be pissed.

Will Sheldon April 20th, 2009 9:03 am ET
If I meet a woman and that turned out to be a man, that person will be in grave physical danger from me.

John April 20th, 2009 11:14 am ET
I don’t know why society goes along with this form of biological fraud. Gender goes down to DNA level; fiddling with the plumbing doesn’t change it.

Sebaschen Shaw April 20th, 2009 12:22 pm ET
i feel the offender should not be held reponsible for his action all because angie is really justin. He was born a male. It is actually a case of deception, any normal and sane person would of reacted the same way. I wish i was appointed jury duty to this case.

From the main CNN forum:

Caleb April 17th, 2009 12:09 pm ET
I feel for the accused…I’d vote not guilty on all charges…that thing was asking for it. HE got what HE deserved for pretending to be a girl.

ed April 17th, 2009 12:09 pm ET
the defendant beat justin to death he didnt shoot or stab him. i would have done the same thing we need laws to prevent gays from doing this to people. society thinks homosexualty is ok that dont make it not a sin. approval is a JUDGEMENT as well as saying its wrong and sick.

Jeffery Rogers April 17th, 2009 2:13 pm ET
re-criminalize these deviants, have them register as sexual deviant persons, rescind the gay rights laws and put morality back into a well ordered society. By the way any crime against persons has an element of hate so hate crime laws are bogus.

Lord Is My Shepard April 17th, 2009 2:22 pm ET
The Lord Works in mysterious ways.

Mark April 17th, 2009 2:37 pm ET
How can you not tell that this a man? To me he just exterminated one more peice of human garbage,

Josh April 17th, 2009 3:44 pm ET
If the defendant was lied to by the victim then i completely support the defendant and feel no remorse for the victim at all and belive the defendant should be set free.

Brian April 17th, 2009 3:47 pm ET
Shouldn’t Justin be posthumously charged with a hate crime too? I think so.

isa April 17th, 2009 1:56 pm ET
I feel sorry for the defendatnt. I don’t think this was a hate crime. I hope he isn’t convicted of murder.

cea April 17th, 2009 10:40 am ET
Justifiable homicide…….

Michael Link April 17th, 2009 11:04 am ET
If it can be proven that Justin intentionally hid his sexual identity from Allen, then it is should be involuntary manslaughter.

David April 17th, 2009 12:04 pm ET
Wow, If it was a surprise you cant put the guy away for 1st degree. I cant say I wouldnt seriously harm someone in that situation.

Jose B April 17th, 2009 3:36 pm ET
It lied to him. Yes, he over reacted and killed it which he shouldn’t have, however if JP didn’t lie to him, they wouldn’t have met to begin with. This is not a hate crime but a crime.

Now, since you’re so certain that the (as it turned out alive and well) victim is male… perhaps you’d give me a definition. Or something easier, since my medical history is there for all the world to see on the other threads, what sex do you say I am?