The reason satan had to carry out the crucifixion

[Bounds]

I cannot believe you do not get this by now. Are you suggesting that good men did good deeds by crucifying Christ?

The devil was not going to take his spell away from those that were under his control.

God is not subject to the designs of Satan. Therefore Jesus was crucified it must have been because he allowed it to happen, and not because Satan caused it.

What I am saying is that Christ let himself be sacrificed because it was according to his plan, not the plan of Satan. Nothing else.

 

[R_C]

Therefore all of them that shouted and did not recognize HIM were under the spell of satan. Therefore all sin is of the devil.

I am not sure why you are arguing this. If one is under the spell of satan, they still commit sin by their own will. When one rejects God, they reject truth, and therefore they crucify Christ.

Figuratively and literally. In this case, those that shouted for Barabbas and laid down traps and falsely accused him, were all under the spell of satan, since they were not recognizing and in fact rejecting the Christ.

I cannot believe you do not get this by now. Are you suggesting that good men did good deeds by crucifying Christ?

The devil was not going to take his spell away from those that were under his control.

I think there is something peculiar in your understanding of how the Evil One works. Not everyone who sins is under the control of Satan. Satan can only act by suggestion on the soul. There is an individual, God-given freedom to choose that every soul has. Souls can resist the devil - this is true even for someone possessed. Satan can only influence a soul by suggestion, but other factors also do so: our fallen nature, the wordly things…some refer to the three, as a whole, as “the spirit against Christ”. But this “spirit against Christ” is not Satan himself, and those who are sinning under the influence of their imperfections, of the world, or even of the temptations of demons, are not under the control of Satan. Only a truly possessed individual is under the control of the Evil One (such as the naked man at the sepulcher, or the young girl that followed s. Paul for days).

 

[CatholicKnight3]

I think there is something peculiar in your understanding of how the Evil One works. Not everyone who sins is under the control of Satan. Satan can only act by suggestion on the soul. There is an individual, God-given freedom to choose that every soul has. Souls can resist the devil - this is true even for someone possessed. Satan can only influence a soul by suggestion, but other factors also do so: our fallen nature, the wordly things…some refer to the three, as a whole, as “the spirit against Christ”. But this “spirit against Christ” is not Satan himself, and those who are sinning under the influence of their imperfections, of the world, or even of the temptations of demons, are not under the control of Satan. Only a truly possessed individual is under the control of the Evil One (such as the naked man at the sepulcher, or the young girl that followed s. Paul for days).

John 1:3-8

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:3-13

And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself just as He is pure. 4 Everyone who commits sin also breaks the law; sin is the breaking of law. 5 You know that He was revealed so that He might take away sins, and there is no sin in Him. 6 Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 The one who commits sin is of the Devil, for the Devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the Devil’s works. 9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children-and the Devil’s children-are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother.

John 8

43: “Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.”

He repeated this over and over, but their minds were so against anything He had to say that it went unheard.

“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

“When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

The devil was the original murderer and denier of truth. I have heard it said that “whenever someone lies they are honoring Satan.” Jewish tradition taught that Satan’s lie had led to Adam’s death. The implication here is that Satan wanted to kill Jesus and the Pharisees were attempting to carry out his plans.

Jesus said that Satan is a murderer, liar, and in fact the father of lies. According to translators, the statement “the father of lies” might possibly be more accurately interpreted as the “the father of liars,” which would have been a more personal attack on the Pharisees.

The ruler of this world is the devil…

Ephesians 2:2
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following he prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.

I do not know what else I need to post to show where in scripture that it clearly indicates that the ruler of this world has cast a spell and we have all been deceived.

Hence, those that sin are all doing the bidding of the devil. It does not mean that the “devil made anyone do it.” It means that unless you come to believe then you are under that spell.

The crucifixion in essence was the sin of all sins. All of our sins crucify the Son of man. WHEN WE SIN. Not IF we sin.

The ultimate rejection of the Lord is the crucifixion of Christ. From the eternal point of view, this is literal. The devil, if he did not carry out the crucifixion would be divided against himself, and therefore his kingdom would not stand. As Christ pointed out that satan cannot cast out satan.

It is unreal how much people do not know about the adversary and our battle we have inside against the principalities of this world. It also amazes me how we do not fully understand how the crucifixion is our victory over the power of death that satan had over us.

 

[irenaeuslyons]

This has been a stumbling block and a source of doubts for me for a while. It seemed like a contradiction when satan spoke through Peter when he wanted Jesus to avoid being crucified, and then entered Judas in order to betray Him to be crucified.

The notion that satan had no clue is a bit absurd. First of all Jesus made it public that he was going to be slain. Jesus predicted several times that he was going to be crucified, and would rise again several times. Certainly, by making it public, the devil would have known the purpose of the crucifixion. The devil is a lot of things. Dumb is not one of them.

So, why would the devil need to carry out the crucifixion even though he was aware of what it would mean?

The answer is in the gospel. When Christ says to the pharisees that any kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. There it is. The devil had to carry out the crucifixion cause that is the ultimate sin. Meaning in order for the kingdom of the devil to remain, he would need to carry out the crucifixion. Cause that is what ALL sin essentially does. Thefore, the devil had only ONE chance for the crucifixion to not happen and that was to tempt Christ to willfully turn His back on the Father’s will.

Which was why the satan constantly tempted Christ to come down from the cross. He was mocking Him through the thief. He was tempting Him through the pharisees. They were yelling at Him and tempting Him to come down.

That was the only chance satan had, and that is why he needed to carry out the crucifixion. Cause it is based on the fact that it is the ultimate sin, and if it was not carried out, then the kingdom of the devil would not stand.

Satan is intelligent through experience and intellect. However, he cannot tell what the future is. Satan entered Judas to betray Jesus. I don’t think this can be confused with being primarily culpable in the actual outcome of crucifixion which only happened after a trial. Judas had no part in that judgement. When Peter was called Satan, it was because he opposed the Passion. Peter wanted a military general who would conquer like the old kings of Israel. Not a Messiah who would lay down his life. Jesus said he laid down his life because it was his will to do so, as the scripture says. Nobody forced him to do it because sacrificial love cannot be forced. It must be freely given.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Satan is intelligent through experience and intellect. However, he cannot tell what the future is. Satan entered Judas to betray Jesus. I don’t think this can be confused with being primarily culpable in the actual outcome of crucifixion which only happened after a trial. Judas had no part in that judgement. When Peter was called Satan, it was because he opposed the Passion. Peter wanted a military general who would conquer like the old kings of Israel. Not a Messiah who would lay down his life. Jesus said he laid down his life because it was his will to do so, as the scripture says. Nobody forced him to do it because sacrificial love cannot be forced. It must be freely given.

Again, there were reasons why the thief and the unbelievers were mocking Him to come down from the cross. I do believe the devil was jeering and tempting Christ to turn away from the Fathers will. Meaning, the devil was speaking through them.

ALL sin is the rejection of God. All sin eminates from the devil and everyone that does sin is of the devil

The devil is not just an entity that cannot think of future events, and he certainly knew the plans of Christ, since Christ openly said what was going to happen. He openly said it He made a few predictions of His passion.

So, the theological conundrum that happens for us, why would satan have his unbelievers crucify Christ? Cause those under his spell are already under his spell.

This is a theological discussion. However, it is affirmed in scripture about those that do sin. Those that do sin are under the spell of satan, and do crucify Christ.

 

[mangy_dog]

Again, there were reasons why the thief and the unbelievers were mocking Him to come down from the cross. I do believe the devil was jeering and tempting Christ to turn away from the Fathers will. Meaning, the devil was speaking through them.

ALL sin is the rejection of God. All sin eminates from the devil and everyone that does sin is of the devil

The devil is not just an entity that cannot think of future events, and he certainly knew the plans of Christ, since Christ openly said what was going to happen. He openly said it He made a few predictions of His passion.

So, the theological conundrum that happens for us, why would satan have his unbelievers crucify Christ? Cause those under his spell are already under his spell.

This is a theological discussion. However, it is affirmed in scripture about those that do sin. Those that do sin are under the spell of satan, and do crucify Christ.

You’re still attributing too much to the Devil. Remember that sin and temptation to sin comes from 3 places and not just the Devil.

Our own concupiscience would’ve been sufficient for the fall of Adam and Eve and usually is enough for any of us to fall into sin.

But when you combine it with the suggestions and instigations of Lucifer and his demons-a little eye candy will usually push us over the edge. Concupiscience is a major factor, followed closely by the influence of the world-what we see, taste, smell, touch-what we covet. Lucifer gives us the nudge that we need to wrap it all up.

The means, signs and symptoms of what we display make the Devils actions seem prophetic by result.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

You’re still attributing too much to the Devil. Remember that sin and temptation to sin comes from 3 places and not just the Devil.

Our own concupiscience would’ve been sufficient for the fall of Adam and Eve and usually is enough for any of us to fall into sin.

But when you combine it with the suggestions and instigations of Lucifer and his demons-a little eye candy will usually push us over the edge. Concupiscience is a major factor, followed closely by the influence of the world-what we see, taste, smell, touch-what we covet. Lucifer gives us the nudge that we need to wrap it all up.

The means, signs and symptoms of what we display make the Devils actions seem prophetic by result.

Yeah, seem prophetic, but not actually prophetic.

When Christ says that ALL sin comes from the devil for he was the sinner from the beginning means just that. Now, in order for the devil to carry out his plans, he needs those who are under his control to do his bidding.

Well, the ruler of this world (Christ calls him the ruler of this world) has the WHOLE WORLD deceived, we all do his bidding. In order for his kingdom to remain, he cannot cast out himself. As Christ says that satan cannot cast out satan. Meaning, those under his spell (which is everyone that does not believe in Christ) carry out the works of the devil.

So, in the case of the crucifixion, God put the devil into a paradox. Now, I do not believe the devil really knew the plans, until it was revealed by Christ when He predicted His passion openly.

In order for the devil to stop the crucifxion he only had one option. The only option was to tempt Christ to willfully turn away from the Father’s will. Which is what sin is. Our turning away from the Father’s will. Sin, is truly about us ignoring the Fathers will. Sin, is about rejecting God. Sin, is the crucifixion.

You can almost truly sense the desperation on behalf of the devil as he mocked Christ through the bad thief and the pharisees. When they called to him to come down from the cross. I believe the devil was speaking through them, just as he was speaking through Peter when he said we cannot allow this to happen.

Now there had been a stumbling block for me for a long time in regards to what seems like a contradiction that the devil would enter Judas to betray Him to have Him crucified, and speaking through Peter to prevent Him from being crucified. Yes, that was my foolish human understanding. It was an issue for a while for me. I know most people did not consider those things.

Can we say it was not satan speaking through Peter? Well, Jesus said, STAND BEHIND ME SATAN when Peter said that. Are we to then believe that satan did not speak through Peter?

No, that was the first temptation of satan through Peter to get Jesus to wilfully turn His back on the Father. From that point satan constantly jeered and tempted Christ to turn His back on His mission.

 

[mangy_dog]

Yeah, seem prophetic, but not actually prophetic.

When Christ says that ALL sin comes from the devil for he was the sinner from the beginning means just that. Now, in order for the devil to carry out his plans, he needs those who are under his control to do his bidding.

Well, the ruler of this world (Christ calls him the ruler of this world) has the WHOLE WORLD deceived, we all do his bidding. In order for his kingdom to remain, he cannot cast out himself. As Christ says that satan cannot cast out satan. Meaning, those under his spell (which is everyone that does not believe in Christ) carry out the works of the devil.

So, in the case of the crucifixion, God put the devil into a paradox. Now, I do not believe the devil really knew the plans, until it was revealed by Christ when He predicted His passion openly.

In order for the devil to stop the crucifxion he only had one option. The only option was to tempt Christ to willfully turn away from the Father’s will. Which is what sin is. Our turning away from the Father’s will. Sin, is truly about us ignoring the Fathers will. Sin, is about rejecting God. Sin, is the crucifixion.

You can almost truly sense the desperation on behalf of the devil as he mocked Christ through the bad thief and the pharisees. When they called to him to come down from the cross. I believe the devil was speaking through them, just as he was speaking through Peter when he said we cannot allow this to happen.

Now there had been a stumbling block for me for a long time in regards to what seems like a contradiction that the devil would enter Judas to betray Him to have Him crucified, and speaking through Peter to prevent Him from being crucified. Yes, that was my foolish human understanding. It was an issue for a while for me. I know most people did not consider those things.

Can we say it was not satan speaking through Peter? Well, Jesus said, STAND BEHIND ME SATAN when Peter said that. Are we to then believe that satan did not speak through Peter?

No, that was the first temptation of satan through Peter to get Jesus to wilfully turn His back on the Father. From that point satan constantly jeered and tempted Christ to turn His back on His mission.

You and I are talking about the same thing from different angles. It is one thing to succumb to the suggestions and temptations of Lucifer and another to be possessed by the demon.

Peter must’ve been flabbergasted when Jesus addressed the Devil,“get behind me Satan”. Peter must’ve slowly understood that what he was thinking was not in line with Jesus’ message and that he had inadvertantly given in to the thought suggested by Satan. But it was not a case of the Devil entering Peter.

On the other hand, Judas must’ve been slowly but surely depleting from his soul the grace that allows us to resist and repent from tempation and sin. His is more a case of “the devil entered into him”.

There are many other opposing parallels between Judas and Peter.

 

[mangy_dog]

satan entered the heart of Judas to go and betray Christ.

The devil spoke through Peter, when Peter said (after Jesus’s first prediction of His passion) and said we cannot allow this to happen.

The devil was allowed to go tempt Christ in the desert.

The devil spoke through countless pharisees and they accused Christ over and over again.

You do not think the crucifixion of an innocent Christ was sin?

You do not see that role of the devil in this?!?!?!?!?!

What have you been taught?!

Sin is of such severe and destructive nature that it would’ve forever separated us from God-were it not for the sacrifice of a Divine Being, Jesus Christ.

Sin had already entered into the work of creation through the influence of Lucifer and our own concupiscience. Left unchecked it would have destroyed all of creation.

Not just any atonement would suffice: Bulls and calfs-It had to be Jesus.

The Crucifixion is the necessary Sacrifice-the only atonement that would be acceptable to the Father.

Pater aeterne, offero tibi, corpus et sanguinem, animam et divinitatem, dilectissimi filium tuum Dominum nostrum Iesum Cristum. In propitiationem pro peccatis nostris et totius mundi.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

You and I are talking about the same thing from different angles. It is one thing to succumb to the suggestions and temptations of Lucifer and another to be possessed by the demon.

Peter must’ve been flabbergasted when Jesus addressed the Devil,“get behind me Satan”. Peter must’ve slowly understood that what he was thinking was not in line with Jesus’ message and that he had inadvertantly given in to the thought suggested by Satan. But it was not a case of the Devil entering Peter.

When Jesus says to Peter, get behind me satan, when Peter says that to Jesus, to me it is clear the devil spoke through Peter. Now, one does not need to be fully possessed by the devil in order for him to use us or speak through us. Jesus even says there are different degrees of possession. Christ mentioned this when He was referring to someone that was fully possessed. Christ says this type of possession requires specific prayers. Remember that?

Here is the verse in Mark chapter 9.

7And one of the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute;18and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it.”19And He answered them and said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!”20They brought the boy to Him. When he saw Him, immediately the spirit threw him into a convulsion, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth.21And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood.22“It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!”23And Jesus said to him, “ ‘If You can?’ **All things are possible to him who believes.”24Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.”25When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again.”26After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, “He is dead!”27But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up.28When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, “Why could we not drive it out?”29And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”
**

On the other hand, Judas must’ve been slowly but surely depleting from his soul the grace that allows us to resist and repent from tempation and sin. His is more a case of “the devil entered into him”…

There are different degrees of possession. Also, there is specific power demons do have that is misunderstood. To just clarify my pov. This is not a case of “the devil made me do it.” We all have free will and indeed we are responsible for our own actions. I mean we did inherit the sin of obfuscating from Adam along with disobedience. Do not forget that Adam said, “The woman YOU put here tricked me.” Want to make God really mad? Make an excuse for your disobedience. Disobedience is bad enough, but does not compare to holding God in contempt for our sins. Which is what ever excuse does.

 

[mangy_dog]

When Jesus says to Peter, get behind me satan, when Peter says that to Jesus, to me it is clear the devil spoke through Peter. Now, one does not need to be fully possessed by the devil in order for him to use us or speak through us. Jesus even says there are different degrees of possession. Christ mentioned this when He was referring to someone that was fully possessed. Christ says this type of possession requires specific prayers. Remember that?

Here is the verse in Mark chapter 9.

7And one of the crowd answered Him, “Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute;18and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it.”19And He answered them and said, “O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!”20They brought the boy to Him. When he saw Him, immediately the spirit threw him into a convulsion, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth.21And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood.22“It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!”23And Jesus said to him, “ ‘If You can?’ **All things are possible to him who believes.”24Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.”25When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again.”26After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, “He is dead!”27But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up.28When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, “Why could we not drive it out?”29And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”
**

There are different degrees of possession. Also, there is specific power demons do have that is misunderstood. To just clarify my pov. This is not a case of “the devil made me do it.” We all have free will and indeed we are responsible for our own actions. I mean we did inherit the sin of obfuscating from Adam along with disobedience. Do not forget that Adam said, “The woman YOU put here tricked me.” Want to make God really mad? Make an excuse for your disobedience. Disobedience is bad enough, but does not compare to holding God in contempt for our sins. Which is what ever excuse does.

Indeed,

Which is why we need a life of prayer and a life of the spirit, nurtured by the Sacraments of Confession and Communion-and pray the Rosary everyday.

As opposed to a life of instant pleasure and a life of the body.

God’s grace is free to everyone-undeserved but nevertheless, free. God’s grace is also resistible. We can choose to give in to the temptation and eventual sin for the benefit we may see in committing this sin or that sin.
Usually we see it not only as “the benefit to me” but also as “the lesser of two evils”.

Without grace-repentance is impossible-without repentance there is no forgiveness.

Lord grant us your grace so that we may love and serve you…and be a witness unto others.

 

[Love4All]

I can’t tell if you are arguing against or in favor of what I posted…so…thanks??

It isn’t either/or. Our aim in discussing these things ought to be to arrive closer to the fullness of Truth, and Truth is Infinite, so none of our individual opinions will ever be that fullness of Truth.

So I’m not so much agreeing or disagreeing, as I am refining and “striving earnestly for that Faith once delivered up to all the Saints.”

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I put it down to sheer hatred. One of the characteristics of evil people is that they cannot restrain themselves beyond a certain point. Take Adolf Hitler - when some of the generals and miitary plotted to assassinate him and nearly succeeded, Hitler was beside himself with rage.

Instead of standing back and asking himself why they would want to assassinate him in the first place, and modifying his behaviour accordingly, he turned on his critics. Even Rommel wasn’t immune, being given a choice between suicide or a military trial and execution.

Hitler couldn’t help himself. He was so full of evil and hatred, that his judgement had become completely warped. At a point when Germany was losing the war, he destroyed some of his most capable officers and commanders. In fact, by this time the Allies weren’t even interested in assassinating him as he was so helpful to their war effort with his stupid decisions.

And I think the devil is much the same. Here was the Son of God in the flesh, and the devil had the opportunity to have him ridiculed, scourged, and crucified.

Secondly there wouild be the pressure of his own cohorts, the demons. What holds the kingdom of Hell together? It can’t be love or loyalty. About the only thing that would keep the demons together in a common cause would be their absolute hatred of God. Since they had God in the flesh under their power in the form of Pharasaical legalism and Roman militarism, why pass up this opportunity to really hurt their enemy?

To my mind, sheer hatred overcame their deep down knowledge that this was the beginning of the end. But since they hate the truth, both the deveil and the demons would have preferred to subject the Son of God to the brutality of the cross. And of course, they could put Him to the test to see if He would still remain forgiving, or fail.

They took the gamble and lost, even though Christ had spken openly about His forthcoming death and resurrection. They hated Him too much not to.

 

[Gatekeeper3]

Satan tried to STOP the crucifixion–Satan was well aware of Jesus’ mission to die to set us free. Satan also knew if Jesus failed he had a better chance of not being doomed himself. The very thing that was Satan’s prize, the earth and the souls on it was also what Jesus prized, the church, his bride. Satan did everything possible to prevent the crucifixion or at least stall it so it didn’t fulfill scripture. Satan did enter Judas, but he had a completely different motive for doing that. There are two reasons Satan used Judas. He enter him so late during passover, late the night before passover started, because he knew it would be to short of a notice to get the trials over with in time for the crucifixion, thus holding Jesus in jail till after the passover nullifying scripture. Satan also knew Jewish laws did not allow a follower of someone to turn that person in for a capital crime. Satan was hoping that since Judas turned Him in it would stall the trial until after the passover.