The Reality of How Trans People are Treated

[Drawmack]

Now I’m not saying that all Catholics share the author’s views, let’s be clear on that. I’m not saying that most do, as I don’t believe that either. I’m not even saying that many do, though that’s only because I lack insufficient evidence to prove that beyond any doubt. But where is the outcry from those Catholics who deplore these views?

I am certain they are out there. I will admit that I do not do this with the trans issue. But, only because I have limited time and I spend that with the pro-life issue. I am constantly saying these same things about language used in that issue. I do not like being accused of aiding and abetting for this, we all have limited time and have to choose where to focus it. That is not aiding and abetting because when this is pointed out in other areas I do speak against it.

I am a Catholic, and I have to tell people something. I agree with what Zoe is saying. All she is saying is treat them like people. She does not care if you agree with her. She does not care if you think what she is doing is correct. She only wants you to treat her and others like her as if they were people.

Zoe, I’m sorry but the vast majority of Catholics never will. You will hear them tell you a couple things. They will tell you that what the person is saying is true and truth can’t be bad. They will tell you that murders should not be tolerated, but that hate speech does not lead to murders. Finally, they will hide behind free speech as an excuse to be belligerent, rude, and uncaring.

I have been told that I am not pro-life because I refuse to use hateful and hurtful speech to describe the opposition to the pro-life movement. This is how deeply ingrained it is in Catholics to dehumanize the opposition.

Zoe, I’m sorry to say it but the Catholic Church has become nothing more than a vehicle for hatred and bigotry as far as most members are concerned.

I just wanted you to know, that there are Catholics who feel your pain when dealing with our fellow Catholics.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Of the 16,000 plus mudrders a year how many are of tran-sexuals?

Good Question!

An average of about 0-4 in the course of robberies, crimes of passion, being in the wrong place at the wrong time etc, and around 25 as the result of simply being trans. (28 of those last year for example) Most of them trans women.

Using the American Psychiatric Association’s figures for the rate of transsexuality - 1 in 30,000 for women, 1 in 100,000 for men, in theory there should be 1 trans person killed every 5 years on average, if they had the same rate as the general population.

In fact, those APA figures are known to be out by a factor of 10, though they continue to be used to deny health care benefits as the total number of trans people is deemed too small to worry about. So it’s not nearly as bad as it appears. The expectation of murders is about 2 per year.

Our best estimate is that trans people have 15-18 times the usual rate of being murder victims (rather than 150+ if the APA figures are correct). The next most victimised group are young urban black males, 3.5 times more likely than average to be homicide victims.

Treat all these figures with suspicion. The only ones we can be 100% sure of is total number of trans deaths from homicide as a minimum figure, gleaned from press reports. Families may wish to hide that the victim was trans, for example. Motive is also problematic. Finally, the rate may be even less, as there may be far more trans people than we estimate, leading to a lower proportion of homicides per head.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Zoe, I’m sorry to say it but the Catholic Church has become nothing more than a vehicle for hatred and bigotry as far as most members are concerned…

I think that’s a little unfair. Religious creeds of all kinds have been used as an excuse for hatred, the hatred a perfectly natural instinctive reaction to those who are different. Few know what the Church’s actual position is, so they make assumptions. Catholicism is better than most.

I am less willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the Priesthood (who really should know better), but Priests are human too. Fallible. Sinners. Probably on the whole better people than I am. Certainly I’ve had a number unburden themselves on me of their fears, doubts, and lapses of Faith. It is ironic that I, who lack faith myself, seem to be able to restore it in others. Even more ironic that I know that that’s the right thing to do, no faith required.

They must hear some terrible things in the confessional box - not that any have violated that sanctity, but just ask any law enforcement officer who deals with child abuse what depravity can lurk in the souls of some of the most seemingly respectable churchgoing people. And in order to grant forgiveness, they must understand the sin first.

I guess that if I thought Catholics were such very bad people, I wouldn’t be here. It’s because I have faith in my fellow man, that so many are acting out of ignorance and fear, that I try to at least show them the information. I won’t tell them what is “right”, for I don’t know that myself. But I do ask that if after examining all I’ve told them, and praying and meditating on it, that should they see a wrong that needs righting, that they not remain complicit in it. Not even by silence, when they should be speaking out.

I’m even a little uncomfortable doing that. Mathew 7.1-5 applies. But I have to speak out too, you see. How can I ask others to do what I do not?

 

[estesbob]

I.

Zoe, I’m sorry to say it but the Catholic Church has become nothing more than a vehicle for hatred and bigotry as far as most members are concerned.

I just wanted you to know, that there are Catholics who feel your pain when dealing with our fellow Catholics.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Can you give us anything but your opinion to back this nonsense up? Can you show me any teaching of the Catholic Church that would back this up?

 

[Drawmack]

Can you give us anything but your opinion to back this nonsense up? Can you show me any teaching of the Catholic Church that would back this up?

1. I did not say that it was a teaching of the Catholic Church, I said it was the way that people in the Church behaved.
2. For proof, reread your post. For additional proof, search these forums for the abortion threads that I have posted on. Though one of them got pulled because even the moderators of this forum do not want to hear that it is wrong to be rude, intolerant, hate-monger against people who disagree with the Church.

 

[estesbob]

1. I did not say that it was a teaching of the Catholic Church, I said it was the way that people in the Church behaved.
2. For proof, reread your post. For additional proof, search these forums for the abortion threads that I have posted on. Though one of them got pulled because even the moderators of this forum do not want to hear that it is wrong to be rude, intolerant, hate-monger against people who disagree with the Church.

Reread my post??? For what???

 

[Drawmack]

Reread my post??? For what???

Zoe deserves her thread not to be highjacked.

 

[estesbob]

Zoe deserves her thread not to be highjacked.

You offered no evidence to back up your assertion other than somone hurt your feelings in a Abortion thread.

 

[Drawmack]

You offered no evidence to back up your assertion other than somone hurt your feelings in a Abortion thread.

I simply told you that I refuse to high jack Zoe’s thread. If you want to persist in pursuing something I said to her, which was on topic, in this thread in an off topic manner please start a new thread where I will be happy to post.

 

[Dale_M]

You offered no evidence to back up your assertion other than somone hurt your feelings in a Abortion thread.

Bob, what does this discussion have to do with abortion?

 

[St_Francis]

Zoe, I’m sorry to say it but **the Catholic Church has **become nothing more than a vehicle for hatred and bigotry as far as most members are concerned.

1. I did not say that it was a teaching of the Catholic Church, I said it was the way that people in the Church behaved.

When one says “the Catholic Church…” the implication is that it is a teaching of the Church. You need to be more careful about how you put things. If a lot of Catholics are doing something which is *against *what the Church teaches, then you should not impute those bad actions to *the Church, *but to the people.

 

[Drawmack]

Zoe, I’m sorry to say it but the Catholic Church has become nothing more than a vehicle for hatred and bigotry as far as most members are concerned.

1. I did not say that it was a teaching of the Catholic Church, I said it was the way that people in the Church behaved.

When one says “the Catholic Church…” the implication is that it is a teaching of the Church. You need to be more careful about how you put things. If a lot of Catholics are doing something which is against what the Church teaches, then you should not impute those bad actions to the Church, but to the people.

If you read the entire quote it says as far as most members are concerned. It clearly, within the sentence, states that it is as far as most members are concerned. This sentence clearly implies that it is not a teaching of the Church, but rather an attitude of the members. I’m not even sure I could be more clear about that.

Now, would you please stop attempting to high jack this thread by making off-topic false allegations about me?

 

[estesbob]

If you read the entire quote it says as far as most members are concerned. It clearly, within the sentence, states that it is as far as most members are concerned. This sentence clearly implies that it is not a teaching of the Church, but rather an attitude of the members. I’m not even sure I could be more clear about that.

Now, would you please stop attempting to high jack this thread by making off-topic false allegations about me?

Looks like you are the one who hijacked the thread. Did you really think you couild make wild unfounded accusations about members of the Church and go unchalleged?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Looks like you are the one who hijacked the thread. Did you really think you couild make wild unfounded accusations about members of the Church and go unchalleged?

Well it’s not hard to say you have posted alot here lately , you really have not said very much.

 

[aspawloski4th]

When one says “the Catholic Church…” the implication is that it is a teaching of the Church. You need to be more careful about how you put things. If a lot of Catholics are doing something which is *against *what the Church teaches, then you should not impute those bad actions to *the Church, *but to the people.

Lets not split hair please. We all know what he was implying.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Prove that they’re unfounded - in the light of the CatholicExchange article and others.

The public is being deceived by the media and activists into believing that so-called ‘transsexuals’ were born with biological problems that are remedied by surgery and that it is possible to change your sex.

No one can change sex; it is written in DNA on every cell of our bodies.

Ignoring of course those with 47xxy chromosomes, mosaics of 46xx/46xy etc. And those men with De La Chapelle Syndrome and 46xx chromosomes, those women with CAI syndrome and 46xy chromosomes etc. Basically, ignoring biological reality.

While some may simply want to be the other sex, others may actually come to believe that they really are the other sex, that nature made a mistake and gave them the body of one sex and the brain of the other. Such a delusion is very difficult to treat…

It’s really difficult to treat when MRI scans, autopsies, simple tests of hearing, and smell, and so on all shore up this “delusion”.

While persons who want to be the other sex desperately want to believe that they were born with this problem, there is no evidence for this. Some men and women who want to be the other sex failed to identify with their birth sex as children. This condition, known as childhood gender (sexual) identity disorder (GID), is preventable and treatable.

No evidence for this… apart from 50 years of research and over 300 papers, repeatable experiments. And now inventing new language in order to further stigmatise the victims as sexual perverts. Even 5 year old kids. It’s all a gigantic conspiracy by Scientists and Psychiatrists and Surgeons and Activists according to the author, a widespread one involving groups in many nations.

This goes beyond honest error and ignorance. It becomes bearing false witness. And where is the outcry from the laity at this?

You’ve asked for proof, as you should have. Now show me your evidence that the contention is incorrect. Merely calling it “nonsense” and a “wild accusation” does not make it so. Perhaps CatholicExchange’s article isn’t being widely circulated in Churches as a pamphlet. Perhaps it is not mainstream. If not, show evidence of this, the ball’s in your court.

Do you have anything to say about the rates of murder of trans people? You asked for the numbers. I provided them. Now you stay silent. Why? You see, by the tone of your posts, you illustrate to other readers whether there’s a problem or not.

Moving right along:

Rabbi Waldenberg brings sources from centuries ago of women who changed into men. Exactly what the phenomenon in question was isn’t clear from what he writes, but it is clear that to the naked eye, a person or persons who were female by appearance became male by appearance. Discussing whether such a person, if married, would require a writ of divorce from his/her husband, one of the sources cited by Rabbi Waldenberg writes that he/she does not, “because this woman has many signs of being a man which are apparent to the visual sense, she does not require a writ of divorce, because she is truly a man.” The source continues to say that in the morning blessings, where a man says, “Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, Who has not made me a woman,” such a man should end the blessing instead, “Who has changed me into a man” (Rabbi Waldenberg states elsewhere that a male who becomes female would say, “Who has changed me according to His will,” rather than the standard, “Who has made me according to His will,” which is said by women).

Anyone familiar with the biology will instantly recognise that the “souces from centuries ago” referenced here refer to cases of 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency. The Judaic faith has recognised and dealt with such issues, yet it seems the Church is struggling with them, and is silent - or worse, complicit in allowing the laity to espouse misinformation and outright lies.

"Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, Who has changed me according to His will."

 

[Drawmack]

Looks like you are the one who hijacked the thread. Did you really think you couild make wild unfounded accusations about members of the Church and go unchalleged?

I made an on topic post talking directly to Zoe. Others have insisted on talking about one sentence within that post in an off-topic manner and not even talking about what I actually said. Would you please quit attempting to high-jack Zoe’s thread?

 

[aspawloski4th]

I made an on topic post talking directly to Zoe. Others have insisted on talking about one sentence within that post in an off-topic manner and not even talking about what I actually said. Would you please quit attempting to high-jack Zoe’s thread?

No he won’t. He can’t deal with science and wants this topic brushed off like many others.

 

[Drawmack]

No he won’t. He can’t deal with science and wants this topic brushed off like many others.

Me thinks ignoring any more off topic accusations is the best tact.

This post in no way implies that this is an official Church teaching.

 

[Sueliz]

Zoe said: “No evidence for this… apart from 50 years of research and over 300 papers, repeatable experiments…This goes beyond honest error and ignorance. It becomes bearing false witness. And where is the outcry from the laity at this?”

With regard to the referenced article in Catholic Exchange, it is one of the single most slanted, biased, and ill informed pieces I have read on the issue of classic transsexuality in at least 15 years. Its premise is in total disregard of the science and research conducted on this issue since at least the mid 1940s. The article was agenda driven, sprinkled with not so subtle insults meant to do nothing more than humiliate and delegitimize the tens and tens and tens of thousands of post operative transsexuals walking on the planet…good, productive, moral people who simply want to live their lives in peace. To say the article in Catholic Exchange goes “beyond honest error and ignorance” is a gross understatement.